Meanwhile in Iraq

[Steeplerot]

You mean, "free" from their earthly bounds?

Yes, unfortunately.

 

[KlokWyze]

Anyone who thinks we went there to free the poor Iraqi people and give them a better life watches too many soap operas and reality tv. We went to kick Saddam's ass, make money for the wealthy at tax payer expense, and set up a military base next to Iran.

:thumbsup:

If you look @ the strategic/political decisions made by Bremer in the first year of the invasion/occupation, they clearly wanted a drawn out conflict.

"Let's see... yes let's disband the army, putting hundreds of thousands of men w/ combat training out on the streets with no money." BRILLIANT

 

[Elias824]

How dose all this compare to the amount of crime in lets say los angles?

 

[piasabird]

The USA has no business trying to reform the countries in the Middle East into something resembling democracy. I think the blood of our soldiers is worth more than that. Why waste good American Dollars on trying to create this imaginary Muslim Utopia where everyone loves respects their fellow man and all religions live together in peace and harmony???? It is never going to happen. Pull out our soldiers now.

 

[Lemon law]

The USA has no business trying to reform the countries in the Middle East into something resembling democracy. I think the blood of our soldiers is worth more than that. Why waste good American Dollars on trying to create this imaginary Muslim Utopia where everyone loves respects their fellow man and all religions live together in peace and harmony???? It is never going to happen. Pull out our soldiers now.

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While I can agree with piasabird in most of that position, the glaring illogic that needs to be stated and challenged is in the first sentence.

Its not a matter that the USA can not make it their business to bring improvement and democracy to other nations, the current problem is and remains, the USA is now absolutely incompetent at nation building. And hence screw up and wreck any nation we touch.

Under wiser leadership after WW2, the USA did a fine job at Nation rebuilding in Germany and Japan, and while we were at it the USA helped rebuild bomb ravaged Europe.

 

[classy]

Mission Accomplished?

In Iraq, assassinations are a nightly event.

05/03/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb wounds Iraq's grain board director in southeastern Baghdad
A sticky bomb attached to a vehicle carrying Iraq's grain board director, Hassan Ibrahim, wounded him and a passer-by and killed his driver when it went off in southeastern Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 3 people in southern Baghdad
A roadside bomb went off and wounded three people, including one policeman, in Baghdad's southern Doura district, an Interior Ministry source said.
05/03/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds civilian in central Baghdad
A roadside bomb wounded one civilian when it exploded in central Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb kills municipality employee in eastern Baghdad[/B]
A sticky bomb attached to the car of a Baghdad municipality female employee killed her when it went off in eastern Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Gunmen kill civilian in western Mosul
Gunmen using silenced weapons killed a civilian in front of his house late on Monday in western Mosul, police said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Gunmen kill 2 civilians in northwestern Baghdad
Gunmen on a speeding motorcycle using silenced weapons killed two civilians late on Monday in Baghdad's northwestern Hurriya District, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/02/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb wounds four people in Hilla
A sticky bomb attached to a car in a parking lot exploded, wounding four people, in the city of Hilla, 100 km (62 miles) south of Baghdad, said Major-General Fadhil Razaq, the chief of police in Babil province.

05/02/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb kills 3 people in Sadr City district
A roadside bomb exploded near a police station, killing three civilians and wounding 14, in Baghdad's northeastern Sadr City district, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/02/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 3 people in central Baghdad
BAGHDAD - A roadside bomb went off near a cafe and wounded three people in Baghdad's central Abu Nawas Street, an Interior Ministry source said.


^^^ Just in the last two days.

Certainly, some Iraqis are far better off now that Saddam is gone. Many, however, are not.

My question is, was the budget breaking and heart breaking cost to us in national treasure and the lives of our young men and women even remotely worth the result?

By many accounts, Iran seems to be the big winner here. Is THIS what we wanted?

These things are up to the Iraqi forces to deal with. When we leave they will get tired of being killed and fight back. But we have to leave first. I wouldn't be surpirsed to see the bombings stop after we leave. They are only doing it to keep our attention anyway, they are killing their own mostly now.

 

[Nebor]

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While I can agree with piasabird in most of that position, the glaring illogic that needs to be stated and challenged is in the first sentence.

Its not a matter that the USA can not make it their business to bring improvement and democracy to other nations, the current problem is and remains, the USA is now absolutely incompetent at nation building. And hence screw up and wreck any nation we touch.

Under wiser leadership after WW2, the USA did a fine job at Nation rebuilding in Germany and Japan, and while we were at it the USA helped rebuild bomb ravaged Europe.

Look at the financial and debt problems facing Europe now, as well as illegal immigration problems. The Japanese have serious economic problems and negative population growth! I think the Iraqis have it better.

 

[Zebo]

These things are up to the Iraqi forces to deal with. When we leave they will get tired of being killed and fight back. But we have to leave first. I wouldn't be surpirsed to see the bombings stop after we leave. They are only doing it to keep our attention anyway, they are killing their own mostly now.

Not going to happen. They like dying more than we like living.

 

[CallMeJoe]

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld tells hundreds of US military personnel gathered at the US Aviano airbase in northern Italy that Washington does not expect a possible war with Iraq to last long and is not planning to mobilise all its reservists. He says a war with Iraq, if it happens, would last "six days, maybe six weeks" but certainly less than six months. (Rumsfeld, press briefing, US airbase in Aviano, Italy, February 7, 2003)
"It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could be six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."
- Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 2/7/03
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2738089.stm)
"The idea that it's going to be a long, long, long battle of some kind I think is belied by the fact of what happened in 1990. Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."- Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 11/15/02
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/20/iraq-retrospective-read-_n_92575.html)
------------
Now stfu.

Technically, Secretary Rumsfeld was correct. The war against Iraq's army was over in a matter of weeks. Unfortunately the Bush administration was entirely unprepared for the aftermath of that war.
Iraq 2003 gave us a new concept of Pyrrhic Victory.

 

[Perknose]

05/09/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 6 people in central Baghdad
A roadside bomb in central Baghdad went off near a police patrol and wounded six people, including two policemen, police said.

05/09/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 7 people in southern Baghdad
Two civilians were wounded by a roadside bomb in Baghdad's southern district of Doura, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/09/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds two civilians in southern Baghdad
Two civilians were wounded by a roadside bomb in Baghdad's southern district of Doura, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/09/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb kills one person northeast of Baghdad
A sticky bomb attached to the car of Hassan Jasim, a leader at the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council (ISCI), killed him in northeast of Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/09/11 Reuters: Bomb planted in front of a liquor store wounds owner
A bomb planted in front of a liquor store in central Baghdad wounded the owner and burned down the shop, late on Sunday, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/09/11 Reuters: Policeman killed in clash in western Mosul
A border policeman was killed in a clash with smugglers on the Iraqi-Syrian border late on Sunday in western Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

05/09/11 Reuters: Gunmen kill electricity operator in Talafar
Gunmen using weapons equipped with silencers shot dead an electricity operator, late on Sunday in Talafar, about 420 km (260 miles) northwest of Baghdad, police said.

05/08/11 BBC: Iraqi al-Qaeda leader 'among 15 dead in jail mutiny'
At least 11 inmates and four police officers have died in a mutiny at a counter-terrorism prison in Baghdad. Al-Qaeda leader Huthaifa al-Batawi, accused of masterminding the deadly siege of a Baghdad church last October, reportedly led the revolt.

05/07/11 AP: 5 killed in a robbery north of Baghdad
Iraqi army and health officials say at least five people have been killed in what appeared to be a coordinated attack on a currency exchange office in a city north of Baghdad.

05/07/11 Reuters: Bomb wounds two policemen in southern Baghdad
Two policemen were wounded while trying to defuse a bomb attached to a car outside a house in Baghdad's southern Doura district, an Interior Ministry source said. The source said the owner of the car was also wounded.

05/07/11 Reuters: Gunmen kill policeman in central Baghdad
Gunmen in a speeding car, using silenced weapons, killed a policeman in Baghdad's central Karrada district late on Friday, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/07/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounda five people in northeastern Baghdad
A roadside bomb went off and wounded five people in Baghdad's northeastern district of Ur late on Friday, an Interior Ministry source said.

 

[sandorski]

Why do you hate their Freedom?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Iraq needed someone with a iron hand to keep all the opposing factions in check.

We created a vacuum and nature abhors a vacuum.

And the US is uncomfortable with putting in another iron hand. However, that is the only way that country will work over the next 20-30 years.

 

[skyking]

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While I can agree with piasabird in most of that position, the glaring illogic that needs to be stated and challenged is in the first sentence.

Its not a matter that the USA can not make it their business to bring improvement and democracy to other nations, the current problem is and remains, the USA is now absolutely incompetent at nation building. And hence screw up and wreck any nation we touch.

Under wiser leadership after WW2, the USA did a fine job at Nation rebuilding in Germany and Japan, and while we were at it the USA helped rebuild bomb ravaged Europe.

It is not a valid comparison IMO. Iraq was an artificial construct, lines on a map held together by a totally ruthless regime. Throughout history Iraq was ruled from without for the most part, and was at war internally the rest of the time. We took the cork off the bottle so to speak.
Japan had been a unified country for centuries, as was Germany. It is much easier to rebuild a nation that has some sort of national self-image.

 

[cubby1223]

Its not a matter that the USA can not make it their business to bring improvement and democracy to other nations, the current problem is and remains, the USA is now absolutely incompetent at nation building. And hence screw up and wreck any nation we touch.

Are you seriously *that* dense? "Nation building" doesn't happen overnight. There are deep cultural hatreds in that country that can not be eliminated, change can only come when they die off and the next generation of Iraqis grow up and take charge. And that takes a looooong time, and is not something that can be sped up by any substantial means.

 

[cubby1223]

And Perknose? Do you wish me to start posting headlines of all the crimes and murders that take place in the U.S. on a daily basis? In *any* country on a daily basis?

Wow, there is violence in Iraq? Who would have guessed?!!!!

Want to look at Oakland's headlines? Detroit? Would you come to the conclusion that the U.S. would be better off with a brutal dictator than our Democracy? Because that's part of the argument you're putting forward for Iraq. Would you say we should not sacrifice our police officers to keep our cities safe? Or are we Americans a higher class of people, our lives are more valuable than Iraqi citizens? They're not worth aiding? If that is your argument, fine, so be it. I'm just curious. It's better for a brown person to die than a white person? "heart breaking cost to us in national treasure and the lives of our young men and women" Everything is okay so long as it is their innocent people dying?

 

[skyking]

I see, so the whole invading the country and killing both civilians and the military in the process, along with our soldiers was an accident?

 

[Perknose]

And Perknose? Do you wish me to start posting headlines of all the crimes and murders that take place in the U.S. on a daily basis? In *any* country on a daily basis?

Yes, fine, list all the BOMBINGS and POLITICAL ASSASSINATIONS that happen in the US on a daily basis.

Start with your next post in this thread. List them ALL for the last two weeks, even, so as to catch up.

 

[werepossum]

This aptly shows the difference between left and right. The right says they are now free and fewer people are being murdered, but they have a major problem with terrorism. The left looks fondly at the good old days when they lived under a dictator and the government had a monopoly on murder. Being firmly to the right, I would much prefer living free, knowing that there are terrorists who may kill me and a government trying to prevent it. The left, as usual, prefers the orderliness of living under a dictator who may kill you with no one trying to prevent it.

 

[Arglebargle]

Technically, Secretary Rumsfeld was correct. The war against Iraq's army was over in a matter of weeks. Unfortunately the Bush administration was entirely unprepared for the aftermath of that war.
Iraq 2003 gave us a new concept of Pyrrhic Victory.

The war was planned and started with completely unrealistic expectations. Chalabi and crew had been feeding the Cheney/Rumsfeld axis a line of BS, and they bit it hook, line and sinker. Rumsfeld also showed he had no realistic clue how much the Iraqi incursion was going to cost. Regardless of your views on the invasion, as a country we have the right to expect it to be handled smartly. Which it wasn't.


They weren't prepared for what happened, because they'd given no real thought to what could go wrong. Ooops. The pre-occupation (and post-occupation) with Iraq also meant that Afganistan went on the back burner, and from there, to hell. As a result Pakistan was further destablized as well.

And even the best case scenarios of more democratically elected governments in the Middle East can lead to things like Hamas or the Islamic Brotherhood becoming the new leaders.

Not worth the cost to have done such a half assed job. Pyrrhic Victory indeed. Except that Pyrrhus, the general for whom that was named, was actually quit competant to start with.

 

[skyking]

This aptly shows the difference between left and right. The right says they are now free and fewer people are being murdered, but they have a major problem with terrorism. The left looks fondly at the good old days when they lived under a dictator and the government had a monopoly on murder. Being firmly to the right, I would much prefer living free, knowing that there are terrorists who may kill me and a government trying to prevent it. The left, as usual, prefers the orderliness of living under a dictator who may kill you with no one trying to prevent it.

In some other country we chose to invade. Nobody "looks fondly" at the good old days of Iraq. Move to Iraq and help them out if you want, but the whole basis of your argument is skewed. Our country deposed the dictator at great cost, and replaced it with what?

 

[werepossum]

In some other country we chose to invade. Nobody "looks fondly" at the good old days of Iraq. Move to Iraq and help them out if you want, but the whole basis of your argument is skewed. Our country deposed the dictator at great cost, and replaced it with what?

A democratically elected government with a constitution ratified by its people - things to which the left pays lip service but little more.

 

[Vic Vega]

Yes, this is what we wanted.

The Iraqi's are free to elect representatives that will enact policies that in theory will support the electorates will.

And, if they don't, the electorate can have issue with those representatives.

What they won't have is a brutal dictator that we helped into power randomly killing, raping, and terrorizing the populace because he, his sons, and their regime think it's fun.

Instead, it's their own neighbors.

So finally, they'll have to look into the mirror: No longer will it be the Hated West (that delusion only works for so long).

That is the point of going into Iraq.

Chuck

/thread

 

[MarkXIX]

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Under wiser leadership after WW2, the USA did a fine job at Nation rebuilding in Germany and Japan, and while we were at it the USA helped rebuild bomb ravaged Europe.

The difference is that the Japanese and Germans were intelligent and not riddled with illiteracy rates like most nations in the Middle East.

 

[werepossum]

The difference is that the Japanese and Germans were intelligent and not riddled with illiteracy rates like most nations in the Middle East.

That's certainly true of many Middle East nations (and even more so of Afghanistan), but Iraqis seem to be fairly intelligent and literate. Some of our difficulties can be tied to Islam, some to the Arabic culture, but a large part is in our own missteps. Unlike the Underpants Gnomes, our question mark was at step 3.
1. Remove Saddam and his evil government.
2. Iraqis cheer.
3. ?

Some better planning of Step 3 would have worked wonders. As things stand, it's not at all clear that Iraq will ever be worth (to us) the price we paid.