BoomerD
No Lifer
- Feb 26, 2006
- 66,405
- 14,799
- 146
Well more Democrats are enemies of the Constitution as well..
After all, "it's just a gawd-dammed piece of paper," right?
After all, "it's just a gawd-dammed piece of paper," right?
Sadly the same bigotry is difficult to uproot in American culture. The Bible gave slave owners great comfort. Black folk and gays, huh, just different versions of the same thing, garbage the Bible used as TP.
should have left blacks out of the upper echelons of the military too then. now we have less white serving, right?
what a retard
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
My comment is that the OP on this thread makes two somewhat wrong assumptions, and if the argument premise is wrong or less than totally valid, all conclusions that follow are just more garbage in garbage out.
1. Not only is Megan McCain not the only person who has such views on don't ask don't tell, it also fails to make the views expressed any more or less valid because Megan McCain said them.
2. Instead of looking at just past American military policy regarding gays and Lesbians serving in the American military, maybe its time to start looking at other nation's military policies that have long past or just recently allowed gays and Lesbians to openly serve in the armed forces. If other nations have had positive experiences with few or none of the predicted big negatives, American may be well advised to do it also.
But any time we are dealing with big organizations and long traditions, be it a sports team, a church, a political party, or whatever, there is always resistance to change.
But this nation outlawed slavery, gave females the vote, Truman was able to integrate the armed forces, baseball and other sports went from lily white to integrated, and there is no evidence our military can't do the same with Gays and Lesbians. But tragically, military discrimination against especially Gay men has been very costly to our nation's military readiness, because many of those Gay men given the boot were in rare specialty areas like Arab speaking translators, code breakers, and other specialty areas. And its almost impossible to replace those people with untrained heterosexuals in any short term period of time.
1. Not only is Megan McCain not the only person who has such views on don't ask don't tell, it also fails to make the views expressed any more or less valid because Megan McCain said them.
2. Instead of looking at just past American military policy regarding gays and Lesbians serving in the American military, maybe its time to start looking at other nation's military policies that have long past or just recently allowed gays and Lesbians to openly serve in the armed forces. If other nations have had positive experiences with few or none of the predicted big negatives, American may be well advised to do it also.
But any time we are dealing with big organizations and long traditions, be it a sports team, a church, a political party, or whatever, there is always resistance to change.
But this nation outlawed slavery, gave females the vote, Truman was able to integrate the armed forces, baseball and other sports went from lily white to integrated, and there is no evidence our military can't do the same with Gays and Lesbians. But tragically, military discrimination against especially Gay men has been very costly to our nation's military readiness, because many of those Gay men given the boot were in rare specialty areas like Arab speaking translators, code breakers, and other specialty areas. And its almost impossible to replace those people with untrained heterosexuals in any short term period of time.
Obama is moving forwarward on removing Don't Ask Don't Tell and ending discrimination on this, more slowly than progressives want, while John McCain supports discrimination.
GroundedSailor
Platinum Member
- Feb 18, 2001
- 2,502
- 0
- 76
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
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Either that or they are more devious and dishonest than the average person. Its maybe why we have some many log cabin Republicans in various policy making positions in the GOP. Its has to be almost the ultimate hypocrisy for a gay person to promote and proliferate gay bashing as a national policy while remaining secretly Gay at the same time.
I can respect a Barney Frank who is Gay and states he is, but not a Larry Craig or Ken Melman who finally get yanked out of the closet.
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GroundedSailor
Platinum Member
- Feb 18, 2001
- 2,502
- 0
- 76
Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,829
- 3
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It seems to me that DADT makes sense. That's why it was put into place. What doesn't make sense is that a gay serviceman can be discharged if someone else "tells". That's not "DADT", that's "Don't Be Gay".
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Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,445
- 19,898
- 146
"Log Cabin" Republicans are out. Do not confuse them with the self hating closeted pricks whom you mention. They are NOT the same.
Log cabin Republicans are not closeted, but ARE fiscally conservative people who don't like the current policies of the American left, so they identify with the right.
http://online.logcabin.org/
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Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,829
- 3
- 0
It wouldn't be endorsing bigotry against gays if it the rule actually was that you have to stay in the closet. When it gets repealed, most gays will probably still "not tell" for practical reasons.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
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Why did they get rid of DADT in the first place? I live in the normal civilian world and I don't think I've ever talked about sexual relations at work. We don't stand around the water cooling and say "I fucked my wife's ass last night, high five bro."
I think I would also be deeply offended if a supervisor asked about my sex life or sexual orientation or anything about my family. Like seriously, fuck off. Work and family are two separate things. If I like having sex with goats when I visit New Zealand, that's my business (and the goat's).
edit: This comedy sketch is totally appropriate. When you remove things like Don't Ask Don't Tell, you're basically advocating that you want your work environment to look like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEpbpoqgUdM
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Bateluer
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2001
- 27,730
- 8
- 0
Sounds he's saying there will be some serious hazing involved? Probably right on that one.
Far as I know, a homosexual individual is perfectly capable of doing any of the jobs or work associated with any branch of the military.
PJABBER
Diamond Member
- Feb 8, 2001
- 4,822
- 0
- 0
The military is very hard line about discrimination in whatever form it takes. If there is overt discrimination it is likely to result in serious charges. So, if gays can serve openly they will be legally protected as required by the UCMJ and the chain of command.
However, discipline, especially in combat units that absolutely require it to function, tends to not escalate that readily to formal charges.
Unit cohesion is based on how much trust everyone has in each other - that means things like mind set, skill set, mental and physical endurance. But it also means how well anyone fits into the unit ethos.
You want to wear ladies underwear and play serious grab ass in the showers you will likely find yourself run over by a truck or tank while you are sleeping during night exercises or you will have a double malfunction on a jump before any sexual harassment charges are filed against you. The CID and chain of command will do their best to find different, but accidents happen.
In combat, not too many people give a shit about how gay you are, just as they tend not think about how black, white, brown, catholic, druidic, jewish, whatever you think you are. You are just dirty, tired, hungry, scared, pissed off and your breath smells like rotten garbage, just like everyone else. But if you are prone to malfunction you will be made right really fast or something will happen to keep you from killing people other than the enemy through your miserable self-centeredness.
Frankly, I think anything other than DADT will not help unit cohesion and thus is not a good idea. Just like I do not believe women belong in the infantry. The job is tough enough without having to coddle misfits of any type. Add the element of sexual tension to the already high stresses of combat, and even combat training, and you are going to have problems.
I personally think that sexual orientation is irrelevant to how a soldier performs so long as all sexual activity, and I am including heterosexual activity here as well, is kept private and off base, as far off base as is possible. Bring it on base, into the barracks, into a field environment, into the ranks and there will be pain, a pain Barney Frank is not going to butt wipe away for you no matter how many laws he passes.
If you wants respect in the service you have to sublimate much of your individuality (unless you pass selection and spend a couple of years in SF, hehehe.) The more you stand out in a way that is not job related the more likely it is you are going to feel pain. Now, pain can be a good thing. We grow and mature with pain. But it is still not something most seek out. Except Army Rangers. You have to love pain to be a Ranger.
You want to serve, forget all that you think you are that makes you think you are so different, unless all you think of is being a pro. Uncle Sam's Misquided Children, the NCO corps and every green tabber will let you know what they want from you and it won't be your flouncing ability, not at all. If you can stay focused on the mission, you will be alright. Start on some side road to "rights" and "respect my gayness" and you might as well stay in P-town, Key West and Castro Street. And you don't need a new set of rules for this.
However, discipline, especially in combat units that absolutely require it to function, tends to not escalate that readily to formal charges.
Unit cohesion is based on how much trust everyone has in each other - that means things like mind set, skill set, mental and physical endurance. But it also means how well anyone fits into the unit ethos.
You want to wear ladies underwear and play serious grab ass in the showers you will likely find yourself run over by a truck or tank while you are sleeping during night exercises or you will have a double malfunction on a jump before any sexual harassment charges are filed against you. The CID and chain of command will do their best to find different, but accidents happen.
In combat, not too many people give a shit about how gay you are, just as they tend not think about how black, white, brown, catholic, druidic, jewish, whatever you think you are. You are just dirty, tired, hungry, scared, pissed off and your breath smells like rotten garbage, just like everyone else. But if you are prone to malfunction you will be made right really fast or something will happen to keep you from killing people other than the enemy through your miserable self-centeredness.
Frankly, I think anything other than DADT will not help unit cohesion and thus is not a good idea. Just like I do not believe women belong in the infantry. The job is tough enough without having to coddle misfits of any type. Add the element of sexual tension to the already high stresses of combat, and even combat training, and you are going to have problems.
I personally think that sexual orientation is irrelevant to how a soldier performs so long as all sexual activity, and I am including heterosexual activity here as well, is kept private and off base, as far off base as is possible. Bring it on base, into the barracks, into a field environment, into the ranks and there will be pain, a pain Barney Frank is not going to butt wipe away for you no matter how many laws he passes.
If you wants respect in the service you have to sublimate much of your individuality (unless you pass selection and spend a couple of years in SF, hehehe.) The more you stand out in a way that is not job related the more likely it is you are going to feel pain. Now, pain can be a good thing. We grow and mature with pain. But it is still not something most seek out. Except Army Rangers. You have to love pain to be a Ranger.
You want to serve, forget all that you think you are that makes you think you are so different, unless all you think of is being a pro. Uncle Sam's Misquided Children, the NCO corps and every green tabber will let you know what they want from you and it won't be your flouncing ability, not at all. If you can stay focused on the mission, you will be alright. Start on some side road to "rights" and "respect my gayness" and you might as well stay in P-town, Key West and Castro Street. And you don't need a new set of rules for this.
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
Sadly this is true. Seems we usually have a choice between driving off the cliff with the throttle to the floor (and claiming there wouldn't be a cliff if we were going faster), or driving off the cliff with the throttle merely three-quarters of the way to the floor (whilst trumpeting the desire to stop the car, of course.) As long as a majority insists that we drive for the cliff, there probably isn't much difference. Then there are those who don't want to drive toward the cliff, but are willing to do so if their party will agree to run over some gays or Bible-thumpers on the way.
I do believe I have stretched that metaphor beyond all recovery . . .
hal2kilo
Lifer
- Feb 24, 2009
- 26,264
- 12,431
- 136
Nothing worse than in the closet self hating gays. Kind of like the people who want to keep pot illegal because they have no self control.
I don't mean to pick on religion, and I understand that most religious people are good people, but I think religious people make the funniest statements about this.
"Without God, I would be a sinner. I would rape children and hit bitches in the face with hammers and set hospitals on fire and"
wait... you what?
The issue with DADT is that it's discriminatory towards gays.
They can have rules against sexual behavior, conversation, etc., not just for gays.
- Oct 29, 2003
- 10,505
- 2
- 0
Right.. but MORE Democrats do.
To you, perhaps. The bias is strong in this one...
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