Meanwhile in Iraq

[Perknose]

Mission Accomplished?

In Iraq, assassinations are a nightly event.

05/03/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb wounds Iraq's grain board director in southeastern Baghdad
A sticky bomb attached to a vehicle carrying Iraq's grain board director, Hassan Ibrahim, wounded him and a passer-by and killed his driver when it went off in southeastern Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 3 people in southern Baghdad
A roadside bomb went off and wounded three people, including one policeman, in Baghdad's southern Doura district, an Interior Ministry source said.
05/03/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds civilian in central Baghdad
A roadside bomb wounded one civilian when it exploded in central Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb kills municipality employee in eastern Baghdad[/B]
A sticky bomb attached to the car of a Baghdad municipality female employee killed her when it went off in eastern Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Gunmen kill civilian in western Mosul
Gunmen using silenced weapons killed a civilian in front of his house late on Monday in western Mosul, police said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Gunmen kill 2 civilians in northwestern Baghdad
Gunmen on a speeding motorcycle using silenced weapons killed two civilians late on Monday in Baghdad's northwestern Hurriya District, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/02/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb wounds four people in Hilla
A sticky bomb attached to a car in a parking lot exploded, wounding four people, in the city of Hilla, 100 km (62 miles) south of Baghdad, said Major-General Fadhil Razaq, the chief of police in Babil province.

05/02/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb kills 3 people in Sadr City district
A roadside bomb exploded near a police station, killing three civilians and wounding 14, in Baghdad's northeastern Sadr City district, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/02/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 3 people in central Baghdad
BAGHDAD - A roadside bomb went off near a cafe and wounded three people in Baghdad's central Abu Nawas Street, an Interior Ministry source said.


^^^ Just in the last two days.

Certainly, some Iraqis are far better off now that Saddam is gone. Many, however, are not.

My question is, was the budget breaking and heart breaking cost to us in national treasure and the lives of our young men and women even remotely worth the result?

By many accounts, Iran seems to be the big winner here. Is THIS what we wanted?

 

[chucky2]

Yes, this is what we wanted.

The Iraqi's are free to elect representatives that will enact policies that in theory will support the electorates will.

And, if they don't, the electorate can have issue with those representatives.

What they won't have is a brutal dictator that we helped into power randomly killing, raping, and terrorizing the populace because he, his sons, and their regime think it's fun.

Instead, it's their own neighbors.

So finally, they'll have to look into the mirror: No longer will it be the Hated West (that delusion only works for so long).

That is the point of going into Iraq.

Chuck

 

[GuitarDaddy]

No, Iraq was a terrible mistake, we should have never been there. All we did is spend billions of dollars and thousands of lost lives creating a haven for terrorist and handing power and influence to Iran on a silver platter.

 

[Jaskalas]

Certainly, some Iraqis are far better off now that Saddam is gone. Many, however, are not.

My question is, was the budget breaking and heart breaking cost to us in national treasure and the lives of our young men and women even remotely worth the result?

By many accounts, Iran seems to be the big winner here. Is THIS what we wanted?

First, 10% of our deficit is not a budget breaker.

Second it was a terrible mistake and not worth the price.

Iran IS the winner. Bush taking out Saddam empowered Iran.

 

[MotF Bane]

My question is, was the budget breaking and heart breaking cost to us in national treasure and the lives of our young men and women even remotely worth the result?

That should never have been a question. :thumbsdown:

 

[wuliheron]

Anyone who thinks we went there to free the poor Iraqi people and give them a better life watches too many soap operas and reality tv. We went to kick Saddam's ass, make money for the wealthy at tax payer expense, and set up a military base next to Iran.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Love the use of certain key terms. 'Some' are better, 'Many' are not. No bias in the choice of those words I am sure. While your post is certainly polished up with all the talking points and keywords you provide no substance whatsoever.

What is YOUR opinion on if it was all worth it? What would YOU be doing differently? Your post essentially came down to saying something like 'disease is bad'.. well, no shit..

Obama doesn't seem very interested in changing things at this point. Does he have some more insight on these things now that he isn't just a candidate? Or is he just as dumb as GWB? Or is he selling out to corporations/big oil/Haliburton/BP take your pick?

There really is no way to say if it was worth it or not because we have no way of knowing what the alternative was. If Bush didn't go into Iraq what would have been the results? We can only speculate. If by going into Iraq we prevented an attack which would have killed thousands of Americans, then yes, I guess it was worth it. If Saddam was just misunderstood and would have done nothing to harm us, then I guess it wasn't worth it.

Ultimately all we can do is decide on what is the right thing to do going forward. As of this point, our leadership has decided that is stay the course.

 

[JSt0rm]

Poor werepossum.

You might want to Goggle Iraq and Afghanistan if Republicans are not butch enough for you . . .

One thing of which Democrats never tire is telling us how much better things were when all the media spoke with one voice.

Real men get bogged down in intractable wars, 2 of them make you super man. :hmm:

Hmm, one intractable war winding down this year and one winding down next year - INCLUDING time spent nation building and providing security. Sounds pretty tractable to me. Evidently "intractable" is simply your automatic term for any war not properly started (i.e. by a Democrat.)

 

[Atreus21]

Mission Accomplished?

In Iraq, assassinations are a nightly event.

05/03/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb wounds Iraq's grain board director in southeastern Baghdad
A sticky bomb attached to a vehicle carrying Iraq's grain board director, Hassan Ibrahim, wounded him and a passer-by and killed his driver when it went off in southeastern Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 3 people in southern Baghdad
A roadside bomb went off and wounded three people, including one policeman, in Baghdad's southern Doura district, an Interior Ministry source said.
05/03/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds civilian in central Baghdad
A roadside bomb wounded one civilian when it exploded in central Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb kills municipality employee in eastern Baghdad[/B]
A sticky bomb attached to the car of a Baghdad municipality female employee killed her when it went off in eastern Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Gunmen kill civilian in western Mosul
Gunmen using silenced weapons killed a civilian in front of his house late on Monday in western Mosul, police said.

05/03/11 Reuters: Gunmen kill 2 civilians in northwestern Baghdad
Gunmen on a speeding motorcycle using silenced weapons killed two civilians late on Monday in Baghdad's northwestern Hurriya District, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/02/11 Reuters: Sticky bomb wounds four people in Hilla
A sticky bomb attached to a car in a parking lot exploded, wounding four people, in the city of Hilla, 100 km (62 miles) south of Baghdad, said Major-General Fadhil Razaq, the chief of police in Babil province.

05/02/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb kills 3 people in Sadr City district
A roadside bomb exploded near a police station, killing three civilians and wounding 14, in Baghdad's northeastern Sadr City district, an Interior Ministry source said.

05/02/11 Reuters: Roadside bomb wounds 3 people in central Baghdad
BAGHDAD - A roadside bomb went off near a cafe and wounded three people in Baghdad's central Abu Nawas Street, an Interior Ministry source said.


^^^ Just in the last two days.

Certainly, some Iraqis are far better off now that Saddam is gone. Many, however, are not.

My question is, was the budget breaking and heart breaking cost to us in national treasure and the lives of our young men and women even remotely worth the result?

By many accounts, Iran seems to be the big winner here. Is THIS what we wanted?

Did we expect a nation to emerge from repressive dictatorship and upheaval within ten years of its sudden liberation?

The jury is out on Iraq. It will take decades to determine if we succeeded there.

Was it worth it? To the extent that removing a dictatorship in favor of a democracy is a good thing, yes. To the extent that it provided a staging ground for the war on terror, I don't know. That could've been done in Afghanistan.

 

[JSt0rm]

Did we expect a nation to emerge from repressive dictatorship and upheaval within ten years of its sudden liberation?

The jury is out on Iraq. It will take decades to determine if we succeeded there.

Was it worth it? To the extent that removing a dictatorship in favor of a democracy is a good thing, yes. To the extent that it provided a staging ground for the war on terror, I don't know. That could've been done in Afghanistan.

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld tells hundreds of US military personnel gathered at the US Aviano airbase in northern Italy that Washington does not expect a possible war with Iraq to last long and is not planning to mobilise all its reservists. He says a war with Iraq, if it happens, would last "six days, maybe six weeks" but certainly less than six months. (Rumsfeld, press briefing, US airbase in Aviano, Italy, February 7, 2003)
"It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could be six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."
- Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 2/7/03
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2738089.stm)
"The idea that it's going to be a long, long, long battle of some kind I think is belied by the fact of what happened in 1990. Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."- Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 11/15/02
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/20/iraq-retrospective-read-_n_92575.html)




-------------

Now stfu.

 

[Atreus21]

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld tells hundreds of US military personnel gathered at the US Aviano airbase in northern Italy that Washington does not expect a possible war with Iraq to last long and is not planning to mobilise all its reservists. He says a war with Iraq, if it happens, would last "six days, maybe six weeks" but certainly less than six months. (Rumsfeld, press briefing, US airbase in Aviano, Italy, February 7, 2003)
"It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could be six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."
- Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 2/7/03
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2738089.stm)
"The idea that it's going to be a long, long, long battle of some kind I think is belied by the fact of what happened in 1990. Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."- Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 11/15/02
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/20/iraq-retrospective-read-_n_92575.html)




-------------

Now stfu.

Rumsfeld was a moronic SoD.

 

[Zebo]

I bring this up every so often too and gets dismissed as growing pains. I have no doubt second we leave and stop acting as a referee bouncer all hell will break loose for Sunni will never live under people they consider dogs and infidels (Shi'a) - this was not called the "greatest strategic disaster" in our history for nuthin.

Another thing there is no "power sharing" in the region. You're either victors or vanquished. We see this in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria etc where sec in power excludes all others and rest lives in poverty and destitution. This makes for perpetual trouble.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Sadly, still has far more promise of becoming a functional state than Afghanistan ever will.

The three main groups in Iraq cannot get along, partitioning it between the Kurds, Sunnis and Shia would be the only way to solve it, it is what the British should have done. But, that also runs the risk of sections of bordering countries revolting wishing to join their people's new homeland.

 

[JSt0rm]

Did we expect a nation to emerge from repressive dictatorship and upheaval within ten years of its sudden liberation?

Rumsfeld was a moronic SoD.

Why would you post the sentence I quoted again? Rumsfeld is a moron, everyone else expected to be in iraq for a decade? No thats fucking bullshit.

And here we are almost 11 years on and idiots like werpossum above think its manly to go to war and is proud of the republicans for going. And YOU in total denial about how long we thought we were going to be there? I mean as a populace how fucking stupid can we be?

 

[Atreus21]

Why would you post the sentence I quoted again? Rumsfeld is a moron, everyone else expected to be in iraq for a decade? No thats fucking bullshit.

And here we are almost 11 years on and idiots like werpossum above think its manly to go to war and is proud of the republicans for going. And YOU in total denial about how long we thought we were going to be there? I mean as a populace how fucking stupid can we be?

We could be a lot stupider.

I don't care how long we thought we would be there, or with what expectations. You don't go topple a repressive dictatorship and install democracy and expect things to just go peachy. This is not a modern 1st world country. You can't create a culture conducive to democracy overnight. It's going to take decades for such a culture to develop, if it develops at all.

But if it develops, in the long term Iraq and her citizens will be better for it.

 

[JSt0rm]

We could be a lot stupider.

I don't care how long we thought we would be there, or with what expectations.

Clearly.

You are a neocon. I've seen pictures of you. You wouldn't last 5 minutes in the wrong neighborhood. You shouldnt play tough with other peoples lives.

Its not our business to change peoples "culture". When they want to leave the dark ages they will.

 

[Zebo]

Sadly, still has far more promise of becoming a functional state than Afghanistan ever will.

The three main groups in Iraq cannot get along, partitioning it between the Kurds, Sunnis and Shia would be the only way to solve it, it is what the British should have done. But, that also runs the risk of sections of bordering countries revolting wishing to join their people's new homeland.

While most areas and neighborhoods are ethnically/religiously cleansed already Partitioning isnt on the table because Iraqs wealth in located in Kurdish region and population is against that. Almost no oil in Sunni region and our allies like sunni kuwait and sunni Saudi are totally against excluding their own from wealth. The Arab league is against it too. Iran is aginst it basically everyone is against it but minority and powerless Kurds.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Certainly, some Iraqis are far better off now that Saddam is gone. Many, however, are not.

My question is, was the budget breaking and heart breaking cost to us in national treasure and the lives of our young men and women even remotely worth the result?

By many accounts, Iran seems to be the big winner here. Is THIS what we wanted?

1. No
2. No

I'm a moderate conservative, I didn't support going to war in Iraq and feel it was a waste of servicemen and servicewomen lives, money, and time.

 

[zinfamous]

This is all shitty stuff, of course, but so was the French Revolution.

so was the American revolution.

I would argue that Iraq turning over, as it "may be," is still cleaner than what went on in France.

Turning over a nation is not an easy, or clean, process.

Were we correct to go and force this sort of thing? FUCK NO.

but yes, Iraq has the potential to work. Afghanistan never will work. It's been 2k years, and Afghanistan has never worked. Why should we assume it will be any different today?

 

[Zebo]

Agree. Should have been done on the down low like killing of Osama was, not making a big production out of it and certainly not Iraq and definitly not trying to rebuild these people in our image out of barrel of a gun with sugar on top.

 

[Steeplerot]

Est 1 million iraqis are free now thanks to republicans totally screwing up iraq from the initial invasion on. And by free I don't mean to play xbox and look at pr0n.

 

[drebo]

The "war" serves one purpose and one purpose only: to repress our people back home. It's a cause under which our government can expand and seize our rights, both of which they've done. It used to be the War on Drugs that was the scapegoat, but people stopped caring about that. Now it's a war on terror.

These wars will never end. The government won't let them. That is why we are nationbuilding in places that are categorically opposed to our way of life. That is why we are committing aggression against yet more states in this area. That is why we are funding the very people we are fighting. The war cannot end. If it does, the government can no longer use it as justification for expansion and for taking our freedoms.

It's 1984...only 27 years late.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I bring this up every so often too and gets dismissed as growing pains. I have no doubt second we leave and stop acting as a referee bouncer all hell will break loose for Sunni will never live under people they consider dogs and infidels (Shi'a) - this was not called the "greatest strategic disaster" in our history for nuthin.

Another thing there is no "power sharing" in the region. You're either victors or vanquished. We see this in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria etc where sec in power excludes all others and rest lives in poverty and destitution. This makes for perpetual trouble.

Yup. I'm sure the militia groups have been lying low, just itching for the Americans to hurry up and leave. I won't be at all surprised if a three way civil war breaks out between Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds. Iraq probably needs to be split into three separate countries with the different ethnicities separated from one another. But that isn't very politically correct or muticultural, so all hell will break loose.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Est 1 million iraqis are free now thanks to republicans totally screwing up iraq from the initial invasion on. And by free I don't mean to play xbox and look at pr0n.

You mean, "free" from their earthly bounds?

 

[sandorski]

"Freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things," Rumsfeld said. "They're also free to live their lives and do wonderful things. And that's what's going to happen here."

Yup. Well said, if you're a Moron.