Mercedes-AMG 6.3 Liter Naturally Aspirated V8 Unveiled

[RedRooster]

Originally posted by: Triumph
I know exactly how horsepower and torque relate. I know exactly how they affect a car. I know how gearing affects a car. I'll wave my e-penis here and say that I've done more calculations concerning the principles of force, torque, and power than 99.99% of people on this forum. </e-penis> And the fact of the matter remains, you cannot increase horsepower through gearing.

I never claimed that the two engines can make the same horsepower values and different torque values at the same RPM. I know why this can't be true. I also stated that the two cars would have to have gearing optimized for their respective power curves. Thus in the end, the two engines would have the exact same top speed.

I am telling you with unequivocal certainty, that top speed is limited by horsepower. You can take the inner workings of a car completely out of the equation. Assume a cube, flowing through air, propelled by a magical force-creating device unknown to man. The equation for how much power that this device must put out to achieve speed V is

Power = drag force * velocity
Power = (0.5*Cd*density*frontal area*V^2)*V

There's no torque or gearing considerations. Those are only methods of optimizing or tuning horsepower for an application.

:thumbsup:

Torque gets you moving, horsepower keeps you there.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: DonVito

. . . which makes the new power pack by AMG the world?s most powerful naturally aspirated eight-cylinder production engine . . .

Won't the new Z06 also have similar BHP and more torque out of a NA V-8? Obviously it's not yet in production, but still . . .

Yes. The Z06 engine would have no problem putting out more power than this, and more torque, too. I hear Chevy tuned it back a little bit to keep it at 500 hp.

It actually has 505hp now, wouldn't be that hard to squeeze out another 5 hp to match the AMG or surpass it

 

[funboy6942]

HMMMM carburated engine and it will pass the strict emmisions laws of the us?????

 

[RedRooster]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: RedRooster
Isn't F1 going to V8s in a couple years?
Good to see MB getting some of the R&D out of the way early. Of course they'll have to lighten up the internals and rev it three times higher and you've got yourself an F1 engine, but in its current form it'll be testing on the streets for 3 years at least.

lol, it doesn't work that way. Conversely, since F1 is a much harsher condition, tricks they learn from F1 will help them build more reliable street car engines.

Will F1 engines not have to last something like 6 races or something absurd when the new rules come to pass? I would think SOME of the research done on this engine could be carried over to F1 development. Cuz they sure aren't going to throw it out and start from scratch. Costs are being cut in F1.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: funboy42
HMMMM carburated engine and it will pass the strict emmisions laws of the us?????

Who said it's carbureted? It's fuel injected.

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: funboy42
HMMMM carburated engine and it will pass the strict emmisions laws of the us?????

Who said it's carbureted? It's fuel injected.

I was ready to jump all over you because Naturally Aspirated means carburated and then I looked more into the ad prepairing myself to do so it said:
The World's Most Powerful Normally Aspirated

So I was mislead by OP saying naturally Aspirated and took it as being such when it is not. My bad.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: funboy42
HMMMM carburated engine and it will pass the strict emmisions laws of the us?????

Who said it's carbureted? It's fuel injected.

I was ready to jump all over you because Naturally Aspirated means carburated and then I saw what the ad prepairing myself to do so it said:
The World's Most Powerful Normally Aspirated

So I was mislead by OP saying naturally Aspirated and took it as being such when it is not. My bad.

naturally aspirated means it doesn't have forced induction, not that it has a carb.

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: funboy42
HMMMM carburated engine and it will pass the strict emmisions laws of the us?????

Who said it's carbureted? It's fuel injected.

I was ready to jump all over you because Naturally Aspirated means carburated and then I saw what the ad prepairing myself to do so it said:
The World's Most Powerful Normally Aspirated

So I was mislead by OP saying naturally Aspirated and took it as being such when it is not. My bad.

naturally aspirated means it doesn't have forced induction, not that it has a carb.

Well then my appolgies. when I have ever hear the term I was always refered to a carburated motor. After doing a definition search on google it can be carbed OR injected and I didnt know. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: funboy42
HMMMM carburated engine and it will pass the strict emmisions laws of the us?????

Who said it's carbureted? It's fuel injected.

I was ready to jump all over you because Naturally Aspirated means carburated and then I looked more into the ad prepairing myself to do so it said:
The World's Most Powerful Normally Aspirated

So I was mislead by OP saying naturally Aspirated and took it as being such when it is not. My bad.

I take "naturally aspirated" to mean induction through the means of ordinary atmospheric pressure.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: funboy42
HMMMM carburated engine and it will pass the strict emmisions laws of the us?????

Who said it's carbureted? It's fuel injected.

I was ready to jump all over you because Naturally Aspirated means carburated and then I looked more into the ad prepairing myself to do so it said:
The World's Most Powerful Normally Aspirated

So I was mislead by OP saying naturally Aspirated and took it as being such when it is not. My bad.

I take "naturally aspirated" to mean induction through the means of ordinary atmospheric pressure.

That's what it means. No blower. There is no other meaning. Anything else (supercharged,turbocharged) is forced air induction, or forced induction.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Triumph
I know exactly how horsepower and torque relate. I know exactly how they affect a car. I know how gearing affects a car. I'll wave my e-penis here and say that I've done more calculations concerning the principles of force, torque, and power than 99.99% of people on this forum. </e-penis> And the fact of the matter remains, you cannot increase horsepower through gearing.

I never claimed that the two engines can make the same horsepower values and different torque values at the same RPM. I know why this can't be true. I also stated that the two cars would have to have gearing optimized for their respective power curves. Thus in the end, the two engines would have the exact same top speed.

I am telling you with unequivocal certainty, that top speed is limited by horsepower. You can take the inner workings of a car completely out of the equation. Assume a cube, flowing through air, propelled by a magical force-creating device unknown to man. The equation for how much power that this device must put out to achieve speed V is

Power = drag force * velocity
Power = (0.5*Cd*density*frontal area*V^2)*V

There's no torque or gearing considerations. Those are only methods of optimizing or tuning horsepower for an application.

So essentially you're saying that the car with more torque would get to its top speed faster, but the top speed would be the same as the car with same hp but less torque?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

It actually has 505hp now, wouldn't be that hard to squeeze out another 5 hp to match the AMG or surpass it

Wow - I hadn't seen the numbers. 0-60 in 3.7 seconds is insane, and GM doesn't historically exaggerate these kinds of claims.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Triumph
I know exactly how horsepower and torque relate. I know exactly how they affect a car. I know how gearing affects a car. I'll wave my e-penis here and say that I've done more calculations concerning the principles of force, torque, and power than 99.99% of people on this forum. </e-penis> And the fact of the matter remains, you cannot increase horsepower through gearing.

I never claimed that the two engines can make the same horsepower values and different torque values at the same RPM. I know why this can't be true. I also stated that the two cars would have to have gearing optimized for their respective power curves. Thus in the end, the two engines would have the exact same top speed.

I am telling you with unequivocal certainty, that top speed is limited by horsepower. You can take the inner workings of a car completely out of the equation. Assume a cube, flowing through air, propelled by a magical force-creating device unknown to man. The equation for how much power that this device must put out to achieve speed V is

Power = drag force * velocity
Power = (0.5*Cd*density*frontal area*V^2)*V

There's no torque or gearing considerations. Those are only methods of optimizing or tuning horsepower for an application.

So essentially you're saying that the car with more torque would get to its top speed faster, but the top speed would be the same as the car with same hp but less torque?

I never said anything about acceleration, but you got the second part right.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Ktulu

It actually has 505hp now, wouldn't be that hard to squeeze out another 5 hp to match the AMG or surpass it

Wow - I hadn't seen the numbers. 0-60 in 3.7 seconds is insane, and GM doesn't historically exaggerate these kinds of claims.

you think that's insane, try this on for size

 

[Ns1]

to all you haters, AMG cars are by far the most fun automatic ever.


Really. You have to drive it to be a believer. E55/SL55/S55's are SO FUN to drive. At low speeds you just step on the gas and it breaks traction, it's fvcking great 😀

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Triumph

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Triumph
All I'm saying is that two 500 hp engines, one with 500 ft-lbs and one with 600 ft-lbs, will have the same top speed, assuming the gearing is optimized and all other things being equal (size/weight/aerodynamics). The amount of power required to move air out of the way at a certain speed is completely independent of the engine.

Not entirely true. The 600 lb-ft engine will be able to be geared differently, and will likely go faster because it has more power. The torque is what is moving the car, twisting the driveshaft, and therefore the wheels.
The horsepower is irrelevant. If you have more torque, you can go faster, period.
If you somehow manage to have the 500 and 600 lb-ft at the same rpm, then there's no way you could have the same HP, so the HP peak of the 600 lb-ft car would have to be lower.

So, it could be put in the same car, and geared higher, and go faster.

Nope. The 600 ft-lb engine does not have more power. It is impossible to increase power through gearing. Period.

You can tune the engines torque curves and gearing any way you like, but you are fundamentally limited by A: the power output of the engine and B: the power required to overcome air resistance (among other sources of drag). It really is just that simple.

I'm not sure you understand how torque/hp works.
If you have these two engines, and two identical cars, with the same gearing and everything, there are two things that are absolutely certain:
1. The one with more torque will be quicker, and faster because you can gear it higher than the other engine, because it has more torque to pull that higher gear.
Horsepower and torque are irrelevant to speed in this aspect: Speed is a function of how many rpm's you can turn the tires, period.
There are many factors that limit how fast you can do this, such as wind resistance, engine rpm limits, etc.
Torque helps you overcome this.
Think of it this way: (very oversimplified)
You and I are riding identical bikes. We are running, say, 20mph. Now, it takes the same rpm of those bikes' wheels to run 20mph.
But here's the difference: We are the same size, but my legs are considerably stronger.
So to run along at 20mph, you have to gear the bike down and pedal a bit faster.
I am capable of pedaling that fast, too, but to run 20 mph, I don't need to. So I use a higher gear and motor along.
But since I am capable of the same pedal rpm as you, I can up my rpm with the higher gear and ride faster.
Why? Because I have more torque. That is what is pushing those pedals, and twisting that crank.

2. If these two theoretical engines have 500 and 600 lb/ft of torque, at the same rpm, then they cannot have the same HP. Impossible.

Edit: in other words, you can't have two otherwise identical engines, with the same horsepower, and have 100 lb/ft of torque difference, unless the horsepower peak is also at a much different rpm, which will mean you have to run different gearing and one will be faster.

Another example: You take a big diesel engine from a semi truck: They have sometimes 1000 lb/ft of torque, but only maybe 400 hp.
But the HP doesn't matter: Put that engine in the same chassis as our theoretical car we're talking about (assume the weight will be the same) and you can just put a ridiculously high gear in it, or a super-overdrive, and that torque will kick your ass. The engine won't need to turn 6000 rpm like the ones above probably would, but it would still be faster.

Close, but not quite right. Engine Torque makes no difference. If you're riding a bike extremely slow and are at top gear, you can push very hard on the pedal (lots of engine torque) but still not accelerate fast (not much torque at wheel). If you go to a higher gear, you are not capable of applying as much torque because the pedal just goes down too easy, but you can get much more torque at the wheel because the pedals (engine) are spinning faster and you are getting more work done (more horsepower). The more horsepower at the engine, the more torque at the wheel. Engine torque tells you nothing because 1000lb/ft @ 10rpm = very weak, 1000lb @ 9000rpm = very powerful.

The reason semi trucks have high torque, low hp engines is because they need power at low rpms. 500hp at 7000rpm is useless if you can't get going from a full stop.

So where does hp at the wheels come in? If you are getting 400hp at the engine, you are getting roughly the same at the wheels (minus mechanical resistence), no matter how fast you're going (no matter what wheel rpm is). However, since hp = torque * rpm * (some constant), if you're going very fast, you're getting a lot less wheel torque then if you're going slow. This is why you can spin your tires at 5mph but not at 30mph. You get the same wheel hp at 30mph, but less torque since the wheel is spinning faster.

 

[MasterAndCommander]

Originally posted by: NeuroSynapsis
to all you haters, AMG cars are by far the most fun automatic ever.


Really. You have to drive it to be a believer. E55/SL55/S55's are SO FUN to drive. At low speeds you just step on the gas and it breaks traction, it's fvcking great 😀

Thanks, but I'll pass. I'd rather shift my own gears...like a real man...fun and Automatic don't belong in the same sentence 😉

 

[ponyo]

Automatic is the best part about the Benz.

 

[z0mb13]

doesn the v10 on the new m5 generate more hp and torque?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: DonVito

. . . which makes the new power pack by AMG the world?s most powerful naturally aspirated eight-cylinder production engine . . .

Won't the new Z06 also have similar BHP and more torque out of a NA V-8? Obviously it's not yet in production, but still . . .

Yes. The Z06 engine would have no problem putting out more power than this, and more torque, too. I hear Chevy tuned it back a little bit to keep it at 500 hp.

I'm sure that if the Merc engine was pushed out to 7.0 liters like the Z06, it'd produce more power too 😉

 

[RbSX]

Originally posted by: Triumph
Pointless. M-B spends so much money on having the biggest and most powerful engines mostly just for bragging rights, while the quality of their cars is only a shadow of what it once was. All of this horsepower is basically useless, requiring extreme computer intervention just to get half of it to the ground. Even the stickiest road tires can't stand up to 500 ft-lbs of torque - so what's the point of adding another 100-200 ft-lbs as in the twin turbo V12 and supercharged V8? They aren't getting any faster. You can look at the specs and as horsepower/torque has gone into the stratosphere, quarter mile times and top speeds haven't really changed. So really, why is M-B continuing to pump money into engine development? What hole in their lineup does this engine fill? Their priorities are completely skewed.

The point is one can say 'Fvck you look what I drive'

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: RyanSengara

Originally posted by: Triumph
Pointless. M-B spends so much money on having the biggest and most powerful engines mostly just for bragging rights, while the quality of their cars is only a shadow of what it once was. All of this horsepower is basically useless, requiring extreme computer intervention just to get half of it to the ground. Even the stickiest road tires can't stand up to 500 ft-lbs of torque - so what's the point of adding another 100-200 ft-lbs as in the twin turbo V12 and supercharged V8? They aren't getting any faster. You can look at the specs and as horsepower/torque has gone into the stratosphere, quarter mile times and top speeds haven't really changed. So really, why is M-B continuing to pump money into engine development? What hole in their lineup does this engine fill? Their priorities are completely skewed.

The point is one can say 'Fvck you look what I drive'

I really hate those kinds of people.

 

[Calin]

Let's say we have two engines - one that get their max torque at low rpm, and one that make their max torque at high rpm.
Let's say they have the same max power.
The low rpm engine can have the same torque from 1/3 to 2/3 of the rpm range (2000 to 4000 rpm), and the torque goes down at higher rpm. While max power is reached at 6000 rpm, it can have 2/3 of the max torque at the 6000 rpm (assuming its power is at max during 4000 to 6000 rpm)
The high rpm engine has the same max power and the same max rpm, but it has max torque at 6000 rpm. Let's say it has constant torque at 4000 to 6000rpm. Its power at 2/3 of the max rpm is just 2/3 of the max power, unlike the previous engine.

I will choose all the way engines that have max torque at lower rpm, as lower rpm are frendlier to the engine (lower fuel consumption), and it might give a better power curve (flatter, or you have max power on a wider rpm). This also helps for manual gearboxes as you don't have to change gears so often

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: Calin
Let's say we have two engines - one that get their max torque at low rpm, and one that make their max torque at high rpm.
Let's say they have the same max power.
The low rpm engine can have the same torque from 1/3 to 2/3 of the rpm range (2000 to 4000 rpm), and the torque goes down at higher rpm. While max power is reached at 6000 rpm, it can have 2/3 of the max torque at the 6000 rpm (assuming its power is at max during 4000 to 6000 rpm)
The high rpm engine has the same max power and the same max rpm, but it has max torque at 6000 rpm. Let's say it has constant torque at 4000 to 6000rpm. Its power at 2/3 of the max rpm is just 2/3 of the max power, unlike the previous engine.

I will choose all the way engines that have max torque at lower rpm, as lower rpm are frendlier to the engine (lower fuel consumption), and it might give a better power curve (flatter, or you have max power on a wider rpm). This also helps for manual gearboxes as you don't have to change gears so often

True, but in reality the lower rpm engine is probably bigger and has worse fuel economy for everyday driving.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: NFS4


I'm sure that if the Merc engine was pushed out to 7.0 liters like the Z06, it'd produce more power too 😉

But it's not, so it won't. You can't use reasoning like that. I could say that if I added 6.1 more liters and 6 more cylinders to my Saturn's engine, it would be just as powerful as a Viper's engine. But that would be ridiculous.