McCain-Palin Crowd-Size Estimates Not Backed by Officials

smashp

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Aug 30, 2003
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McCain-Palin Crowd-Size Estimates Not Backed by Officials

Senator John McCain has drawn some of the biggest crowds of his presidential campaign since adding Alaska Governor Sarah Palin to his ticket on Aug. 29. Now officials say they can't substantiate the figures McCain's aides are claiming.

McCain aide Kimmie Lipscomb told reporters on Sept. 10 that an outdoor rally in Fairfax City, Virginia, drew 23,000 people, attributing the crowd estimate to a fire marshal.

Fairfax City Fire Marshal Andrew Wilson said his office did not supply that number to the campaign and could not confirm it. Wilson, in an interview, said the fire department does not monitor attendance at outdoor events.

In recent days, journalists attending the rallies have been raising questions about the crowd estimates with the campaign. In a story on Sept. 11 about Palin's attraction for some Virginia women voters, Washington Post reporter Marc Fisher estimated the crowd to be 8,000, not the 23,000 cited by the campaign.

``The 23,000 figure was substantiated on the ground,'' McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds said. ``The campaign is willing to stand by the fact that it was our biggest crowd to date.''

``Since day one, this campaign has been consistent that we're not going to win or lose based on crowd size but the substance of John McCain's record,'' Bounds said.

Town Hall Meetings

Until Palin, 44, joined him on the campaign trail, McCain, 72, had limited his political events to smaller town hall meetings and rallies of a few hundred people. His Democratic rival, Barack Obama, an Illinois senator, routinely draws thousands of people to his speeches, a phenomenon McCain has tried to use to his advantage by labeling Obama, 47, a celebrity.

That changed on Aug. 30, at Palin's first big public appearance after her nomination. The McCain campaign said 10,000 people showed up at the Consol Energy Arena in Washington, Pennsylvania, home of the Washington Wild Things baseball team.

The campaign attributed that estimate, and several that followed, to U.S. Secret Service figures, based on the number of people who passed through magnetometers.

``We didn't provide any numbers to the campaign,'' said Malcolm Wiley, a spokesman for the U.S. Secret Service. Wiley said he would not ``confirm or dispute'' the numbers the McCain campaign has given to reporters.




More lies from the McCain Camp. They cant even properly source their crowd estimate sizes or get their Sources correct. I mean they have to lie to make it seem like more supporters are coming out, but looks like it isnt the case.



 

TechAZ

Golden Member
Sep 8, 2007
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Estimates are wrong, the horror! A Fire Marshall can guarantee some fireman didn't casually say "This looks like 23ish thousand people"?

 

OneOfTheseDays

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Jan 15, 2000
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I'm thinking more and more that Obama is going to blow McCain out of the water in November. This election won't even be close.

Forget poll numbers, useless. I'm going George Bush style, trusting my gut.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: TechAZ
Estimates are wrong, the horror! A Fire Marshall can guarantee some fireman didn't casually say "This looks like 23ish thousand people"?

McCain aide Kimmie Lipscomb told reporters on Sept. 10 that an outdoor rally in Fairfax City, Virginia, drew 23,000 people, attributing the crowd estimate to a fire marshal.

Of other crowds:

The campaign attributed that estimate, and several that followed, to U.S. Secret Service figures.

``We didn't provide any numbers to the campaign,'' said Malcolm Wiley, a spokesman for the U.S. Secret Service.

Looks like straight up LYING to me.







 

IamDavid

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2000
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Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
I'm thinking more and more that Obama is going to blow McCain out of the water in November. This election won't even be close.

Forget poll numbers, useless. I'm going George Bush style, trusting my gut.

OP: Who gives a #$#@?? I can think of thousands more important things to concentrate on..

OneOfTheseDays: Thought so too a couple months back. Now I'm thinking the other way. McCain's gonna win by a couple states.. The "coolness" of Obama has worn off through the midwest states. If the election wasn't such a drawn out process he would've won HUGE.
 

TechAZ

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Sep 8, 2007
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Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: TechAZ
Estimates are wrong, the horror! A Fire Marshall can guarantee some fireman didn't casually say "This looks like 23ish thousand people"?

McCain aide Kimmie Lipscomb told reporters on Sept. 10 that an outdoor rally in Fairfax City, Virginia, drew 23,000 people, attributing the crowd estimate to a fire marshal.

Of other crowds:

The campaign attributed that estimate, and several that followed, to U.S. Secret Service figures.

``We didn't provide any numbers to the campaign,'' said Malcolm Wiley, a spokesman for the U.S. Secret Service.

Looks like straight up LYING to me.

I don't know a single organization that can 100% guarantee that one of their subordinates/employees didn't say something or did say something.

Do you?
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: TechAZ
I don't know a single organization that can 100% guarantee that one of their subordinates/employees didn't say something or did say something.

Do you?
So if some junior campaign official makes a remark, it's legitimate to attribute it to Senator McCain...
 

TechAZ

Golden Member
Sep 8, 2007
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Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Originally posted by: TechAZ
I don't know a single organization that can 100% guarantee that one of their subordinates/employees didn't say something or did say something.

Do you?
So if some junior campaign official makes a remark, it's legitimate to attribute it to Senator McCain...

1+1=3

A dog is always fast. My dog has 1 leg. My dog is fast.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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As someone who lives about 20 minutes away from that Fairfax VA rally, I can vouch that a shit load of people were there. I also know a few people who went. They were initially expecting a crowed of 3000 and were going to hold it indoors. They were swarmed and had to switch to an outdoor rally on the fly.

In any case, the numbers were estimated by a fire marshal. That's good enough, and and it's not a lie by any definition.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: irishScott
As someone who lives about 20 minutes away from that Fairfax VA rally, I can vouch that a shit load of people were there. I also know a few people who went. They were initially expecting a crowed of 3000 and were going to hold it indoors. They were swarmed and had to switch to an outdoor rally on the fly.

In any case, the numbers were estimated by a fire marshal. That's good enough, and and it's not a lie by any definition.

Tucker? Is that you? The Fire Marshall says in the third paragraph of the article that he did not supply those numbers.

edit: in fact, the title of the post tells you that the official did not supply the numbers.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: TechAZ
Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Originally posted by: TechAZ
I don't know a single organization that can 100% guarantee that one of their subordinates/employees didn't say something or did say something.
Do you?
So if some junior campaign official makes a remark, it's legitimate to attribute it to Senator McCain...
1+1=3

A dog is always fast. My dog has 1 leg. My dog is fast.
You're the one who implied it's OK to attribute what some fireman may have said to the Fire Marshall. I was just extending your analogy.
 

TechAZ

Golden Member
Sep 8, 2007
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Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: irishScott
As someone who lives about 20 minutes away from that Fairfax VA rally, I can vouch that a shit load of people were there. I also know a few people who went. They were initially expecting a crowed of 3000 and were going to hold it indoors. They were swarmed and had to switch to an outdoor rally on the fly.

In any case, the numbers were estimated by a fire marshal. That's good enough, and and it's not a lie by any definition.

Tucker? Is that you? The Fire Marshall says in the third paragraph of the article that he did not supply those numbers.

"Fairfax City Fire Marshal Andrew Wilson said his office did not supply that number to the campaign and could not confirm it. Wilson, in an interview, said the fire department does not monitor attendance at outdoor events."

EDIT: Replied to fast. Could not confirm it....so who could confirm it? I already stated that a person cannot 100% guarantee that people who work with them did say or did not say anything.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: TechAZ
Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: irishScott
As someone who lives about 20 minutes away from that Fairfax VA rally, I can vouch that a shit load of people were there. I also know a few people who went. They were initially expecting a crowed of 3000 and were going to hold it indoors. They were swarmed and had to switch to an outdoor rally on the fly.

In any case, the numbers were estimated by a fire marshal. That's good enough, and and it's not a lie by any definition.

Tucker? Is that you? The Fire Marshall says in the third paragraph of the article that he did not supply those numbers.

"Fairfax City Fire Marshal Andrew Wilson said his office did not supply that number to the campaign and could not confirm it. Wilson, in an interview, said the fire department does not monitor attendance at outdoor events."

"Fairfax City Fire Marshal Andrew Wilson said his office did not supply that number to the campaign and could not confirm it. Wilson, in an interview, said the fire department does not monitor attendance at outdoor events."

Fixed for more effective bolding ;)

 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
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Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: irishScott
As someone who lives about 20 minutes away from that Fairfax VA rally, I can vouch that a shit load of people were there. I also know a few people who went. They were initially expecting a crowed of 3000 and were going to hold it indoors. They were swarmed and had to switch to an outdoor rally on the fly.

In any case, the numbers were estimated by a fire marshal. That's good enough, and and it's not a lie by any definition.

Tucker? Is that you? The Fire Marshall says in the third paragraph of the article that he did not supply those numbers.

edit: in fact, the title of the post tells you that the official did not supply the numbers.

Oh, my bad. Misread. Still, I saw the lines of cars and had to hit some of the traffic, not to mention the comments form the people who waited in a 3 hour security line. 23000 is not that much of a stretch.

In any case, it's McCain's team at fault here. Not McCain.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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A reporter who was actually there estimated 8,000--enough to draw lines of cars and cause traffic, as well as create hours-long security lines. His head spokesperson said it also, and the head spokesperson is generally considered to have the same mouth as the candidate. You can't just blame it on his team and move on.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
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Originally posted by: Farang
A reporter who was actually there estimated 8,000--enough to draw lines of cars and cause traffic, as well as create hours-long security lines. His head spokesperson said it also, and the head spokesperson is generally considered to have the same mouth as the candidate. You can't just blame it on his team and move on.

If you say so. I'm not citing anything official here. :D

If it is a lie then McCain should do something about it, maybe the head spokesperson was lied to further down the chain. We don't have all the details.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,876
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Originally posted by: TechAZ
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: TechAZ
Estimates are wrong, the horror! A Fire Marshall can guarantee some fireman didn't casually say "This looks like 23ish thousand people"?

McCain aide Kimmie Lipscomb told reporters on Sept. 10 that an outdoor rally in Fairfax City, Virginia, drew 23,000 people, attributing the crowd estimate to a fire marshal.

Of other crowds:

The campaign attributed that estimate, and several that followed, to U.S. Secret Service figures.

``We didn't provide any numbers to the campaign,'' said Malcolm Wiley, a spokesman for the U.S. Secret Service.

Looks like straight up LYING to me.

I don't know a single organization that can 100% guarantee that one of their subordinates/employees didn't say something or did say something.

Do you?

The FIRE MARSHALL is not some "subordinate/employee", and that is what Kimmie directly claimed.

And agents of the US Secret Service, I can guarantee you, strictly follow their chain of command and NONE casually comment on crowd size to anyone.



 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
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I think we need to get to the bottom of this.
We should not have to accept all these outright lies.
Have Congress investigate, maybe form a committee.
Wait, that would take a year or two or three.
What to do, what to do.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
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Asking a politician the size of a crowd he spoke to is like asking a fisherman the size of the one that got away-and just as reliable.

It's going overboard to count crowd size puffing as a lie. I'm much more concerned about lies and misrepresentations about things that matter.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Man this is getting old....doesn't anyone see that "a fire marshal" =/= "Fire Marshal Andrew Wilson said his office"? Seriously, all this nitpicking, and very often BS nitpicking really make you Obama supporters look bitter and small. And you wonder why Obama is losing support and McCain/Palin is gaining.