mechanic didn't fix the problem... what're my options ?

[rh71]

Brought a '90 Accord into the local mechanic here for a check engine light, that I knew had to do with fuel transfer to the engine... or something along those lines. The code that came back was "low fuel pressure" and he said "the first step would be to change the fuel filter." So we went ahead and said ok for that, along with a full-tune up since we needed new plugs and everything. $320 later, the car worked fine for the past 2 weeks... up until yesterday when the car wouldn't seem to accelerate past 1st gear again. After 10 minutes of this, it started moving normally once more. Driving home, it started to "choke" again and the check engine lamp comes on...

The mechanic won't be in till tomorrow, when I'll call him.

But what are my options here? The receipt clearly states there's a 1-year warranty on parts and labor. But does this cover actually fixing the problem again since it wasn't fixed the first time? He assumed a new fuel filter would do it, and 15 miles of test driving after proved it correct. It's happening again now 2 weeks later... should he be fixing it for free? Even if it turns out to be another part gone wrong ?

***UPDATE*** Read the 04/28/2003 post down below...

 

[ElFenix]

if its another part then no, it shouldn't be covered.

 

[Adul]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
if its another part then no, it shouldn't be covered.

 

[notfred]

If it's your fuel filter or your new spark plugs, yes he should fix it again for free.

Only way it's your fuel filter though is if your gas tank is full of rust, and then you're going to need a new gas tank, which wont be covered.

 

[HappyPuppy]

The mechanic will say that he fixed the original problem and that this is a new problem. His proof, to a small claims court judge, would be that it was test driven and it ran fine for 2 weeks.

That said, take it back to him, possibly a part he replaced went bad.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: notfred
If it's your fuel filter or your new spark plugs, yes he should fix it again for free.

Only way it's your fuel filter though is if your gas tank is full of rust, and then you're going to need a new gas tank, which wont be covered.

notfred has, as usual, hit the nail on the head. I will say one thing though, if the fuel filter is clogged again, then I doubt that it will be free since that's from wear and is not a defect in the filter.

ZV

 

[rh71]

Interesting... a gas tank as a replaceable part... how much do those run for a '90 Accord? <$100 ?

Then again, this would purely be speculation right? I don't know if I should "ok" another speculative guess by the same mechanic. What other parts on a car could cause "low fuel pressure" ?

For clarity, all parts replaced:

- plug wires
- air filter
- ngk spark plugs
- ignition rotor
- distributor cap
- fuel filter

 

[element]

Originally posted by: rh71
Interesting... a gas tank as a replaceable part... how much do those run for a '90 Accord? <$100 ?

Then again, this would purely be speculation right? I don't know if I should "ok" another speculative guess by the same mechanic. What other parts on a car could cause "low fuel pressure" ?

For clarity, all parts replaced:

- plug wires
- air filter
- ngk spark plugs
- ignition rotor
- distributor cap
- fuel filter

Fuel pump?

 

[rh71]

Someone on the Edmunds.com boards had a similar problem, but only in cold weather. He stated the problem was a "heated O2 sensor"... does it apply here ? Sounds off-the-wall.

Also let me try to attack this another way... what happens to a car when you run out of gas? Does it choke like this or does it cut the engine completely right away?

If a fuel pump (or fuel injector) is another possible problem, I wonder why the mechanic didn't look into this first, instead of suggesting the first thing he would do is actually replace the fuel filter. I guess that's why I'm asking what my options are and if he should be responsible for diagnosing the problem correctly the first time. :|

 

[element]

The fuel filter is easier to replace, so it makes sense to start with that. It also would have made better sense to replace the fuel pump rather than the regular tune up you got instead, given the low fuel pressure indication.

Having said that, you probably needed a tune up anyway, if all those parts were old, but the fuel pump should also have been at the top of the list. You won't be able to get it done for free though as he hadn't touched that yet.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

When he replaced the fuel filter, could you/he tell if it was clogged?

 

[NutBucket]

Originally posted by: rh71
Someone on the Edmunds.com boards had a similar problem, but only in cold weather. He stated the problem was a "heated O2 sensor"... does it apply here ? Sounds off-the-wall.

Also let me try to attack this another way... what happens to a car when you run out of gas? Does it choke like this or does it cut the engine completely right away?

If a fuel pump (or fuel injector) is another possible problem, I wonder why the mechanic didn't look into this first, instead of suggesting the first thing he would do is actually replace the fuel filter. I guess that's why I'm asking what my options are and if he should be responsible for diagnosing the problem correctly the first time. :|

The fuel filter is the cheapest thing to replace and the simplest. Makes the most sense to start there since it should be replaced anyway as part of regular maintainence. Anyway, the O2 could be faulty but it doesn't sound like its the culprit here. It can easily be tested, however. I'm too lazy to look up possible causes in my service manual but I would guess that there might be a problem with either the pump or the regulator. He is not necessarily responsible for diagnosing the problem completely since what he did fixed the problem for a couple of weeks. In his opinion the problem was fixed and you got the car back, which seems reasonable given the facts.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
When he replaced the fuel filter, could you/he tell if it was clogged?

No, I didn't bother to ask then. When we went to pick it up, the guy wasn't there... just some kid who accepted payment and gave us the receipt. We were just happy it was "fixed" ...

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: NutBucket

Originally posted by: rh71
Someone on the Edmunds.com boards had a similar problem, but only in cold weather. He stated the problem was a "heated O2 sensor"... does it apply here ? Sounds off-the-wall.

Also let me try to attack this another way... what happens to a car when you run out of gas? Does it choke like this or does it cut the engine completely right away?

If a fuel pump (or fuel injector) is another possible problem, I wonder why the mechanic didn't look into this first, instead of suggesting the first thing he would do is actually replace the fuel filter. I guess that's why I'm asking what my options are and if he should be responsible for diagnosing the problem correctly the first time. :|

The fuel filter is the cheapest thing to replace and the simplest. Makes the most sense to start there since it should be replaced anyway as part of regular maintainence. Anyway, the O2 could be faulty but it doesn't sound like its the culprit here. It can easily be tested, however. I'm too lazy to look up possible causes in my service manual but I would guess that there might be a problem with either the pump or the regulator. He is not necessarily responsible for diagnosing the problem completely since what he did fixed the problem for a couple of weeks. In his opinion the problem was fixed and you got the car back, which seems reasonable given the facts.

Fuel pump or fuel regulator... are 2 things that he could check for without actually replacing it first right? My point is I don't want to have to pay for more trial and error...

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
When he replaced the fuel filter, could you/he tell if it was clogged?

No, I didn't bother to ask then. When we went to pick it up, the guy wasn't there... just some kid who accepted payment and gave us the receipt. We were just happy it was "fixed" ...

This is why i always talk to my mechanic in person and ask if he saw anything odd. Then again, my mechanic is a friend of the family's. Who else has their mechanic at wedding receptions, family get togethers and the like? We like talking anyways, especially about cars.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: rh71
Fuel pump or fuel regulator... are 2 things that he could check for without actually replacing it first right? My point is I don't want to have to pay for more trial and error...

The fuel pump in almost always inside the fuel tank. Lots of labor to pull the pump to look at it. Testing relays (I assume that you mean the fuel pump relay when you say "regulator") can be time consuming as well. A faulty relay would cause the fuel pump to stop completely, it would not cause a low pressure situation.

The fuel filter will cause this sort of problem perhaps 90% of the time, so it's the first thing to check. Most of the cost to replace the filter will be labor anyway, and the labor is the same to take the old one off and put it on again as it is to take the old one off and put a new one on. So if he had found nothing wrong with the old fuel filter, you would not have saved much money and it's better to have the new filter regardless.

In short, the mechanic hasn't done anything shockingly wrong in this situation. You could have him go over everything that could possibly cause this problem, but then you're probably looking at a $600+ bill just for the diagnostic work, not including the parts and labor needed to fix it.

ZV

 

[NutBucket]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: NutBucket

Originally posted by: rh71
Someone on the Edmunds.com boards had a similar problem, but only in cold weather. He stated the problem was a "heated O2 sensor"... does it apply here ? Sounds off-the-wall.

Also let me try to attack this another way... what happens to a car when you run out of gas? Does it choke like this or does it cut the engine completely right away?

If a fuel pump (or fuel injector) is another possible problem, I wonder why the mechanic didn't look into this first, instead of suggesting the first thing he would do is actually replace the fuel filter. I guess that's why I'm asking what my options are and if he should be responsible for diagnosing the problem correctly the first time. :|

The fuel filter is the cheapest thing to replace and the simplest. Makes the most sense to start there since it should be replaced anyway as part of regular maintainence. Anyway, the O2 could be faulty but it doesn't sound like its the culprit here. It can easily be tested, however. I'm too lazy to look up possible causes in my service manual but I would guess that there might be a problem with either the pump or the regulator. He is not necessarily responsible for diagnosing the problem completely since what he did fixed the problem for a couple of weeks. In his opinion the problem was fixed and you got the car back, which seems reasonable given the facts.

Fuel pump or fuel regulator... are 2 things that he could check for without actually replacing it first right? My point is I don't want to have to pay for more trial and error...

He can test the pressure coming out of the pump. The regulator, not sure how to test that.

 

[tcsenter]

But what are my options here? The receipt clearly states there's a 1-year warranty on parts and labor. But does this cover actually fixing the problem again since it wasn't fixed the first time? He assumed a new fuel filter would do it, and 15 miles of test driving after proved it correct. It's happening again now 2 weeks later... should he be fixing it for free? Even if it turns out to be another part gone wrong?

In a word, no.

So you're suggesting that if the problem turns out to be a $200 fuel pump, that he should replace that for the whopping $20.00 profit he made on the fuel filter job, costing him $180 to service your vehicle? Does that make any sense to you at all?

Vehicle service, like computer service, is done on a reasonable suspicion basis. What I mean by that is, if it was reasonable for the mechanic suspect the problem to be "A", and he performs service to fix "A", but it later turns out that the problem is "B", he is under no obligation to fix "B" at no additional cost.

Few problems can be pin-pointed to the precise cause with 100% certainty. He could have checked the fuel pressure to rule-out the fuel filter, but that would have added labor costs which would have probably exceeded the cost of just going ahead and replacing the filter.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

But what are my options here? The receipt clearly states there's a 1-year warranty on parts and labor. But does this cover actually fixing the problem again since it wasn't fixed the first time? He assumed a new fuel filter would do it, and 15 miles of test driving after proved it correct. It's happening again now 2 weeks later... should he be fixing it for free? Even if it turns out to be another part gone wrong?

In a word, no.

So you're suggesting that if the problem turns out to be a $200 fuel pump, that he should replace that for the whopping $20.00 profit he made on the fuel filter job, costing him $180 to service your vehicle? Does that make any sense to you at all?

I AIN'T suggesting anything. I'm asking because I do not know. It's a common thing among these forums... Thanks.

 

[Cfour]

He started by trying what would be a basic/cheapest solution for you and your check engine light went off, so it sounds like he did the right thing. Whatever else is wrong with the car is your responsibility to pay for.

 

[Rastus]

He went for the quick fix and it didn't work. That's not his fault. Your fuel pump is the next likely suspect.

BTW, with fuel pumps mounted in the fuel tank, always try to keep a lot of fuel in the tank as the fuel acts as coolant for the pump. If you are constantly running your fuel tank near dry, your fuel pump will have a shorter lifespan.

 

[rh71]

Just thought I'd update you on what's going on with this neverending-fix-me-up car... (I say that because there have been multiple problems with different parts since acquiring it from a friend back in '98)...

So I bring it down to the mechanic again... he states he doesn't remember if the fuel filter was clogged or not (understandable since it's been 2 weeks since he worked on the car)... so I ask him to re-check the filter. It looks fine he says. They test drove it for 2 days and they never came upon the problem. The check engine light that came on (before I took it in this last time) got cleared when I turned the car off that Saturday when I couldn't bring it in.

So they have no code to work with and there's no sign of the car stuttering, but we know it happened. Only option now is to wait for it to happen again and hopefully they'll be open so they can check for the code, etc.

WTF could the problem be? I asked about a malfunctioning fuel pump and he stated there's no way that's the culprit since that would entail the engine getting cut off, etc., which never happened to us... it simply stuttered for about 10 minutes while in 1st gear (at 1st gear speeds) and returned back to normal state all of a sudden. Stuck at a point where we need to sell this car vs. having to buy another used car a couple of years later since we'll need 2. :|

 

[Ornery]

Too late for you now, but a friend of mine talked me into taking mine to a dealer next time it needs troubleshooting. His reasoning was that, even though dealers charge more, they're more likely to fix it the first time. They see hundreds of cars just like yours, and know about idiosyncrasies of the various models and years. Made sense to me!

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

I have a question.

Does your gas tank have a cap? the thing you take off when you fill up. Check there too, make sure it is sealing correctly. I had an old Mirage that had that problem.

 

[Thegonagle]

If the Check Engine code indeed indicated low fuel pressure, the next logical thing to diagnose and replace would be the fuel pressure regulator. It's a mechanical device on the end of the fuel rail that bleeds off the excess pressure delivered by the fuel pump via a return line to the fuel tank.