RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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I followed the story pretty well but there are a couple of things I didn't figure out.
Who is Teddy exactly? Is he actually a cop or he just a con artist? Does Teddy know Natalie's boyfriend because he's a cop or is it because he's a con artist.

I loved the movie btw, I thought the way the timeline was presented was awesome.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,313
7
81
yes. Teddy was a cop using Lenord to knock off and rob drug dealers. Whether or not he actually intended to help Lenord early on may be up for debate. I'm sure the Directors commentary will point you in the right direction.
 

isasir

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2000
8,609
0
0
I was just thinking about this movie the other day. Good movie. Maybe I'll rent it this weekend to watch again.
 

RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,968
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Originally posted by: Childs
yes. Teddy was a cop using Lenord to knock off and rob drug dealers. Whether or not he actually intended to help Lenord early on may be up for debate. I'm sure the Directors commentary will point you in the right direction.

Yeah, I think he was a cop that realized he could use Leonard to his advantage to make a shitload of money and kill dealers. There were a couple of interesting subconscious hints in there too.

For example in the last scene with Sammy Jenkis (after his wife dies) there are a few frames in which Sammy is replaced by Leonard while he's sitting on the chair.

Also, The part at the end where Teddy tells him he's already killed John G. you briefly see his wife laying in bed with him, he has a tatoo over his heart that says "I did it" that isn't there for the rest of the film.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,313
7
81
The real question is, do you think Leonard was the real who killed his wife by insulin (sp?) overdose? The fact that once Teddy told him the truth, he put in motion a plan to kill Teddy, so Teddy may have been right about his memory being selective.
 

RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,968
16
81
Originally posted by: Childs
The real question is, do you think Leonard was the real who killed his wife by insulin (sp?) overdose? The fact that once Teddy told him the truth, he put in motion a plan to kill Teddy, so Teddy may have been right about his memory being selective.

Yeah, I think Lenny does kill his wife with the insulin; that's the only way I can explain the absence of his wife for the whole movie.
 

Mo0o

Lifer
Jul 31, 2001
24,227
3
76
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Originally posted by: Childs
The real question is, do you think Leonard was the real who killed his wife by insulin (sp?) overdose? The fact that once Teddy told him the truth, he put in motion a plan to kill Teddy, so Teddy may have been right about his memory being selective.

Yeah, I think Lenny does kill his wife with the insulin; that's the only way I can explain the absence of his wife for the whole movie.

Or it could be that teh wife died when the robber attacked them like leonard said. but i also believe it was leaonard who killed his wife w/ insulin
 

MAME

Banned
Sep 19, 2003
9,281
1
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Lenny kills his wife who survived the attack

Teddy helped Lenny find the real killer but Lenny didn't remember and was still seeking the killer. Teddy used Lenny to kill drug dealers to get money (though, I think this might be the first person he killed)

You're right about those 2 flashbacks. Hard to notice but significant.


Btw, this movie is in my top 3 movies of all time
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Originally posted by: Childs
The real question is, do you think Leonard was the real who killed his wife by insulin (sp?) overdose? The fact that once Teddy told him the truth, he put in motion a plan to kill Teddy, so Teddy may have been right about his memory being selective.

Yeah, I think Lenny does kill his wife with the insulin; that's the only way I can explain the absence of his wife for the whole movie.

IF he did, it would have had to have been BEFORE he developed his problem. Why? Simple, because he remembers the story. If Lenny had truly killed his wife with insulin, due to his not remembering he had just administered some, then he also wouldn't remember her having died because of it.
 

RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,968
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Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Originally posted by: Childs
The real question is, do you think Leonard was the real who killed his wife by insulin (sp?) overdose? The fact that once Teddy told him the truth, he put in motion a plan to kill Teddy, so Teddy may have been right about his memory being selective.

Yeah, I think Lenny does kill his wife with the insulin; that's the only way I can explain the absence of his wife for the whole movie.

IF he did, it would have had to have been BEFORE he developed his problem. Why? Simple, because he remembers the story. If Lenny had truly killed his wife with insulin, due to his not remembering he had just administered some, then he also wouldn't remember her having died because of it.
He doesn't remember that she died because of it, he thinks she died from the attack (which she didn't). It's Teddy that tells him about his wife not dying in the attack and that his Sammy Jenkis story is a fabrication.
 

MAME

Banned
Sep 19, 2003
9,281
1
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Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Originally posted by: Childs
The real question is, do you think Leonard was the real who killed his wife by insulin (sp?) overdose? The fact that once Teddy told him the truth, he put in motion a plan to kill Teddy, so Teddy may have been right about his memory being selective.

Yeah, I think Lenny does kill his wife with the insulin; that's the only way I can explain the absence of his wife for the whole movie.

IF he did, it would have had to have been BEFORE he developed his problem. Why? Simple, because he remembers the story. If Lenny had truly killed his wife with insulin, due to his not remembering he had just administered some, then he also wouldn't remember her having died because of it.

Actaully that's wrong. He repressed the memory or something and used Sammy Jankis as a scapegoat more or less
 

yukichigai

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2003
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My take on the film and what happened:

Teddy was a cop, is a cop, just not what you would call a "play by the rules" kind of cop. I think in his own way he cared for Leonard, and thought what he was doing was for the best. The first time, when he helped Leonard find the real John G., it was purely for Leonard's benifit. But when he realized the knowledge didn't stay, as well as the depths to which Leonard would go for his own ends, he didn't feel the need to be so pure of intentions. More on that in a minute.

Leonard on the other hand was not at all what he made himself out to be. The first inkling I had of this was when he first explained his condition. Namely, how does one know they have Anterior-grade memory loss when they can't remember that fact? Unless a situation arose where doctors knew he was going to have no short term memory there is no way he could have reasonably been able to explain it. For one reason or another Leonard had psycholgically-imposed anterior-grade memory loss, much like he made Sammy Jankis out to have.

When Teddy helped Leonard kill the real John G. the reason he thought it "would stick" is because Teddy knew that Leonard's problem was in his mind. And he was of course disappointed when it didn't happen. But I think something happened later, maybe before or after Leonard's wife died, where Teddy discovered that not only was Leonard locked into this fantasy delusion where he had no short term memory and his wife's killer/rapist still roamed the streets, Leonard was also capable of lying to himself in order to justify killing someone innocent, (removing sections of the police reports, etc.) just to perpetuate his own delusion. If that wasn't enough for Teddy it was made painfully obvious how dedicated Leonard was when he took his delusion so far as to the point of overdosing his wife on Insulin. (Replace the Sammy Jankis sequences with Leonard and his wife and you know what happened) I think Teddy found he could continue to help Leonard, prevent him from killing the innocent and make money for the both of them, all at once, by aiding Leonard in lying to himsel. As weird as it sounds, Teddy was trying to help Leonard, albeit in a twisted kind of way.

I think Teddy was simply waiting for something to sink in enough for Leonard to realize the truth about himself. Towards the end of the movie (middle of the plot) he almost broke through, but Leonard's delusion was too strong then. And since he saw Teddy as a threat to this "perfect" life he had created for himself he lied to himself (the himself that didn't know the truth) so he would kill Teddy. With Teddy out of the picture he could go on, forever searching for the man who killed his wife; but with Teddy in the picture he knew, eventually, he would wake up and realize he was simply an insurance investigator who apart from a brief period of mental illness had never done anything particularly exciting, returning to a life with no wife, no job, a brand as a long-time mentally ill person and millions in ill-gotten gains, not to mention the knowledge that his self-delusion had killed his wife. In his current state he was free from all of it, in fact free from everything. His responsibility for any of his actions expired every 8~10 minutes.

Finally I'd like to point out something interesting: Leonard is the liar of the story, not Teddy. Most of what Teddy says has a shred of truth to it, but what Leonard says is mostly fabrication. Except for a few times when he is truly desperate Teddy is more honest with Leonard than Leonard is with Teddy, much less himself.


So yes, I liked the movie, can you tell? :p
 

Koing

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator<br> Health and F
Oct 11, 2000
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Hey what part did you guys realise when Lenny kill's his own wife by over dosing her on insulin?

I saw the Sammy Jankis part where his wife kept asking for insulin and her turning back the time and asking him over and over. And Sammy Jankis happily doing it.

You do see it a bit further on where he was thinking about his wife and that she was a diabetic and that he was pinching her leg and getting a needle out type of flash.

I though the movie was very well done :D. SOLID film :D

Koing
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
2
81
I don't want to start hypothesizing and discussing the movie too deeply because I'd be here all night and I have to work in the morning, so I'll just say this...

Best. Movie. Ever.
 

Dacalo

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2000
8,778
4
76
Originally posted by: Koing
Hey what part did you guys realise when Lenny kill's his own wife by over dosing her on insulin?

I saw the Sammy Jankis part where his wife kept asking for insulin and her turning back the time and asking him over and over. And Sammy Jankis happily doing it.

You do see it a bit further on where he was thinking about his wife and that she was a diabetic and that he was pinching her leg and getting a needle out type of flash.

I though the movie was very well done :D. SOLID film :D

Koing

Lenny was Sammy Jenkis
 

Koing

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator<br> Health and F
Oct 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: Dacalo
Originally posted by: Koing
Hey what part did you guys realise when Lenny kill's his own wife by over dosing her on insulin?

I saw the Sammy Jankis part where his wife kept asking for insulin and her turning back the time and asking him over and over. And Sammy Jankis happily doing it.

You do see it a bit further on where he was thinking about his wife and that she was a diabetic and that he was pinching her leg and getting a needle out type of flash.

I though the movie was very well done :D. SOLID film :D

Koing

Lenny was Sammy Jenkis

Okay.

When did this come through? At first you think he was a 'case' that Lenny was working on t hen he turns out he was Sammy Jenkis? Teddy was going on about something like this at the end of the film though.

Koing
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
2
81
Originally posted by: Koing
Originally posted by: Dacalo
Originally posted by: Koing
Hey what part did you guys realise when Lenny kill's his own wife by over dosing her on insulin?

I saw the Sammy Jankis part where his wife kept asking for insulin and her turning back the time and asking him over and over. And Sammy Jankis happily doing it.

You do see it a bit further on where he was thinking about his wife and that she was a diabetic and that he was pinching her leg and getting a needle out type of flash.

I though the movie was very well done :D. SOLID film :D

Koing

Lenny was Sammy Jenkis

Okay.

When did this come through? At first you think he was a 'case' that Lenny was working on t hen he turns out he was Sammy Jenkis? Teddy was going on about something like this at the end of the film though.

Koing

Yeah, Teddy explains everything to Lenny. Sammy *was* a case of Lenny's, but the real Sammy was a fraud. Lenny uses Sammy's case to project what actually happened to him.

"Memory can change the shape of a room; it can change the color of a car. And memories can be distorted. They're just an interpretation, they're not a record, and they're irrelevant if you have the facts."
 

Koing

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator<br> Health and F
Oct 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: bradruth
Originally posted by: Koing
Originally posted by: Dacalo
Originally posted by: Koing
Hey what part did you guys realise when Lenny kill's his own wife by over dosing her on insulin?

I saw the Sammy Jankis part where his wife kept asking for insulin and her turning back the time and asking him over and over. And Sammy Jankis happily doing it.

You do see it a bit further on where he was thinking about his wife and that she was a diabetic and that he was pinching her leg and getting a needle out type of flash.

I though the movie was very well done :D. SOLID film :D

Koing

Lenny was Sammy Jenkis

Okay.

When did this come through? At first you think he was a 'case' that Lenny was working on t hen he turns out he was Sammy Jenkis? Teddy was going on about something like this at the end of the film though.

Koing

Yeah, Teddy explains everything to Lenny. Sammy *was* a case of Lenny's, but the real Sammy was a fraud. Lenny uses Sammy's case to project what actually happened to him.

"Memory can change the shape of a room; it can change the color of a car. And memories can be distorted. They're just an interpretation, they're not a record, and they're irrelevant if you have the facts."

I see that now. Thanks.

Awesome movie and it is very well done :D

Koing
 

Koing

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator<br> Health and F
Oct 11, 2000
16,843
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Another thing (bear with me please!)

Hey so his wife survives the rape. BUT he later overdoes his wife on insulin and kills her. SO why isn't this investigated by the Police? OR does he fake it up with his short term memory loss thing? And Teddy 'believes' Lenny on killing his wife or does he think what else happened to his wife?

Thanks.

Koing
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
2
81
Originally posted by: Koing
Another thing (bear with me please!)

Hey so his wife survives the rape. BUT he later overdoes his wife on insulin and kills her. SO why isn't this investigated by the Police? OR does he fake it up with his short term memory loss thing? And Teddy 'believes' Lenny on killing his wife or does he think what else happened to his wife?

Thanks.

Koing

He's committed to a mental institution, which you can see very briefly (maybe a couple frames) when they show Sammy in the institution. If you read the website or the DVD extras that has Leonard's "notes," it would appear that he escaped the institution with Teddy's help. Teddy believes Lenny's story about the incident and wants to help him.
 

Koing

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator<br> Health and F
Oct 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: bradruth
Originally posted by: Koing
Another thing (bear with me please!)

Hey so his wife survives the rape. BUT he later overdoes his wife on insulin and kills her. SO why isn't this investigated by the Police? OR does he fake it up with his short term memory loss thing? And Teddy 'believes' Lenny on killing his wife or does he think what else happened to his wife?

Thanks.

Koing

He's committed to a mental institution, which you can see very briefly (maybe a couple frames) when they show Sammy in the institution. If you read the website or the DVD extras that has Leonard's &quot;notes,&quot; it would appear that he escaped the institution with Teddy's help. Teddy believes Lenny's story about the incident and wants to help him.

I guess I missed those couple of frames :(.

Thanks dude clears a lot of things up now :D

Koing
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
2
81
Originally posted by: Koing
Originally posted by: bradruth
Originally posted by: Koing
Another thing (bear with me please!)

Hey so his wife survives the rape. BUT he later overdoes his wife on insulin and kills her. SO why isn't this investigated by the Police? OR does he fake it up with his short term memory loss thing? And Teddy 'believes' Lenny on killing his wife or does he think what else happened to his wife?

Thanks.

Koing

He's committed to a mental institution, which you can see very briefly (maybe a couple frames) when they show Sammy in the institution. If you read the website or the DVD extras that has Leonard's "notes," it would appear that he escaped the institution with Teddy's help. Teddy believes Lenny's story about the incident and wants to help him.

I guess I missed those couple of frames :(.

Thanks dude clears a lot of things up now :D

Koing

You're quite welcome, buddy. :D
 

Koing

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator<br> Health and F
Oct 11, 2000
16,843
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Originally posted by: Shelly21
Here's a link to a faq which I thought did a good job of explaining things.

Love the movie.

Wow nice faq. Thanks for the link.

Very comprehensive!

Koing
 

Shelly21

Diamond Member
May 28, 2002
4,111
1
0
Yeah, at first I was like, WTF, why are they showing the movie backwards.....

But it works, and I gave it a 5 before I shove the dvd back into the neflix envelope. To bad they didn't have the limite edition. I really would love to watch it again in the correct chroniclogical order.