McLaren stripped of all 2007 constructors points!

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Jun 14, 2003
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Originally posted by: Midnight Rambler
For those unaware, F1 is the most widely-watched spectator sport in the world, so this has huge ramifications (potentially, as no doubt McLaren will appeal).

FACT is, McLaren never had a fair chance in this so-called "court". For starters, Ferrari has thrice as many reps on the council as any other motorsport team. The council also includes a former Ferrari CEO. And when people like Jackie Stewart, Stirling Moss, et al, who actually know what goes on behind the scenes of the circus, come out in defense of McLaren by declaring that Ferrari has always received favoritism from the FIA and WMSC (ie. more $'s, looking the other way when they cheat, etc.), you know that McLaren did not get a fair shake. Ron Dennis may be a control freak but he is the last of the true motorsporting "gentlemen" in F1 and nearly the entire paddock consider him to be of the highest integrity. Obviously Jean Todt and Max Mosley think otherwise, but they are quite lonely in their opinion, and both have very well-documented, long-running personal vendettas against Ron Dennis.

All the politics aside, anyone who thinks McLaren's car is winning/benefiting from this so-called leak of Ferrari tech info is pretty clueless. Mike Coughlan testified under oath that he received the data from Nigel Stepney in late March of 2007, and by then the season was underway, with the cars' design having been completed most likely in October of 2006 at the latest. Lead time to construction (from design) in F1 is insanely short compared to any other industry I know of but it still takes time to produce tooling, construct the componentry, assemble the cars, hit the windtunnel ... only to have to pass crash/safety testing before you can even hit the test track for the first time. Then you need time for tweaking once you start getting test data. In other words, if next year's car design isn't done by the end of the current season, you're waaaaaay behind the competition already. On top of all that, the word is that this technical info mostly involves only setup info, so does the punishment really fit the crime ? The FIA will release its entire findings today, so we MAY find there is more that hasn't come to public light. Only then would such a ruling and fine even begin to make sense.

One really has to wonder why Ferrari wasn't punished for their serious design rules infraction this year ? Specifically for their "moving floor" design which the FIA subsequently declared illegal AFTER Ferrari had already won race(s) with the design in place ? Ferrari lost no points, incurred no fines. Just like last year when they were busted for aero elements that flexed in violation of the rules. Or a couple years before that when their rear diffuser was ruled in violation. In each instance they merely were allowed to rework their car. I can see them maybe getting off for the flexing elements, as BMW was supposedly doing some devious things as well and had to make similar mods to their car, but that's the exception.

One also has to wonder why the Ferrari/Toyota espionage case of a few years ago did not reach the same level as this "inquisition". In this instance, stolen technology was ACTUALLY FOUND ON THE CARS involved. End result was the same, no penalties for Ferrari (or Toyota).

In the end it's quite apparent that Ferrari receives unprecedented favoritism in F1, though no doubt assisted by Mosley's grudge(s) against Dennis. Further, if they were winning, this matter wouldn't even have made a headline. I think Enzo must be rolling in his grave right now as this "scandal", plus the past decade of win-at-all-costs and poor sportsmanship with the "Cheatmacher" at the drivers helm has made Ferrari in to nothing more than a house of whingers and whiners. Beyond the blind tifosi, Ferrari has lost a HUGE amount of respect in the motorsports world.

Still, I'll be rooting for Kimi to put the ungrateful young punk (aka Lewis Hamilton) in his place come race day ... :D


couldnt have said it better.

i like to see ferrari win, but their methods of doing so are becoming so ruthless that its really not sporting anymore. Micheal Schumachers cheating alter ego seems to have rubbed off some what (94 he took hill and himself out to win the championship, he tried again to do it to jaques in 97,) i mean the mans a driving god, and an utter genius but his "win at all costs" mentality shadows what is otherwise the most remarkable driving carreer in F1.

i still remeber that race where Damon Hill actually won, followed closely by Schumacher. Hill was loving the win until it emerged schumacher had been stuck completely in 5th gear for the majority of the race. the look on damons face was priceless.

Lewis is a great driver, he is arrogant, but why not? all racing drivers are, you have to be an arrogant fuck to even be in the sport, but he does come across as being groomed, his press conferences come across like a puppet show....carefully scripted by the Mclaren PR team.

the info they supposedly received tho, was so late (in terms of this seasons car development) that it cant of possibly had any bearing on the cars performance if used.

ferrari just cant take losing, ... i know no sportsman can take coming second, its hard....but most have the decency and integrity to be a gentleman about it and simply go back and up their game instead of trying to accuse others of cheating etc
 

Midnight Rambler

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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OMG, it just keeps getting wilder !!!

Highly-placed rumors are now flying that it was none other than Ron Dennis himself who alerted the FIA about the new "evidence" (emails). Word is that Ron and Alonso had an argument about his contract (again ...), and Alonso threatened that he had info that the FIA might be interested in. Rather than let Alonso use this as a bargaining chip to find his way out of McLaren, Ron told the FIA first, hoping it would be seen as a goodwill gesture and further proof that McLaren were being upfront and honest about the whole affair. Can you say backfire ?

Sure wish Kimi and JPM were still at McLaren. They were both stubborn and a bit flighty at times but I highly doubt they would have pulled the crap that Alonso and Hamilton have. Hamilton is a thankless prima donna (already) and now it appears that Alonso has no sporting morals whatsoever. Whether or not he and Pedro De la Rosa gained any insight from Coughlan and the email(s), he should have reported this to his team and the FIA right away when it happened. Ron should fire the whole lot of them, hire Nico Rosberg and perhaps give Paffet his chance.

Spa P1 is only a couple hours away and I'm taking a day's VAC just so I can stay glued to the coverage !


P.S. - Totally agree with you Otis about Scummaker. Initially awed by his talent (at Spa in a Jordan no less !), his antics during the entire '94 season soured me forever. HUGE talent but a total zero when it came to sportsmanship. His infamous "cut across" starting maneuver irked me perhaps more than anything else, and should have been banned for safety reasons at the minimum, although taking Damon out and "parking" at Monaco rank right up there too.
 

GoatMonkey

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
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Originally posted by: Midnight Rambler

Sure wish Kimi and JPM were still at McLaren. They were both stubborn and a bit flighty at times but I highly doubt they would have pulled the crap that Alonso and Hamilton have. Hamilton is a thankless prima donna (already) and now it appears that Alonso has no sporting morals whatsoever.

Hamilton was justified in his comments about his teammate holding him up. There was no reason for Alonso to hold him up in the pits like that. However, I think it should have been up to the team to handle any punishment. A race penalty should not be a punishment for a teams internal squabble.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
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Politics in open wheeled racing?! *GASP*

*looks back on diesels, turbines, AWD, pushrods, and CART/IRL at Indy*
 

pravi333

Senior member
May 25, 2005
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all from f1.com

"A number of McLaren employees - including Pedro de la Rosa and Fernando Alonso - knew about the team?s unauthorised possession of confidential Ferrari information, and some intended to use that information in the team?s own testing.

That was among the findings of the FIA?s World Motor Sport Council, which published its full judgement on Friday afternoon following its decision to strip McLaren of their 2007 constructors' points and fine the team $100 million.

The findings contradict previous claims from McLaren that the Ferrari data had not spread beyond suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan, who allegedly received it from former Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney.

In its judgement, the Council cites evidence of ongoing communications between Coughlan and Stepney, as well as between Coughlan and McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa, who the FIA claim ?requested and received secret Ferrari information from a source which he knew to be illegitimate? and shared that information with world champion Fernando Alonso.

Emails between Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso formed part of the new evidence that prompted Thursday?s second hearing into the affair. July?s original hearing had found McLaren in breach of the International Sporting Code, but had not sanctioned the team due to lack of evidence.

The emails covered topics such as the weight distribution and braking system of Ferrari?s car, a flexible rear wing design and a gas used by the Italian team to inflate its tyres. They also suggested that Stepney had fed Coughlan real-time information on Ferrari?s pit stop strategy in this year?s Australian Grand Prix.

According to the Council, ?The e-mails show unequivocally that both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Coughlan; that both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Stepney.?. In submitting their evidence, de la Rosa and Alonso were granted immunity from any personal sanctions.

The other new evidence related to communications between Coughlan and Stepney, which, according to reports from the Italian police, was of a far greater level than the Council had previously thought, leading it to conclude that Coughlan ?was in receipt of a flow of confidential Ferrari information from Stepney.?

According to the Council, the new evidence makes clear that:

- Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated and was receiving information in a systematic manner over a period of months;
- the information has been disseminated, at least to some degree (e.g. to Mr. de la Rosa and Mr. Alonso), within the McLaren team;
- the information being disseminated within the McLaren team included not only highly sensitive technical information but also secret information regarding Ferrari?s sporting strategy;
- Mr de la Rosa, in the performance of his functions at McLaren, requested and received secret Ferrari information from a source which he knew to be illegitimate and expressly stated that the purpose of his request was to run tests in the simulator;
- the secret information in question was shared with Mr. Alonso;
- there was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing. If this was not in fact carried into effect it was only because there were technical reasons not to do so;
- Coughlan?s role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties.

The Council concluded that ?some degree of sporting advantage was obtained, though it may forever be impossible to quantify that advantage in concrete terms.?
 

andylawcc

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
18,183
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"if you are not cheating, you are not trying hard enough" - Comments on Pat videotapping incident.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
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Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
couldnt have said it better.

i like to see ferrari win, but their methods of doing so are becoming so ruthless that its really not sporting anymore. Micheal Schumachers cheating alter ego seems to have rubbed off some what (94 he took hill and himself out to win the championship, he tried again to do it to jaques in 97,) i mean the mans a driving god, and an utter genius but his "win at all costs" mentality shadows what is otherwise the most remarkable driving carreer in F1.

i still remeber that race where Damon Hill actually won, followed closely by Schumacher. Hill was loving the win until it emerged schumacher had been stuck completely in 5th gear for the majority of the race. the look on damons face was priceless.

Lewis is a great driver, he is arrogant, but why not? all racing drivers are, you have to be an arrogant fuck to even be in the sport, but he does come across as being groomed, his press conferences come across like a puppet show....carefully scripted by the Mclaren PR team.

the info they supposedly received tho, was so late (in terms of this seasons car development) that it cant of possibly had any bearing on the cars performance if used.

ferrari just cant take losing, ... i know no sportsman can take coming second, its hard....but most have the decency and integrity to be a gentleman about it and simply go back and up their game instead of trying to accuse others of cheating etc
I wonder what people like you now think, especially given that the information received included things like strategy, which always has a bearing on the race, even if it's received during it!
 

dandruff

Golden Member
Jan 28, 2000
1,407
6
81
after reading those emails .. McLaren fans need to find different reasons now ... all the previous ones dont work anymore ...

the latest Macca excuse fans are spouting is : Everybody does it"

before it was: they didnt get any data
they never used it
there is no evidence
ron knew nothing (yup, after 300 email exchanges - everyone knew except RD in a team that RD tightly controls)

and this is what we know ... they ahd Ferrari weight distribution to 2 decimal places .. they had info on which lap kimi is going to pit ..

PDLR trying info on the simulator ... yeah right
 

MrMajestyk

Member
Apr 8, 2003
185
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Ah, Formula [n]One. That's the motorsport where they race on tracks where no one can overtake. :thumbsdown:
 

alexruiz

Platinum Member
Sep 21, 2001
2,836
556
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Crazy, but I think there is still more left to be uncover... I think Ron Dennis is lying that he didn't know anything... he suddenly became so interested about the car's floor rigidity and even asked the FIA to clarify the requirements after Melbourne.... ;)
I think the punishment is fair, but the fine is excessive.

MidnightRambler, I disagree that formula 1 racing is the most watched spectator sport in the world, that honor goes to the FIFA (the real football)... but the FIA surely takes second place no contest, and formula 1 is easily the most expensive sport on earth.
 

GoatMonkey

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,253
0
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Originally posted by: MrMajestyk
Ah, Formula [n]One. That's the motorsport where they race on tracks where no one can overtake. :thumbsdown:

It's true that it happens fairly often that the guy on the pole also wins the race, but no passing ever is not true. It does happen much less often than those guys that drive in a circle though.

Here is one from last weekend a ballsy pass for second place. Starts at around 20 seconds into this video clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2fWxHfmuug

 

Midnight Rambler

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,200
0
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MidnightRambler, I disagree that formula 1 racing is the most watched spectator sport in the world, that honor goes to the FIFA (the real football)... but the FIA surely takes second place no contest, and formula 1 is easily the most expensive sport on earth.
I am aware of football's popularity as well, but ITV and others have shown the numbers many times that F1 outdraws even football, even during WC years. I think the expansion of F1 in to Asia has especially helped swell their numbers the last few years.

As for the release of the FIA's findings today, it appears my earlier rumors source re: Dennis himself reporting the emails to the FIA, was spot on. Same source also says Dennis in no way was involved, and had no knowledge until it all broke apart during the Hungarian GP. Despite the obvious involvement of Alonso, De la Rosa, Coughlan, and some others, I truly believe Dennis was not a part of this. No way a guy can know the activities of 1000+ employees down to the last detail. On top of that, for him to show the emotions he has during this whole affair, speaks a lot. That might sound silly to some but this is a guy known for his integrity, uprightness, steeliness, etc., I doubt the guy even cried at his mum's funeral ... so to see him in tears defending his team's honor speaks volumes. And to have people like Moss and Stewart STILL speaking out in defense of Ron further lends to his credibility.

Bottomline, McLaren have been caught stealing, but mostly setup and stratgey info. The only thing design-related they had was the brake system concept, and clearly they did not use that or anything else in their car's design for 2007 (again, the lead time would prevent this). Is this the worst case in F1 history ? Most are saying otherwise, and several of the Ferrari transgressions over the past few years have been just as bad from a standpoint of whether or not they got a competitive advantage. And yes, everybody does do it ! Having personally been in the F1 paddock several times, I have seen it firsthand myself, and if I can see it going on, then you know it's rampant. LCD's which require special lenses to view, microwave comm systems, I could go on and on with the security tactics every team (well, maybe not Spyker and STR) uses to guard against spying. No team would go to those extents if "spying" in F1 wasn't rampant. One time even, in 2005, I was trying to take some pics of McLaren's new diffuser system but couldn't get close enough due to all the Ferrari, Renault, and Toyota people trying to take the same pics. I think McLaren should be punished for their lack of oversight over their employees, but the punishment they got is unfair compared to other recent sanctions (or lack thereof). In fact, I think Alonso and De la Rosa should have borne the bulk of the punishment, along with Coughlan and Stepney.

Here's a link to the full FIA report for anybody interested ... link

Finally, with regard to Hamilton, he is the one who started the tiff with Alonso for not following the team's order to let him pass. McLaren had been equally sharing the fuel burn-off strategy amongst its drivers, alternating who got the extra lap from race to race. Alonso had complied each time it was asked of him, and in Hungary it was Alonso's turn and Hamilton disobeyed, end of story. While I am not an Alonso fan, I do not blame him for doing what he did, Hamilton deserved it. Especially considering that Hamilton had been benefitting all year by having Alonso's setups given to him, without which he would have been totally lost and not in the Championship running. You saw what happened in Monza, and that was because Alonso is no longer being forced to give his setups to Hamilton, effective with that race.

This is only going to get juicier as more info, esp. with regard to Alonso's involvement, will come to light in the next couple of weeks. When it's over, Renault may be the only team who would even want him. And I can see Ron making him sit for the next two years rather than letting him out of his contract. While he would still have to be paid, it would kill Alonso to not be able to drive for a Championship, and I think that would be fitting punishment for him.
 

alexruiz

Platinum Member
Sep 21, 2001
2,836
556
126
Originally posted by: Midnight Rambler
MidnightRambler, I disagree that formula 1 racing is the most watched spectator sport in the world, that honor goes to the FIFA (the real football)... but the FIA surely takes second place no contest, and formula 1 is easily the most expensive sport on earth.
I am aware of football's popularity as well, but ITV and others have shown the numbers many times that F1 outdraws even football, even during WC years. I think the expansion of F1 in to Asia has especially helped swell their numbers the last few years.

As for the release of the FIA's findings today, it appears my earlier rumors source re: Dennis himself reporting the emails to the FIA, was spot on. Same source also says Dennis in no way was involved, and had no knowledge until it all broke apart during the Hungarian GP. Despite the obvious involvement of Alonso, De la Rosa, Coughlan, and some others, I truly believe Dennis was not a part of this. No way a guy can know the activities of 1000+ employees down to the last detail. On top of that, for him to show the emotions he has during this whole affair, speaks a lot. That might sound silly to some but this is a guy known for his integrity, uprightness, steeliness, etc., I doubt the guy even cried at his mum's funeral ... so to see him in tears defending his team's honor speaks volumes. And to have people like Moss and Stewart STILL speaking out in defense of Ron further lends to his credibility.

Bottomline, McLaren have been caught stealing, but mostly setup and stratgey info. The only thing design-related they had was the brake system concept, and clearly they did not use that or anything else in their car's design for 2007 (again, the lead time would prevent this). Is this the worst case in F1 history ? Most are saying otherwise, and several of the Ferrari transgressions over the past few years have been just as bad from a standpoint of whether or not they got a competitive advantage. And yes, everybody does do it ! Having personally been in the F1 paddock several times, I have seen it firsthand myself, and if I can see it going on, then you know it's rampant. LCD's which require special lenses to view, microwave comm systems, I could go on and on with the security tactics every team (well, maybe not Spyker and STR) uses to guard against spying. No team would go to those extents if "spying" in F1 wasn't rampant. One time even, in 2005, I was trying to take some pics of McLaren's new diffuser system but couldn't get close enough due to all the Ferrari, Renault, and Toyota people trying to take the same pics. I think McLaren should be punished for their lack of oversight over their employees, but the punishment they got is unfair compared to other recent sanctions (or lack thereof). In fact, I think Alonso and De la Rosa should have borne the bulk of the punishment, along with Coughlan and Stepney.

Here's a link to the full FIA report for anybody interested ... link

Finally, with regard to Hamilton, he is the one who started the tiff with Alonso for not following the team's order to let him pass. McLaren had been equally sharing the fuel burn-off strategy amongst its drivers, alternating who got the extra lap from race to race. Alonso had complied each time it was asked of him, and in Hungary it was Alonso's turn and Hamilton disobeyed, end of story. While I am not an Alonso fan, I do not blame him for doing what he did, Hamilton deserved it. Especially considering that Hamilton had been benefitting all year by having Alonso's setups given to him, without which he would have been totally lost and not in the Championship running. You saw what happened in Monza, and that was because Alonso is no longer being forced to give his setups to Hamilton, effective with that race.

This is only going to get juicier as more info, esp. with regard to Alonso's involvement, will come to light in the next couple of weeks. When it's over, Renault may be the only team who would even want him. And I can see Ron making him sit for the next two years rather than letting him out of his contract. While he would still have to be paid, it would kill Alonso to not be able to drive for a Championship, and I think that would be fitting punishment for him.

Very good insight! :up

Do you work for a team? :eek: Wow! What team? That should be the full experience!
 

Midnight Rambler

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,200
0
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No, I don't work for a team ... but I do work in advanced Safety Engineering for an automotive-related company that in turn works with and supplies all of the teams in F1, plus many other racing series as well. As such, I've had some "opportunities" over the years, to say the least. :D :D One of the few job perks I have left.

This brings to mind one of the real great shames with the unfortunate demise of the USGP at Indy ... the fact that anybody who pre-purchased a raceday ticket could participate in a pit "walkabout" during the Thursday before the race, whilst all the teams were assembling the cars, putting on initial practice setups, etc. You could talk one-on-one with team engineers and the like, get driver autographs - unheard of in F1 !!! , all kinds of neat stuff. In reality it was better than some of the experiences where I have had race day assignments or swanky sponsor passes !!!

But enough of this, I have more F1 to talk but it begs for its own thread ...