Men 4x more likely than women to negotiate salary

[s0me0nesmind1]

So lately I have been doing some selling, and as I go along I have been notating the entire time some studies. I do business over Craigslist sometimes, and it's pretty obvious: You are well known for getting haggling. 90% of the people I deal with has been with males. Pretty much every single time when dealing with another male I will get counter offered.... Many times at the scene of the meeting.

But lately I've had to sell some items from a wedding of ours from last year. Every single time it has been a female buying the item from us. Every single time I won't get a single counter offer or negotiating the price (that includes before or at the meeting). They show up. They pay. We go on our way. I think this is a pretty good example of the overall lack of skill women have when it comes to negotiating.

Anyone else have to do this type of transaction with men vs. women?

 

[Fox5]

Universities and government also do not negotiate salaries.

Not sure about university, but I'd imagine pay there includes research grants. More successful researchers almost certainly make more.

And government does have salary negotiation, even though they'll tell you they don't. The negotiation is in quantifying how much experience you really have, you negotiate to convince the hr person you have handled more responsibility or have more years of experience than they think. Some people get college experience to count significantly, others let the HR departments discount college experience (beyond having a degree) entirely. This is especially common for phds.
Government and bureaucratic companies have pay tables based on position, highest degree earned, and years of experience, but that does give a negotiation range. In government, you can also negotiate for a higher ranking but lower paid position which can be advantageous (quicker automatic raises and bigger jump upon next promotion).

 

[Subyman]

For women, that is what they end up doing. I recall in a pretty recent study that men who negotiated for a higher salary were viewed positively by employers, while women who likewise negotiated were viewed very negatively. I'll find it if you want me to.

I'd be interested in seeing that.

Is your suggestion that women are less capable than men, because they negotiate less? That is asinine. I can tell you that while there may be some weird inconsistencies in the distribution of how people score on specific IQ tests, as a whole women are just as capable as men. You will find women who are as smart as any man. In fact, I believe the record holder for IQ is a woman.

I never suggested that a woman's entire capability in all areas is somehow tied to their negotiating mentality. I don't see how you would have drawn that conclusion. From what Reddit has done, they believe that women have a hard time competing when it comes to salary negotiation. So the people trying to find solutions have identified the "problem", not me.

I find it strange that they would broadly ban normal competitive behavior to suit women instead of providing help for those women that find it tough to compete.

I get it, it is sometimes BS that women get special considerations men don't, and that we get screwed. But consider which gender you would rather be. My guess is when it comes down to it, for all the 'special' stuff women get, you would much rather have the option to be the gender that every president has been... the gender that at least has a chance of fighting back in a rape scenario. The gender that can drive in the middle east, and receive property, and not be oppressed.

I identify with the gender I was born with. I don't try to imagine what I'd rather be. It is a pointless pursuit. I believe the sexes as a whole have various differences and I think that is great. I hold no resentment for either gender.

I just don't see how you can't just give it to them once in awhile. Personally, any woman with the 'balls' (funny the descriptor for somebody having temerity is literally masculine genetalia!) to make it into the tech field has probably had to wade through a minefield of BS miles and miles long.I don't envy what she has to deal with in the future and I'm not here to contribute to it on behalf of some weird gender-insecurity .

Give what to women? IMO this isn't about women at all. This is about businesses stifling wage competition in the name of sexism. It is exploiting the situation. If the entire job market colludes to this then it will be extremely damaging to employees, much like the no-pouch policies of Silicon Valley.

 

[Subyman]

So lately I have been doing some selling, and as I go along I have been notating the entire time some studies. I do business over Craigslist sometimes, and it's pretty obvious: You are well known for getting haggling. 90% of the people I deal with has been with males. Pretty much every single time when dealing with another male I will get counter offered.... Many times at the scene of the meeting.

But lately I've had to sell some items from a wedding of ours from last year. Every single time it has been a female buying the item from us. Every single time I won't get a single counter offer or negotiating the price (that includes before or at the meeting). They show up. They pay. We go on our way. I think this is a pretty good example of the overall lack of skill women have when it comes to negotiating.

Anyone else have to do this type of transaction with men vs. women?

I hate when dudes agree to a price and then show up with less. I've never given in to that. I'd rather burn the item in front of them than take less than we agreed to. Someone tried to do that with a car purchase of all things once, he ended up paying in full.

 

[touchstone]

I'd be interested in seeing that.

I found several articles, but the New Yorker is IMO the best. I will throw in the washington post too.


http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-the-dangers-for-women-who-negotiate

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/29/AR2007072900827.html
Here is a pretty concise quote from the WP article that basically states my previous point verbatim:
"The traditional explanation for the gender differences that Babcock found is that men are simply more aggressive than women, perhaps because of a combination of genetics and upbringing. The solution to gender disparities, this school of thought suggests, is to train women to be more assertive and to ask for more. However, a new set of experiments by Babcock and Hannah Riley Bowles, who studies the psychology of organizations at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, offers an entirely different explanation.

Their study, which was coauthored by Carnegie Mellon researcher Lei Lai, found that men and women get very different responses when they initiate negotiations. Although it may well be true that women often hurt themselves by not trying to negotiate, this study found that women's reluctance was based on an entirely reasonable and accurate view of how they were likely to be treated if they did. Both men and women were more likely to subtly penalize women who asked for more -- the perception was that women who asked for more were "less nice".

"What we found across all the studies is men were always less willing to work with a woman who had attempted to negotiate than with a woman who did not," Bowles said. "They always preferred to work with a woman who stayed mum. But it made no difference to the men whether a guy had chosen to negotiate or not.""

I never suggested that a woman's entire capability in all areas is somehow tied to their negotiating mentality. I don't see how you would have drawn that conclusion. From what Reddit has done, they believe that women have a hard time competing when it comes to salary negotiation. So the people trying to find solutions have identified the "problem", not me.

I find it strange that they would broadly ban normal competitive behavior to suit women instead of providing help for those women that find it tough to compete.



I identify with the gender I was born with. I don't try to imagine what I'd rather be. It is a pointless pursuit. I believe the sexes as a whole have various differences and I think that is great. I hold no resentment for either gender.



Give what to women? IMO this isn't about women at all. This is about businesses stifling wage competition in the name of sexism. It is exploiting the situation. If the entire job market colludes to this then it will be extremely damaging to employees, much like the no-pouch policies of Silicon Valley.

You don't state verbatim that women are worse, you just think it? I don't know how else you could come in and complain. You are right that there is sexism in the workplace but it is almost universally against women, maybe one single 'sexist' thing that benefits women isn't so bad? If we are so much the stronger gender, why are we so worried about losing our spot on top?

Women are viewed as 'bitchy' when they try to negotiate because being assertive does not fit with the normal gender stereotypes that women are supposed to follow. I understand you identify with being male, so do I, however I have enough empathy to see that the situation is hardly 'fair'. I can't imagine the psychological effect being perpetually told you were weaker, or less, and seeing all the world leaders being not your gender... it would certainly put you at a big disadvantage. To top that off with being constantly judged for your appearance and not competence, along with all the creepy crap I see other dudes do to women in the workplace.... I don't envy their position. I don't think you envy it either, which is funny because you seem to think they have it made.

 

[smackababy]

"What we found across all the studies is men were always less willing to work with a woman who had attempted to negotiate than with a woman who did not," Bowles said. "They always preferred to work with a woman who stayed mum. But it made no difference to the men whether a guy had chosen to negotiate or not.""[/B].

Here is my issue with this statement, why do people know if someone did or did not negotiate for more? Especially, peers? In every professional environment I've been in I did not know what my coworkers made, nor did I care. I didn't know if they negotiated for better pay or simply took the offer that was given.

 

[senseamp]

Never tell interviewer your current salary, unless you are OK with getting 10% more than that for your offer.
When they are asking for your current salary, they are really asking "What's 90% of the salary you expect from us?"
When you are looking for a job, understand that you aren't the only one who needs something out of the transaction. The company also has sh!t that is not getting done, costing them a lot of money. They are probably wasting their employees time interviewing to fill this job, which results in even more shit not getting done. So if they budget $100K for a position, the company has valued the work that needs to be done at more than that, then you come in all honest and open and tell an HR guy that you are making $50K, he will write an offer for $55-60K, thinking well, that's a nice raise already, why should we offer more. But let's say you are underpaid, and only interested in offers over $80K, now you screwed yourself out of an acceptable job and you screwed the company out of an acceptable employee, all because you told a number to the gate-keeper HR guy. Everyone is worse off because of this. Just say no.

 

[Subyman]

You don't state verbatim that women are worse, you just think it? I don't know how else you could come in and complain.

I think you need to reread everything I've said in this thread. I don't understand what you are saying here. Worse at everything? Worse people? Worse at negotiating? I'm not complaining about women at all. I'm discussing the ulterior motive that businesses will use this type of model for, which I've discussed in my last post.

You are right that there is sexism in the workplace but it is almost universally against women, maybe one single 'sexist' thing that benefits women isn't so bad? If we are so much the stronger gender, why are we so worried about losing our spot on top?

Top spot? Stronger gender? Where are you getting this stuff from? I've never said anything of the sort.

I understand you identify with being male, so do I, however I have enough empathy to see that the situation is hardly 'fair'. I can't imagine the psychological effect being perpetually told you were weaker, or less, and seeing all the world leaders being not your gender... it would certainly put you at a big disadvantage. To top that off with being constantly judged for your appearance and not competence, along with all the creepy crap I see other dudes do to women in the workplace.... I don't envy their position. I don't think you envy it either, which is funny because you seem to think they have it made.

I think you are just ranting at some hypothetical macho man or something. I don't see how any of this has to do with my posts.

 

[master_shake_]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM

stop it don't pollute propaganda with facts

:biggrin: