Memory Heatspreaders Help or Hype ?

[Mr Fox]

First....Lets try to keep this a friendly informational thread, as it is best for all.

The various memory vendors have made assertions that heat spreaders do something other than "look pretty".

Here is the place to lay out your case.

Please keep to factual evidence, and try to support your comments with Data or supporting studies or reviews.

 

[Yellowbeard]

Mr. Fox, I posted a study link in the Highly Technical section. I think you picked a better area for a general heat spreader discussion. I'm new to the layout here, do you thnk I should cancel my thread and move my info over here? I don't want to make a mess of the place.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=50&threadid=1978355

EDIT: I'll duplicate the links here to simplify.


Micron Study

Corsair Dominator PDF

Legit Reviews Testing

 

[Idontcare]

How does one "debunk reality"?

 

[Mr Fox]

Originally posted by: Yellowbeard
Mr. Fox, I posted a study link in the Highly Technical section. I think you picked a better area for a general heat spreader discussion. I'm new to the layout here, do you thnk I should cancel my thread and move my info over here? I don't want to make a mess of the place.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=50&threadid=1978355

I belive that this is a better venue as we have tied memory and CPU and overclocking together.

Great information and thank you !! The Micron study does get into the Total Engineering aspect of the variables that are involved in any "Design Of Experiment" that was what was missing from the other post and now ties all that info together.

 

[Mr Fox]

Originally posted by: Idontcare
How does one "debunk reality"?

If one takes a pragmatic approach to life one understands :

Most of the thinkers who describe themselves as pragmatists point to some connection with practical consequences or real effects as vital components of both meaning and truth. The precise character of these links to pragmata is, however, as diverse as the thinkers who do the pointing.

Some pragmatists disagree with the view that beliefs represent reality, and instead argue that beliefs are dispositions which qualify as true or false depending on how helpful a disposition proves in accomplishing the believer's goals. For this type of pragmatist it is only in the struggle of intelligent organisms with the surrounding environment that theories acquire meaning, and only with a theory's success in this struggle that it becomes true.
As a rule, however, pragmatists do not hold that anything that is practical or useful, or that anything that helps to survive merely in the short-term, should be regarded as true. Instead, most of them argue that what should be taken as true is that which contributes the most good over the longest course.

In the case of C.S. Peirce's pragmatism, this means that theoretical claims should be tied to verification practices ? that is, one should be able to make predictions and test them. Truth is defined, for Peirce, as the ultimate outcome of inquiry by a (usually) scientific community of investigators.

For William James and many of his followers, the meaning of any term consisted, rather, in the grasping of the consequences for action that the acceptance of the truth of the term entails. Truth itself, on this view, is not that which contributes the most good to the community, but that which contributes the most good to the individual.

Excerpted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism

Reality vs Belief

 

[Yellowbeard]

With that in mind, and I had this thought LONG before I ever worked for Corsair, I wonder how many cases of ESD damage have been avoided over the years in the case of memory with heat spreaders? Also, do heat spreaders make memory more durable in harsh environments? Not all of us use and ESD strap, static mats, etc and not all of us are gentle with our beloved memories.

 

[The-Noid]

Haha. As you know I put/take out about 5 sets of memory a week. I have never used a strap, discharge my hand, and I change them on carpet. It is possible I am lucky, but I have never had anything break from ESD.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Yoxxy
Haha. As you know I put/take out about 5 sets of memory a week. I have never used a strap, discharge my hand, and I change them on carpet. It is possible I am lucky, but I have never had anything break from ESD.

QFT from me as well...Now I try to be cautious when reaching in to the case. I try to ground myself to the case frame first...Sometimes I forget. I have enever killed a part.

 

[Duvie]

In theory...I think we should be debunking theoretical...

In theory using basic physics both heatspreaders and heatsinks should be fundamentally better and serve a useful purpose. Even without sufficient airflow reaching them the further the heat can be pulled form the surface of the chip the better. If there is sufficient airflow it should be very beneficial. Now this is all under the assumption the heatspreader is connected to the chip by some means that promotes transfer. i have seen some crappy heatspreaders that were not making good contact. In those cases it may actually be worse. Since the heatspreader may actually work as a block and a blanket keeping cooler air from cooling the hot surface of the chip on the memory stick.

 

[Yellowbeard]

Not to mention, ESD deaths would be virtually impossible to track unless every person that does it fesses up when calls for an RMA. I can hear it now:

"Yeah, I was petting my cat while wearing a wool sweater standing on my shag carpet rewinding a coil and I reached into my computer case".

That was more rhetorical than anything because it would be costly and time consuming to prove that heat spreaders help resist ESD damage.

 

[Yellowbeard]

Originally posted by: Duvie
In theory...I think we should be debunking theoretical...

In theory using basic physics both heatspreaders and heatsinks should be fundamentally better and serve a useful purpose. Even without sufficient airflow reaching them the further the heat can be pulled form the surface of the chip the better. If there is sufficient airflow it should be very beneficial. Now this is all under the assumption the heatspreader is connected to the chip by some means that promotes transfer. i have seen some crappy heatspreaders that were not making good contact. In those cases it may actually be worse. Since the heatspreader may actually work as a block and a blanket keeping cooler air from cooling the hot surface of the chip on the memory stick.

Agreed, a quality and well designed and applied spreader is a necessity. On the other hand, I've wondered how a simple set of the Zalman RAM sinks applied with the Arctic Silver thermal adhesive would do. It's a smaller overall mass to disparse heat but, that would also likely be a better coupling than some of those questionable heat spreader attachments Duvie mentioned.

 

[Aluvus]

Originally posted by: Mr Fox
Some pragmatists disagree with the view that beliefs represent reality, and instead argue that beliefs are dispositions which qualify as true or false depending on how helpful a disposition proves in accomplishing the believer's goals. For this type of pragmatist it is only in the struggle of intelligent organisms with the surrounding environment that theories acquire meaning, and only with a theory's success in this struggle that it becomes true.
As a rule, however, pragmatists do not hold that anything that is practical or useful, or that anything that helps to survive merely in the short-term, should be regarded as true. Instead, most of them argue that what should be taken as true is that which contributes the most good over the longest course.

In the case of C.S. Peirce's pragmatism, this means that theoretical claims should be tied to verification practices ? that is, one should be able to make predictions and test them. Truth is defined, for Peirce, as the ultimate outcome of inquiry by a (usually) scientific community of investigators.

For William James and many of his followers, the meaning of any term consisted, rather, in the grasping of the consequences for action that the acceptance of the truth of the term entails. Truth itself, on this view, is not that which contributes the most good to the community, but that which contributes the most good to the individual.

Stolen from here.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Yellowbeard

Originally posted by: Duvie
In theory...I think we should be debunking theoretical...

In theory using basic physics both heatspreaders and heatsinks should be fundamentally better and serve a useful purpose. Even without sufficient airflow reaching them the further the heat can be pulled form the surface of the chip the better. If there is sufficient airflow it should be very beneficial. Now this is all under the assumption the heatspreader is connected to the chip by some means that promotes transfer. i have seen some crappy heatspreaders that were not making good contact. In those cases it may actually be worse. Since the heatspreader may actually work as a block and a blanket keeping cooler air from cooling the hot surface of the chip on the memory stick.

Agreed, a quality and well designed and applied spreader is a necessity. On the other hand, I've wondered how a simple set of the Zalman RAM sinks applied with the Arctic Silver thermal adhesive would do. It's a smaller overall mass to disparse heat but, that would also likely be a better coupling than some of those questionable heat spreader attachments Duvie mentioned.

I would perfer the ram sinks cause while they may be smaller when you figure actual surface area of the fins it is often more then the area of a standard heatspreader. The only problem is the spacing of the dimm slots...Since most only populate 1 and 3 in current C2D systems you have some room...

the dominator series works better but unfortunately many of my high end scythe air coolers would conflict. the fan is attached and over the top of the ram stick in the 1st dimm slot.

 

[Noubourne]

Originally posted by: Aluvus

Originally posted by: Mr Fox
**Wikipedia article**

Stolen from here.

Mr. Fox is a moron.

This is news?

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: Yellowbeard
I can hear it now:

"Yeah, I was petting my cat while wearing a wool sweater standing on my shag carpet rewinding a coil and I reached into my computer case".

:laugh::laugh:

That was more rhetorical than anything because it would be costly and time consuming to prove that heat spreaders help resist ESD damage.

I have often thought that myself, and am convinced that heatspreaders are better for the company selling the RAM than they are for the consumer. I mean, who cares if they have to RMA a few sticks of the RAM that has IC's that cost $.03 per IC, right? But, I've yet to see any company ever, except for Team, that doesn't install heatspreaders on their more expensive modules, and even Team includes them. Actual heatsinks are a different story altogether, though.

Now, don't get me wrong, any of you that work for a company that sells RAM. I'm actually glad that they do this, because I know that if they didn't, I'd have to pay more money for that same RAM, because of RMA's that would cost the company too much money to prove was the customer's fault. It seems that nearly every time I go into a Fry's on a Saturday, if I walk past the section where they sell memory, there will be a minimum of one older gentleman standing there with a stick of RAM sticking out of his shirt pocket.:shocked:

 

[The-Noid]

D9GCT = $8/IC
D9GMH = $12/IC
D9GKX = $16/IC
D9GQX? (1,000 MHZ part coming) = $21/IC.

Definetly not the $.03/IC that myocardia is talking about.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Yellowbeard
Not to mention, ESD deaths would be virtually impossible to track unless every person that does it fesses up when calls for an RMA. I can hear it now:

"Yeah, I was petting my cat while wearing a wool sweater standing on my shag carpet rewinding a coil and I reached into my computer case".

That was more rhetorical than anything because it would be costly and time consuming to prove that heat spreaders help resist ESD damage.

Dude that sounds like a way to make a human tesla coil!

RA FTW

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: Yellowbeard
I can hear it now:

"Yeah, I was petting my cat while wearing a wool sweater standing on my shag carpet rewinding a coil and I reached into my computer case".

:laugh::laugh:

That was more rhetorical than anything because it would be costly and time consuming to prove that heat spreaders help resist ESD damage.

I have often thought that myself, and am convinced that heatspreaders are better for the company selling the RAM than they are for the consumer. I mean, who cares if they have to RMA a few sticks of the RAM that has IC's that cost $.03 per IC, right? But, I've yet to see any company ever, except for Team, that doesn't install heatspreaders on their more expensive modules, and even Team includes them. Actual heatsinks are a different story altogether, though.

Now, don't get me wrong, any of you that work for a company that sells RAM. I'm actually glad that they do this, because I know that if they didn't, I'd have to pay more money for that same RAM, because of RMA's that would cost the company too much money to prove was the customer's fault. It seems that nearly every time I go into a Fry's on a Saturday, if I walk past the section where they sell memory, there will be a minimum of one older gentleman standing there with a stick of RAM sticking out of his shirt pocket.:shocked:

Someone once said to me that most companies put heatspreaders on the memory to hide what type of IC they used and you void the warranty if you peek. Team doesn't hide anything so they make them bare and tell you it's ok to run them bare so...

Take that how you will

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Aluvus

Originally posted by: Mr Fox
Some pragmatists disagree with the view that beliefs represent reality, and instead argue that beliefs are dispositions which qualify as true or false depending on how helpful a disposition proves in accomplishing the believer's goals. For this type of pragmatist it is only in the struggle of intelligent organisms with the surrounding environment that theories acquire meaning, and only with a theory's success in this struggle that it becomes true.
As a rule, however, pragmatists do not hold that anything that is practical or useful, or that anything that helps to survive merely in the short-term, should be regarded as true. Instead, most of them argue that what should be taken as true is that which contributes the most good over the longest course.

In the case of C.S. Peirce's pragmatism, this means that theoretical claims should be tied to verification practices ? that is, one should be able to make predictions and test them. Truth is defined, for Peirce, as the ultimate outcome of inquiry by a (usually) scientific community of investigators.

For William James and many of his followers, the meaning of any term consisted, rather, in the grasping of the consequences for action that the acceptance of the truth of the term entails. Truth itself, on this view, is not that which contributes the most good to the community, but that which contributes the most good to the individual.

Stolen from here.

Wow, that is sad Mr Fox.

 

[Mr Fox]

Originally posted by: Aluvus

Originally posted by: Mr Fox
Some pragmatists disagree with the view that beliefs represent reality, and instead argue that beliefs are dispositions which qualify as true or false depending on how helpful a disposition proves in accomplishing the believer's goals. For this type of pragmatist it is only in the struggle of intelligent organisms with the surrounding environment that theories acquire meaning, and only with a theory's success in this struggle that it becomes true.
As a rule, however, pragmatists do not hold that anything that is practical or useful, or that anything that helps to survive merely in the short-term, should be regarded as true. Instead, most of them argue that what should be taken as true is that which contributes the most good over the longest course.

In the case of C.S. Peirce's pragmatism, this means that theoretical claims should be tied to verification practices ? that is, one should be able to make predictions and test them. Truth is defined, for Peirce, as the ultimate outcome of inquiry by a (usually) scientific community of investigators.

For William James and many of his followers, the meaning of any term consisted, rather, in the grasping of the consequences for action that the acceptance of the truth of the term entails. Truth itself, on this view, is not that which contributes the most good to the community, but that which contributes the most good to the individual.

Stolen from here.

Originally posted by: Noubourne

Originally posted by: Aluvus

Originally posted by: Mr Fox
**Wikipedia article**

Stolen from here.

Mr. Fox is a moron.

This is news?

[/quote]

Wow, that is sad Mr Fox.[/quote]


Edited


I'm sorry for the link not copying.... was in a hurry to go to a meeting.

everyone here makes a simple mistakes..... but there always seems to this same group that never has anything worthwhile to add. Just the usual B/S.

And you can call me an Asshole all you like... If that makes you feel better, and somehow superior.

But please do it in a seperate thread.....

Thank You !!

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: Yellowbeard
I can hear it now:

"Yeah, I was petting my cat while wearing a wool sweater standing on my shag carpet rewinding a coil and I reached into my computer case".

:laugh::laugh:

That was more rhetorical than anything because it would be costly and time consuming to prove that heat spreaders help resist ESD damage.

I have often thought that myself, and am convinced that heatspreaders are better for the company selling the RAM than they are for the consumer. I mean, who cares if they have to RMA a few sticks of the RAM that has IC's that cost $.03 per IC, right? But, I've yet to see any company ever, except for Team, that doesn't install heatspreaders on their more expensive modules, and even Team includes them. Actual heatsinks are a different story altogether, though.

Now, don't get me wrong, any of you that work for a company that sells RAM. I'm actually glad that they do this, because I know that if they didn't, I'd have to pay more money for that same RAM, because of RMA's that would cost the company too much money to prove was the customer's fault. It seems that nearly every time I go into a Fry's on a Saturday, if I walk past the section where they sell memory, there will be a minimum of one older gentleman standing there with a stick of RAM sticking out of his shirt pocket.:shocked:

Someone once said to me that most companies put heatspreaders on the memory to hide what type of IC they used and you void the warranty if you peek. Team doesn't hide anything so they make them bare and tell you it's ok to run them bare so...

Take that how you will

I prefer my RAM bare. That way I can see what ICs are on it

Also, most heatspreaders are poorly installed. Might even hurt OC's...

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd
Someone once said to me that most companies put heatspreaders on the memory to hide what type of IC they used and you void the warranty if you peek. Team doesn't hide anything so they make them bare and tell you it's ok to run them bare so...

Take that how you will

Oh, that wouldn't surprise me one bit. Also, as far as heatspreaders go, you're absolutely right-- they don't add much, if anything to the cooling effect/capabilities. That was why I differentiated between what I had said about heatspreaders, and what I think about true heatsinks. BTW, have you figured out yet if your RAM was the problem with your C2D system?

 

[Yellowbeard]

Originally posted by: Mr Fox
Please keep to factual evidence, and try to support your comments with Data or supporting studies or reviews.

Not slamming anyone but, I have seen very little here other than opinions and we all have those.

 

[Mr Fox]

Originally posted by: Yellowbeard

Originally posted by: Mr Fox
Please keep to factual evidence, and try to support your comments with Data or supporting studies or reviews.

Not slamming anyone but, I have seen very little here other than opinions and we all have those.

Personally I was pleased by the information that you provided.

It showed that mass of the heatspreader is the most important characteristic, along with Thermal Conductivity of the base material.

This was very consistent with the constants of physics.

Surface area is important but due to space considerations may be an issue.

I think that we all knew that the Air Flow was a true key also.

 

[Avalon]

I know it's already been posted, but I think it says something when Team ships their memory with the heatspreaders off. I don't know how much a heatspreader really helps, though.