/me smacks paper MCSEs.

[Windogg]

I love incidents that make my job more secure. I am meeting with several people that are here suppose to help support my office after the implementation of the oursourced IT program. I leave them be to load some training software on a PC. After a few minutes nothing appeared to be going on so I peeked in. The company represenative was a bit frustrated as a few of the new support people are futzing around obvious lost at what to do. I noticed they are installing a program where the name ended in "9X".

I told them that the system is running Windows 2000 Professional and a few of them told me they figured out that much. I suggested they installed the program that ended in "NT." I got lots of blank looks and the response, "But it's not a Windows NT system."

I responsed, "Windows 2000 is built on the NT kernel and not the 9x kernel so the NT installation should work." More blank and worried looks.

They clicked on it and the software fired right up. I joked, "Maybe we should get some MCSEs in." They all look amazed that it worked.

I got a weird look from the corporate rep who said, "Uhhh... they are all MCSEs"

DOH!!!!!!!!

 

[fdiskboy]

Paper MCSE's piss me off.

 

[MajesticMoose]

um, I even know that, and i'm a dumbass. What the hell do they teach you in those coourses?

m00se

 

[warcleric]

Windogg: I hear you, on the flipside, I am now going back to get my MCSE because of the number of employers looking for it as proof that you know what you are doing. I was actually turned down from a job because of not having it. I would think 10+ years of real experience would be better evidence of my ability, but it is obviously not for the non-technical HR people who do the hiring. I have my CNE, CCNA, and MCSE on NT4, but these were all taken after already doing the jobs for many years. They didnt teach me anything or make me any smarter, they were just pieces of paper that were supposed to prove to other people that I knew what I was doing. Of course, anyone in a high enough level IT position knows that anyone who puts MCSE after their name usually doesnt know jack. If you have to rely on a cert to prove yourself then your ability is obviously lacking. I am tired of getting stuck with employees who get hired because of their cert and then having to teach them absolutly everything they should have already known when they got the job. It is a shame that they dont allow us technical people any input into the hiring process here, but it is just another reason I have job interviews next month.

 

[Commish]

There should be a 2 year experience prerequisite just to take any of the tests. That is pathetic Windogg, you should have pimp slapped 'em.

 

[DefRef]

Can't have a two-year prereq for Win2K cuz it's only been out a year. Bit of a problem there.

In addition to the certs, some gigs want college degrees to boot. Booo!

 

[warcleric]

A college degree can prove that you have the incentive and ability to learn though. An MCSE that you got through a 2 week bootcamp takes no dedication, or ability other than memorization.

 

[fdiskboy]

<< . Of course, anyone in a high enough level IT position knows that anyone who puts MCSE after their name usually doesnt know jack >>



Now warcleric, I agreed with pretty much everything you said. Until you got to this point. You sound like a very intelligent person, but this is an extremely ignorant thing to say. I put MCSE after my name, why? Because I earned it. Just like I earned my CPA certificate and my History degree. I know a lot more than most Jacks.

Now, if you had said anyone that expects those four little letters to prove that they know something usually doesn't know jack, I'd have agreed with you.

Blanket statements suck!

(BTW, I didn't go to some two week boot camp or download a bunch of braindumps, I worked with the products, so it made sense for me to get certified, especially as my employer paid for the tests)

 

[warcleric]

fdiskboy: the word usually disqualifies it as a blanket statement. I also dont trust Dr's who insist people call them Dr so and so.....you are falling back on a degree or certification, I prefer to let people be a judge of me by my actions and seen ability, not by some title. The more you have to reinforce and impose that title upon others, the less confident you are of your abilities. You sound alot like me, in fact me getting certified at all was mostly a fluke. I had been working with these products for many years and on a whim took a practice exam for one of them. I aced it so I said hell that was easy and went and took the tests with no prep. You may be misunderstanding me...the people I am mostly talking about are the ones who flaunt their certs everywhere, email sigs, business cards, personalized license plates, lapel pins, hell I have even seen people who sign their name with it now....these are the people who usually have no ability.

 

[Spamela]

experience means more than an MCSE (although experience + an M.S. in computer science means even more).

 

[Windogg]

warcleric, yes your are right. The unfortunate part is that many HR people only use a piece of paper as a yard stick. Don't get me wrong, a fully qualified person should get a cert if possible. Like you have stated, true qualified people never need to attach a &quot;Dr&quot; or &quot;MCSE&quot; to their names since their actions speak for themselves. A great Novell guy that has taught me alot once told me, &quot;A person who fancies themselves a &quot;guru&quot; is usually a guru of nothing.&quot; So true.

Windogg

 

It all boils down to, &quot;stupid is as stupid does&quot;.

 

[kranky]

Our network guy (who has no certifications) is a wizard. He and I share a disdain for paper MCSEs. To me a paper MCSE is another term for &quot;I've been brainwashed by Microsoft&quot;, since a paper MCSE can only attack something the MS way without any real-world experience to fall back on.

If he's in our department to look at something, he likes to wave his hands in the air and say &quot;I summon the gods of certification....&quot;, then wait a second or two and say &quot;hmmmm...didn't work&quot;. That's how we think paper MCSEs try to fix things.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Heh, try this one for a saying:

If someone truely knows everything, then why don't they win the lotto every week?


There is a place called brainbench where you can take tests to become certified in various fields. I used my multiple choice test skills to get certified in Linux Administration yet I'm not qualified to use the OS muchless administer it

 

[DefRef]

Requiring a MCSE is little more than CYA to some HR types. If the guys washes out, they can point and say, &quot;He/She/It had a MCSE.&quot;

I took the practice A+ exams at ExamCram and got 71% and 77% with just OTJ and home building experience. When I can consistantly hit the 90s, I may go for the real deal w/o studying.

 

[Deicide]

I dislike paper MCSE's, for the fact that they cause you guys to make negative blanket statements about everybody who is going for/has an MCSE. I've been studying for my cert for a couple years. I'm taking the time to work with the OS's to get a good understanding of what they do. As of today I have 4 tests out of 7 passed (net essentials, NT workstation, Server, Server in the Ent). Now I'm studying for the win2k upgrade exam, and a couple electives. Anyone who can finish seven of these tests in a couple weeks must have really good retention skills, heh.
The reason I'm going for the cert is to help make interviewers take me seriously; they see a 17 year old kid and automatically assume that he doesn't know jack, even if its for some entry level tech support job. I agree though, people who put MCSE after their name are pretty fruity. I would be embarrased for anyone that wore their little MCP lapel pin around the office.

 

[tim0thy]

there are about 350,000 MCSEs in the world. there are about 12000 MCSE+Is in the world. i'm just glad i'm in the latter group.

i do mind that people have this opinion about MCSEs not knowing anything, and yes, i put MCSE+I after my name because i have EARNED it. in the work world practical experience is paramount and king. certifications just ensure that you know at least the very basics of what you are certified in (unless you don't brush up and/or use the technology).

even after 6 months of passing my exam, i still open the book to review every so often since i don't always work with the technology that i am certified in.