Megahertz marketing concept

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
141
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From Tom's Hardware...


While Pentium 4 is utterly unable to do as much "work" as AMD's Athlon XP per clock cycle, it still can boost the higher MHz or rather GHz number, which is what sells processors and systems to the not so computer literate majority out there.
 

JeremiahTheGreat

Senior member
Oct 19, 2001
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hence AMD's use of the rating system rather than the real Mhz of the CPU..

lets face it, higher Mhz only gets you no where faster.. (totally useless sentece there)
 

imgod2u

Senior member
Sep 16, 2000
993
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This is common knowledge nowadays. Of course, the masses still think MHz = performance, but then again, they probably won't notice much difference between their new "ultra" rig anyway. So really, it doesn't matter.
 

CoDerEd

Senior member
Jul 10, 2001
429
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I wished amd stick with the Mhz for their CPU name, PR rating just make everybody confused.
people can see from the bencmark if the 1.6Ghz Athlon is faster or slower compare to 1.6Ghz P4.
there is a lot of site and review we can see about the performance, how well they OC and so.

pEace
 

THUGSROOK

Elite Member
Feb 3, 2001
11,847
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actually im hoping intel will go to PR ratings ;)

according to Sandra, my PR rating is 3100 .... :D
 

Atif

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 2001
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CoDerEd, sure, they could do that, however, the main point in establishing the QuantiSpeed rating (which is different than the Performance Rating of the past) is to provide the average individual (who may not be as tech savvy as many of those whom you find online/in forums) with an effective bar of measurement to which they can say, 'this AMD-based computer is directly comparable with that Intel-based computer.' Sure, the actual core frequency IS different, however, why do consumers even look to the core frequency (MHz/GHz speed)? Because its been a 'given' in the past that an increase in core frequency would translate to higher performance because Intel, and AMD CPUs were following a very similar architectural design for their respective CPUs.

The K6-3 really was starting to go off on its own tangent, however, with the Athlon and Pentium III, it became clear that AMD had 'their way' and Intel theirs. Since then, clock frequencies ALONE have not been the best way to judge performance. Instead, another method had to be developed. If I'm not mistaken, AMD and Apple are both pushing for the development of a standard CPU marking system that takes into account not just clock speed, but various other factors as well. In this way, a manufacturer won't be able to tout the biggest number on paper, yet have the performance of a Cyrix 100MHz CPU.

If the new marking standard is accepted, Intel/AMD can clock a CPU at whatever speed they like: the bottom line will still remain, if the CPU can't perform, it won't have a higher marking than a competitor's CPU that has a lower clock speed but performs better overall (perhaps as result of a stronger FPU, or otherwise).

Also, for those people saying that the QuantiSpeed rating (as it pertains to Athlon XP and future AMD CPUs) is not reliable/trustworthy, really, I think that's just being ignorant. AMD does not mark the CPUs on their own. In fact, they contract an outside party unrelated to them (Arthur Andersen LLP) to test the CPUs (most of these results are published at AMD's website) and then AMD 'names' them accordingly.

All in all, I think its fair to say that the QuantiSpeed rating is fine (as it pertains to marketing) as it is generally targeted to the average consumer who may not be well aware that AMD's CPUs, despite having a lower clock frequency can easily perform with Intel's higher clocked CPUs. Also, on a side note, the reason I mentioned earlier that the older PR rating is different than the QuantiSpeed rating is because the PR rating used a very crude method of establishing a final number (rating) as was clearly evidenced by Cyrix's CPU offerings in the past (PR300 clocked at 133MHz or so :()

Finally, I believe (if I have remembered correctly) that AMD requires/requests that all resellers of both pre-built PCs and AMD CPUs clearly print the actual clock frequency of any given AMD Athlon XP CPU (for example, ads for AMD Athlon XP 1800+ WILL say "QuantiSpeed Architecture operates at 1533MHz and performs equivalently to 1800MHz CPUs")

Thanks for reading, have a good one
 

Sid03

Senior member
Nov 30, 2001
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and this just happens to be the same arthur andersen which is currently being indicted on federal charges for shredding documents in their partnership with enron. ummmm.... yeah, i really trust what arthur andersen has to say.
rolleye.gif


besides, arthur anderson doesn't decide on the pr rating, they just "validate" the benchmarks.

link



and no, amd doesn't require that anyone show the actual mhz. to the contrery, they don't even publish it themselves, in their press releases. if you look at their latest press release, youll see what i mean. also, check out the past several. no mention of actual clockspeed anywhere.
 

rogue1979

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2001
3,062
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The general public will always be fooled by the higher megahertz rating, Intel is very sharp for exploiting this fact. I simply buy the fastest processor for the money, no matter who makes it or what the speed rating is. I usually stay one step behind the top of the line for a great value. This is easy to do with cpus' since they are way ahead of the rest of the technology. I mean let's be realistic, If I had a Geforce 4 Ti4600 with my t-bird 1500MHz and upgraded to an XP2100 I might get a frame rate increase of 5%, if that. With all the settings on max my gaming might improve from 80fps to 85fps. Wow, that's worth a $220 investment!
 

AGodspeed

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2001
3,353
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Originally posted by: Sid03
and this just happens to be the same arthur andersen which is currently being indicted on federal charges for shredding documents in their partnership with enron. ummmm.... yeah, i really trust what arthur andersen has to say.
rolleye.gif

Intel, AMD, and many many many other companies have used Arthur Andersen for auditing. Why don't you question, for example, Intel.
rolleye.gif
(Or why don't you question IBM, even though IBM isn't directly comparable in this example). And just because Andersen audited AMD's benchmarks doesn't mean Andersen did so in an illegal manner. Unless of course you can prove otherwise...

Originally posted by: Sid03
and no, amd doesn't require that anyone show the actual mhz. to the contrery, they don't even publish it themselves, in their press releases. if you look at their latest press release, youll see what i mean. also, check out the past several. no mention of actual clockspeed anywhere.

Jeez, this is just too funny. Would you be saying the same thing if ATi or NVidia didn't mention the MHz of their video cards in their press releases? Somehow I doubt it. MHz is only one very small part of the performance picture, I assume you know this. MHz isn't as important as it used to be.

Besides, who doesn't know the MHz of AMD's PR rated processors? The vast majority of AMD's processor revenue comes from OEM's, and AMD's main OEM parter (HP-Compaq) clearly label the MHz of each PR rated AMD processor they sell. Not to mention the fact that any Joe Blow can do a search online and will pull up about 1 million sites that list each AMD PR rating's MHz. Is that so hard?

And as has been said in several threads in these forums before, AMD is probably deliberately trying to hide the MHz of their processors. Although I'm not sure why, since no Joe Blow reads press releases and since HP-CPQ already clearly labels the MHz next to the PR rating. Among more knowledgeable people though, AMD has nothing to hide about the MHz of their products.

Good lord Sid03, I've got to say, you're just a continuous FUD machine, even outside of the General Hardware forum...
 

Sid03

Senior member
Nov 30, 2001
244
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agodspeed, the only thing we've ever discussed (that i'm aware of) is amd pr. since you choose to love the pr, and i choose to see it as typical marketing bs, we have a difference of opinion.

but for some reason, instead of attempting to see my points, you just call whatever i have to say "fud", although it makes no sense:

fear: nope, i'm not scared of amd marketing
uncertainty: i'm quite certain of my opinion
doubt: i have no doubt as to what amd is doing

look, i really like amd. i own a t-bird system and plan on getting a hammer system (if/when i can afford it. it looks like it'll be pretty expensive.) nonetheless, i have no loyalties to any computer company. and i'm not sure why you are so zealous to defend amd's marketing. i really don't get it.

And as has been said in several threads in these forums before, AMD is probably deliberately trying to hide the MHz of their processors.
so, we agree.

Would you be saying the same thing if ATi or NVidia didn't mention the MHz of their video cards in their press releases?
yep, i sure would... if they chose to use a "rating" that was so similar to mhz.

Besides, who doesn't know the MHz of AMD's PR rated processors?
i've seen it misrepresented here quite a few times. just the other day, someone said that another guy should get a 1800+ instead of a 1900+ because "the extra 100mhz" isnt' worth it. without looking it up, i don't know what a athon 1800+ and 1900+ actual speed is. i do know that they are 66mhz apart though.

Not to mention the fact that any Joe Blow can do a search online
i agree. but what average "joe blow" does that?

Intel, AMD, and many many many other companies have used Arthur Andersen for auditing. Why don't you question, for example, Intel. (Or why don't you question IBM, even though IBM isn't directly comparable in this example).
i certainly would question anyone using arthur anderson. what does ibm and intel use them for, specifically?

i have quite a few investments. some in high-tech, most not. if i found out that arthur andersen was working closely with one of the companies i invested with, i'd take a very hard look at whether or not i should pull my money. they've been nothing but trouble for more than a couple companies now.

does that mean that they lied for amd. of course not. but does their presence "validate" anything? absolutely not.

MHz is only one very small part of the performance picture
again, you are very correct. but it IS a part. and a part that amd wants to hide. there are many "small parts of the performance picture", and i'd like to know them all.


again, just because we choose to disagree, you don't have the right to put down my opinion. i don't put yours (or anyone else's) down.
 

CoDerEd

Senior member
Jul 10, 2001
429
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THUGSROOK
I think you right if AMD don't want to use the Mhz then Intel should go with PR Rating.
 

imgod2u

Senior member
Sep 16, 2000
993
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The best way to solve this problem is to have a third party (or several since someone always has something against a specific third party) come up with a rating scale and have both companies use it. Back in the days, Ziff Davis was such a scale (well, whatever he judged as better was). But I don't suppose Intel, with its billions and billions of dollars of advertising budget, would have any reason to do such a thing. A pity. I'm not much for the PR system but I have to say this, what is the big deal? It's marketing.
 

AGodspeed

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2001
3,353
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AGodspeed:

Would you be saying the same thing if ATi or NVidia didn't mention the MHz of their video cards in their press releases?

Sid03:

yep, i sure would... if they chose to use a "rating" that was so similar to mhz.

The AMD PR rating is a marketing tactic. Why do you continously treat the rating as if it's doing wrong?

Sid03:

i've seen it misrepresented here quite a few times. just the other day, someone said that another guy should get a 1800+ instead of a 1900+ because "the extra 100mhz" isnt' worth it. without looking it up, i don't know what a athon 1800+ and 1900+ actual speed is. i do know that they are 66mhz apart though.

AMD's OEM partners and the Internet in general reveal the MHz of AMD's processors, it's simply not a big deal.

Lol, and I guess Intel is "hiding" the fact that the Pentium 4's 20 stage integer pipeline reduces performance on a per-clock basis compared to previous generation Pentiums?

Point is, AMD and Intel hide certain things they don't want the public to know about, stop pinning this on AMD as if they're the only one doing it, it's starting to get old!

AGodspeed:

MHz is only one very small part of the performance picture

Sid03:

again, you are very correct. but it IS a part. and a part that amd wants to hide. there are many "small parts of the performance picture", and i'd like to know them all.

Lol, and I suppose you would ask Intel to display in their press releases the fact that the Pentium 4's 20 stage integer pipeline reduces performance on a per-clock basis versus previous generation Pentiums, which is "misleading" and "confusing" when you look at it from a purely MHz standpoint, right? Puhlease...

AMD's marketing tactic is the PR rating (which can be misleading). Intel's marketing tactic is the MHz rating (which can be misleading).

But you only bash the PR rating and AMD's exclusion of the MHz of their processors from press releases. Yet somehow Intel isn't guilty of the same thing? (Like not revealing the P4's 20 stage integer pipeline).
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
PR/Mhz etc, only benches should be needed.

Maybe we could see an Annandtech or THG report tacked below all PC's in the showroooms, for the average consumers to read.

?
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
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Thugsy, if I'm not mistaken, the PR rating in Sandra is based on the old Cyrix PR scheme. ;)

Whether that's the case or not, I doubt Intel will adopt a PR rating because it would underline in BOLD CAPITAL ITALICIZED UNDERLINED LETTERS that their new 1.7GHz "Celeron 4" is probably slower in many areas than a Celeron 1.3A. I have to agree that this is a good move from a manufacturing perspective, basing everything on one socket design and CPU family, but they really should have given the darn things 256k of cache. As it is, it has the appearance of a cheap trick that positions the Celeron 4, as I call it, in the same neighborhood as an AthlonXP. I don't think that's going to be a good matchup... what about the rest of you?

All right, so that's a vast generalization, but any Intel PR scheme that's honest is going to have to show that the Celeron 4 is not as powerful per MHz as the Northwoods or Northwood-B's. And since Intel has high MHz ratings, I don't think they'd want to promote such an idea when it's one of their competitor's main strategies.

edit because I'm a grammar freak :D
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
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A couple of days ago I was discussing SPECInt scores of modern CPU's with a colleague of mine who works as a CPU manufacturer for a major RISC CPU server manufacturer and he commented, "The Pentium 4's SPECInt score is simply unachieveable with a typical RISC design. How can a 12 stage pipeline compete with a 20 stage with that level of branch prediction?". I thought that was interesting and then I compare it to the statements on here.

The fact is that a 5 pipe stage design will achieve more instructions per clock than a 10 pipe stage design. The amount of logic that you can cram in between clock stages is larger so the clock will run slower and yet you will get more done because you more time to do things in. But the question is which one will have the highest overall performance and this question has been around for as long as there have been pipelined CPUs. There has been a longstanding debate in the microprocessor design community about high IPC versus low IPC for the highest performance designs - it's called the Brainiacs vs. Speed Demons debate (search on Google for "Brainiacs" and "Speed Demons"). And this thread is another version of this same debate that has been going on for well over 15 years.

It is encapsulated in this article from Microprocessor Report. There is one quote that is as true today as it was back then:

But a chip becomes a Speed Demon through microarchitecture design philosophy, not IC process gains. The Speed Demon philosophy is best summed up by an Alpha designer who said that a processor's cycle time should be the minimum required to cycle an ALU and pass the result to the next instruction. The processor can implement any amount of complexity so long as it doesn't compromise this primary goal of ultimate speed. One thing hasn't changed: Speed Demons still deliver the best performance.

Particularly this is true in SpecInt. So whether or not people want to argue that the Pentium 4's design is a marketing gimmick or not, doesn't change reality - it is the fastest SpecInt CPU available. A CPU design is an incredibly balanced engineering machine. You balance a whole lot of variables to achieve an optimal goal - performance. I would argue that you couldn't achieve this goal by sacrificing everything in the name of clock frequency. You simply can't. You don't end up with a high performance design by pushing one thing to the detriment of all others. The Pentium 4 is a very balanced design and it's clock frequency was carefully crafted to maximize performance. If you choose not to believe this statement, then you can do so, but I think the proof is simply in the performance.

Yes, the instructions per clock are lower - but this isn't deceptive and it's not mere marketing- this is a fundamental fact of microprocessor design... if you want to clock a design as high as possible, you get less done per each clock. And the fact is that the highest clock designs have the highest performance. The Speed Demons have been winning for a long time, and it will continue to be this way into the future.

You can argue that there should be some form of performance rating system to guage performance regardless of clock frequency, and I would say that we already have such a system and it's called SPEC. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. In fact, I think it's about the best that you can hope for. I don't know that consumers would pay attention to SPEC scores, so how to get consumers to think about the complete performance picture is another challenge altogether.
 

ShadowDJ

Senior member
Mar 6, 2002
365
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I think all of us ore overestimating the general public here. There are some people who assemble their own PC's, (A VERY low % of the market) but most don't even know what graphics card they have, let alone what processor they have. I have a friend who bought a Dell. I asked him what it had, and he replied, "It's 7200 rpms and it's got two GeForces." Come on, guys. The people who would actually look up the PC on the internet is probably low, also. Many people also simply take the Intel name to mean higher performance and stability. Though intel does have a lead in the really high end, how many people are buying the 2.53b in their Dell?
Dude! You're getting a PR Rating!!!

:D