McCain calls for 45 new Nuclear Reactors

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: seemingly random


What could possibly be done to an animal that has been contaminated to treat it. Who consumed the meat - humans?

Nothing. It needs to be killed and burned. Otherwise the radioactive material will make its way to other parts of the food chain.

Still feel like eating some reindeer?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Hehe, he thinks the desert can't power the country but 90 sq miles of the stuff I've been suggesting is enough to run the country.

In that case we should build a huge reactor there since it is far from children and drunken Indians.

Now if people have irrational fears about something that is as logical as it can be anybody who hopes this will change is insane.

I'm not such a pessimist. Logic will prevail. It may take $8/ gallon gas, but it will prevail.

hehe, If impeccable logic has no effect, nothing will. That is why we will see the nuclear folk try to out scare the chickens by threatening them with on power or buying their way into poor neighborhoods full of drunken Indians.

Just out of curiosity, where do you live? Inside a cartoon?

You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon. The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Fern
Hi KurskKnyaz, I can't help but think you're talking about photovoltaics (silicon solar panels).

Moonie is talking about solar thermal (mirrors).

2 different things. Really different.

Maybe you guys are talking past each other?

Fern

Then why is Moonbeam talking about putting nuclear reactors on rooftops? Solar thermal isn't something to put on the roof either.

Have you seen the new CHEAP 10 by twelve ft. steel melting solar mirrors from MIT? And 150 degree sterling engines will work at home too.

Great, that will do me a lot of good. In Minnesota.

 

[QuantumPion]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon. The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

Ever hear of Palo Verde? It is the largest nuclear generating station in the country, and is located in the Arizona desert.

 

[KurskKnyaz]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon.

Where I live people don't scare chickens in some plot to buy their way into a neighborhood full of drunken Indians. What kind of threats do they make against the chickens? ...and where are the roosters during all this?

BTW what history? ...and how is history relevant to how effective modern reactors are.

The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

No shit?! ....that was sarcasm

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon.

Where I live people don't scare chickens in some plot to buy their way into a neighborhood full of drunken Indians. What kind of threats do they make against the chickens? ...and where are the roosters during all this?

BTW what history? ...and how is history relevant to how effective modern reactors are.

The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

No shit?! ....that was sarcasm

Ah, so you are the one being sarcastic.

Manuel Pino
Manuel Pino, Acoma Nation, New Mexico, USA. Currently working on a Ph.D. about the effects of uranium mining on the identity of the Indian people, i.e. loss of traditional values and an increase in suicide and alcoholism.



(Greetings in Keres)

Greetings to all the Indigenous people and European people! We are here representing our Elders from Acoma and the Laguna Pueblo. We bring our Elders' message because flying across the great Atlantic Ocean is something they cannot conceive. We are still a very traditional people. Us, like the Hopis and Acoma, claim to be the oldest continuous village in North America. As you can see by the transparency upon the screen here, we come from the southwestern part of the United States and like numerous of the groups that have preceded here today, we have been impacted by uranium development for over 40 years, and we bring the message of our Elders because they are our wisdom. They are our future and they are our past.

We brought some of our children with us to give you an idea of how they feel about this development and how it impacts them and their children and their children's children. As we speak to you here today we are very humble people. That is the traditional way of the Acoma and the Laguna. We come here to address the issues that have confronted our people. One of the hardest things for us to deal with as human beings, is to watch and sit throughout this 30 year period of development as our sacred mountain, Mount Taylor, was desecrated. They stuck the world's deepest uranium mine shaft into our sacred mountain.

I ask you, people of Salzburg, how would you feel if we came here and stuck a jack hammer into the Salzburg Cathedral? That's the way we feel about what is being done to our sacred mountain. It is our life, it is our existence, it is our future, it is our present and it is our past. We come to you here in your western culture which exemplifies the characteristics of western culture, and that is the idea that humans are superior to the world they inhabit. According to your book of Genesis, humans were made in the image of God who told them: "Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and every living thing that moves upon this earth." This is the way western culture tends to view nature as a wilderness to be conquered and tamed by human effort. The art, the literature and the folk tales of the West repeatedly show people in heroic struggles against the forces of nature.

Well, us Indian people contradict that argument. We live the opposite. We believe that Mother Earth is not to mess with. And all those species and living things from the smallest insects that crawl to the elk, to the buffalo, they are all our brothers and sisters. So, when we come to your land that has shoved these types of ideologies down the throats of our people, our youth, in school curriculums, through the BIA boarding school assimilation process that our grandfathers, grandmothers and parents had to endure. Part of this struggle is tied to uranium development. It is that generation that had to live through the assimilative policies of this country that made the decision to mine uranium on our land. They had been to World War II, they had been through World War I, and they were told that they were heroes and that in order to continue to protect our land, uranium would have to be mined. This is the generation that has affected us for the future, that made those decisions.

In the bureaucracy of our federal government in the United States is the Bureau of Indian Affairs who helped negotiate these leases on behalf of the tribe in the 1950's. As our trustee, the Bureau of Indian Affairs misled our people -- granted, uranium was still a new industry in the United States, but they didn't tell our people the truth. The economic benefits that the corporations received compared to my people is outrageous, and they leave us with the contaminants that my brothers and sisters will address here today. I showed you the map of the region where we come from. This is the San Juan Basin Mineral Belt in New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado and Utah, the Four Corners. In this area, over 30 years uranium was developed from the 1950's to the closing of the last mine, the Chevron mine, which had the world's deepest uranium mining shaft into our sacred mountain. The Grants Mineral Belt extends from about 15 miles West of Albuquerque to the Arizona border. It's approximately 60 miles wide and 100 miles long.

At the height of uranium development within a 30 miles radius of our reservation are Laguna Pueblo, Acomita, McCartys -- all communities within the Acoma Reservation -- and Paraje and Paguate on the Laguna Reservation. You can see by the numbers of all the mines that existed were downwinders from the Grants Mineral Belt and the Ambrosia Lake Area to the West and the uranium that was developed on the Navajo Land. You know, this area produced great amounts of uranium during the height of development.

In this area, Indians owned or controlled about 50 percent of the nation's uranium supply and mostly concentrated on Navajo and Laguna reservations. Within the Grants Mineral Belt, 25 percent of the United States' uranium in the 1970's and eleven percent of the world's uranium were mined in this area within a 30 mile radius of our people's native lands. Along with the world's deepest mineshaft was also the world's largest uranium mill at Ambrosia Lake. Within the Pueblo of Laguna lay the world's largest open pit strip mine, in operation from 1953 to 1982. You know, these are "world bests" we don't want on our land anymore, we don't want to be known for all the world's deepest and worst uranium atrocities on our land, never again!

As Jackpile opened in 1953, 24 million tons of ore were mined over a 30 year period. This was a 24-hour-a-day, 365-days-a-year operation for 30 years until it shut down on March 31, 1982. The Atomic Energy Commission was the primary buyer of uranium from Jackpile, so we know this uranium went directly to build the nuclear arsenal of the United States of America, which has the capacity to blow the world, I don't know how many times, over. But this was coming from our land, our sacred mountain, at the disgust of our traditional Elders and our traditional leaders.

Right now, Jackpile Mine lies like a sore in the middle of the New Mexico desert. And within 1,000 feet from the world's largest open pit uranium mine lies the village of Paguate. When the wind blows from an easterly to westerly direction, these people are directly in line with the waste overburden and tailings that laid unreclaimed from when the mine closed in 1982 till the reclamation project began in 1989. Seven years these people had to endure radioactivity in their backyard. This is what we had to deal with, this is what we have to live with, and this is what my people will reiterate to you here, today.

Granted, uranium development improved the quality of life on the reservation when you look at it from a monetary perspective. Over 800 Laguna Pueblo Indians were employed at the mine at the height of development, the unemployment rate dropped to less than 20 percent. Prior to uranium mining it was in the 70 percentiles. But after the bust it has returned to that percentage. With an improved quality of life came increased wages. For Indian people, that is not always a positive outcome. Increased wages meant increased access to alcohol. Increased alcohol meant greater crime rate, more domestic violence among our people, spouse abuse, child abuse, an increased suicide rate and drug-use. All these issues that the technological culture does not consider that we have to live with in their environmental impact statements: destruction to our traditional life styles.

We went from being agriculturalists and livestock raisers to wage earners, and that impacted our traditional culture, our traditional language, participation in our ceremonies. During the height of uranium mining, people prioritized their eight-to-five-job, their eight-hour-a-day-job over participating in the ceremonies. This is what lies undocumented among our people. Our Elders cry today that the generation below us cannot speak our language. Some of them don't have any idea of how to participate in the ceremonies. These are the issues that go unaccounted for, that we bring to you here, that we bring to the world.

If uranium mining would have continued in the Grants Mineral Belt, this is what we would be looking at today. These many mines within the San Juan Basin area and the aboriginal homelands of the Diné and the Acoma and Laguna people. So I ask you today here at this World Uranium Hearing: Put yourself in our place! Think about with what we have to live, what we have to endure, what we have to continue to endure, and I will leave you with the words and wisdom of my grandfather who entered the spirit world four years ago. I've been in this struggle a long time, when it was unpopular to speak out about the mine. When those 800 people were employed, I was a very unpopular person because I was speaking the issues that I speak here today. No one wanted their job threatened, no one wanted the tribal budget threatened, no one wanted to take a stand about these issues that we're talking about here today. But my grandfather gave me a basic philosophy that I continue to live by today and that is: "To destroy the land is to destroy the people."

My brothers and sisters, my fellow panel members will show you how this destruction has taken place. As a humble Acoma man I thank you for giving me this opportunity to come half way around the world to address you here today.

 

[KurskKnyaz]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon.

Where I live people don't scare chickens in some plot to buy their way into a neighborhood full of drunken Indians. What kind of threats do they make against the chickens? ...and where are the roosters during all this?

BTW what history? ...and how is history relevant to how effective modern reactors are.

The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

No shit?! ....that was sarcasm

Ah, so you are the one being sarcastic.

Manuel Pino
Manuel Pino, Acoma Nation, New Mexico, USA. Currently working on a Ph.D. about the effects of uranium mining on the identity of the Indian people, i.e. loss of traditional values and an increase in suicide and alcoholism.



(Greetings in Keres)

Greetings to all the Indigenous people and European people! We are here representing our Elders from Acoma and the Laguna Pueblo. We bring our Elders' message because flying across the great Atlantic Ocean is something they cannot conceive. We are still a very traditional people. Us, like the Hopis and Acoma, claim to be the oldest continuous village in North America. As you can see by the transparency upon the screen here, we come from the southwestern part of the United States and like numerous of the groups that have preceded here today, we have been impacted by uranium development for over 40 years, and we bring the message of our Elders because they are our wisdom. They are our future and they are our past.

We brought some of our children with us to give you an idea of how they feel about this development and how it impacts them and their children and their children's children. As we speak to you here today we are very humble people. That is the traditional way of the Acoma and the Laguna. We come here to address the issues that have confronted our people. One of the hardest things for us to deal with as human beings, is to watch and sit throughout this 30 year period of development as our sacred mountain, Mount Taylor, was desecrated. They stuck the world's deepest uranium mine shaft into our sacred mountain.

I ask you, people of Salzburg, how would you feel if we came here and stuck a jack hammer into the Salzburg Cathedral? That's the way we feel about what is being done to our sacred mountain. It is our life, it is our existence, it is our future, it is our present and it is our past. We come to you here in your western culture which exemplifies the characteristics of western culture, and that is the idea that humans are superior to the world they inhabit. According to your book of Genesis, humans were made in the image of God who told them: "Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and every living thing that moves upon this earth." This is the way western culture tends to view nature as a wilderness to be conquered and tamed by human effort. The art, the literature and the folk tales of the West repeatedly show people in heroic struggles against the forces of nature.

Well, us Indian people contradict that argument. We live the opposite. We believe that Mother Earth is not to mess with. And all those species and living things from the smallest insects that crawl to the elk, to the buffalo, they are all our brothers and sisters. So, when we come to your land that has shoved these types of ideologies down the throats of our people, our youth, in school curriculums, through the BIA boarding school assimilation process that our grandfathers, grandmothers and parents had to endure. Part of this struggle is tied to uranium development. It is that generation that had to live through the assimilative policies of this country that made the decision to mine uranium on our land. They had been to World War II, they had been through World War I, and they were told that they were heroes and that in order to continue to protect our land, uranium would have to be mined. This is the generation that has affected us for the future, that made those decisions.

In the bureaucracy of our federal government in the United States is the Bureau of Indian Affairs who helped negotiate these leases on behalf of the tribe in the 1950's. As our trustee, the Bureau of Indian Affairs misled our people -- granted, uranium was still a new industry in the United States, but they didn't tell our people the truth. The economic benefits that the corporations received compared to my people is outrageous, and they leave us with the contaminants that my brothers and sisters will address here today. I showed you the map of the region where we come from. This is the San Juan Basin Mineral Belt in New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado and Utah, the Four Corners. In this area, over 30 years uranium was developed from the 1950's to the closing of the last mine, the Chevron mine, which had the world's deepest uranium mining shaft into our sacred mountain. The Grants Mineral Belt extends from about 15 miles West of Albuquerque to the Arizona border. It's approximately 60 miles wide and 100 miles long.

At the height of uranium development within a 30 miles radius of our reservation are Laguna Pueblo, Acomita, McCartys -- all communities within the Acoma Reservation -- and Paraje and Paguate on the Laguna Reservation. You can see by the numbers of all the mines that existed were downwinders from the Grants Mineral Belt and the Ambrosia Lake Area to the West and the uranium that was developed on the Navajo Land. You know, this area produced great amounts of uranium during the height of development.

In this area, Indians owned or controlled about 50 percent of the nation's uranium supply and mostly concentrated on Navajo and Laguna reservations. Within the Grants Mineral Belt, 25 percent of the United States' uranium in the 1970's and eleven percent of the world's uranium were mined in this area within a 30 mile radius of our people's native lands. Along with the world's deepest mineshaft was also the world's largest uranium mill at Ambrosia Lake. Within the Pueblo of Laguna lay the world's largest open pit strip mine, in operation from 1953 to 1982. You know, these are "world bests" we don't want on our land anymore, we don't want to be known for all the world's deepest and worst uranium atrocities on our land, never again!

As Jackpile opened in 1953, 24 million tons of ore were mined over a 30 year period. This was a 24-hour-a-day, 365-days-a-year operation for 30 years until it shut down on March 31, 1982. The Atomic Energy Commission was the primary buyer of uranium from Jackpile, so we know this uranium went directly to build the nuclear arsenal of the United States of America, which has the capacity to blow the world, I don't know how many times, over. But this was coming from our land, our sacred mountain, at the disgust of our traditional Elders and our traditional leaders.

Right now, Jackpile Mine lies like a sore in the middle of the New Mexico desert. And within 1,000 feet from the world's largest open pit uranium mine lies the village of Paguate. When the wind blows from an easterly to westerly direction, these people are directly in line with the waste overburden and tailings that laid unreclaimed from when the mine closed in 1982 till the reclamation project began in 1989. Seven years these people had to endure radioactivity in their backyard. This is what we had to deal with, this is what we have to live with, and this is what my people will reiterate to you here, today.

Granted, uranium development improved the quality of life on the reservation when you look at it from a monetary perspective. Over 800 Laguna Pueblo Indians were employed at the mine at the height of development, the unemployment rate dropped to less than 20 percent. Prior to uranium mining it was in the 70 percentiles. But after the bust it has returned to that percentage. With an improved quality of life came increased wages. For Indian people, that is not always a positive outcome. Increased wages meant increased access to alcohol. Increased alcohol meant greater crime rate, more domestic violence among our people, spouse abuse, child abuse, an increased suicide rate and drug-use. All these issues that the technological culture does not consider that we have to live with in their environmental impact statements: destruction to our traditional life styles.

We went from being agriculturalists and livestock raisers to wage earners, and that impacted our traditional culture, our traditional language, participation in our ceremonies. During the height of uranium mining, people prioritized their eight-to-five-job, their eight-hour-a-day-job over participating in the ceremonies. This is what lies undocumented among our people. Our Elders cry today that the generation below us cannot speak our language. Some of them don't have any idea of how to participate in the ceremonies. These are the issues that go unaccounted for, that we bring to you here, that we bring to the world.

If uranium mining would have continued in the Grants Mineral Belt, this is what we would be looking at today. These many mines within the San Juan Basin area and the aboriginal homelands of the Diné and the Acoma and Laguna people. So I ask you today here at this World Uranium Hearing: Put yourself in our place! Think about with what we have to live, what we have to endure, what we have to continue to endure, and I will leave you with the words and wisdom of my grandfather who entered the spirit world four years ago. I've been in this struggle a long time, when it was unpopular to speak out about the mine. When those 800 people were employed, I was a very unpopular person because I was speaking the issues that I speak here today. No one wanted their job threatened, no one wanted the tribal budget threatened, no one wanted to take a stand about these issues that we're talking about here today. But my grandfather gave me a basic philosophy that I continue to live by today and that is: "To destroy the land is to destroy the people."

My brothers and sisters, my fellow panel members will show you how this destruction has taken place. As a humble Acoma man I thank you for giving me this opportunity to come half way around the world to address you here today.

I thought I made it clear that:

1) I'm not going to read other peoples writing to support your arguments (summarize it in a paragraph)

2) I asked about how the history is relevant to the effectiveness of modern reactors. What I got from you was an article about drunken and depressed Indians. Nice work.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon.

Where I live people don't scare chickens in some plot to buy their way into a neighborhood full of drunken Indians. What kind of threats do they make against the chickens? ...and where are the roosters during all this?

BTW what history? ...and how is history relevant to how effective modern reactors are.

The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

No shit?! ....that was sarcasm

I can't help but point something out. You criticize Moonbeam for proposing we use concentrated solar power in deserts because of the logistics of transporting water in for the condensers, yet when he applies the same argument to nuclear you scoff at him, implying that the logistics of transporting in water is not an issue.

So is it practical to truck/pipe in water or not? Or are you just grasping at straws trying to dismiss the idea of CSP? 😉

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon.

Where I live people don't scare chickens in some plot to buy their way into a neighborhood full of drunken Indians. What kind of threats do they make against the chickens? ...and where are the roosters during all this?

BTW what history? ...and how is history relevant to how effective modern reactors are.

The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

No shit?! ....that was sarcasm

Ah, so you are the one being sarcastic.

Manuel Pino
Manuel Pino, Acoma Nation, New Mexico, USA. Currently working on a Ph.D. about the effects of uranium mining on the identity of the Indian people, i.e. loss of traditional values and an increase in suicide and alcoholism.



(Greetings in Keres)

Greetings to all the Indigenous people and European people! We are here representing our Elders from Acoma and the Laguna Pueblo. We bring our Elders' message because flying across the great Atlantic Ocean is something they cannot conceive. We are still a very traditional people. Us, like the Hopis and Acoma, claim to be the oldest continuous village in North America. As you can see by the transparency upon the screen here, we come from the southwestern part of the United States and like numerous of the groups that have preceded here today, we have been impacted by uranium development for over 40 years, and we bring the message of our Elders because they are our wisdom. They are our future and they are our past.

We brought some of our children with us to give you an idea of how they feel about this development and how it impacts them and their children and their children's children. As we speak to you here today we are very humble people. That is the traditional way of the Acoma and the Laguna. We come here to address the issues that have confronted our people. One of the hardest things for us to deal with as human beings, is to watch and sit throughout this 30 year period of development as our sacred mountain, Mount Taylor, was desecrated. They stuck the world's deepest uranium mine shaft into our sacred mountain.

I ask you, people of Salzburg, how would you feel if we came here and stuck a jack hammer into the Salzburg Cathedral? That's the way we feel about what is being done to our sacred mountain. It is our life, it is our existence, it is our future, it is our present and it is our past. We come to you here in your western culture which exemplifies the characteristics of western culture, and that is the idea that humans are superior to the world they inhabit. According to your book of Genesis, humans were made in the image of God who told them: "Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and every living thing that moves upon this earth." This is the way western culture tends to view nature as a wilderness to be conquered and tamed by human effort. The art, the literature and the folk tales of the West repeatedly show people in heroic struggles against the forces of nature.

Well, us Indian people contradict that argument. We live the opposite. We believe that Mother Earth is not to mess with. And all those species and living things from the smallest insects that crawl to the elk, to the buffalo, they are all our brothers and sisters. So, when we come to your land that has shoved these types of ideologies down the throats of our people, our youth, in school curriculums, through the BIA boarding school assimilation process that our grandfathers, grandmothers and parents had to endure. Part of this struggle is tied to uranium development. It is that generation that had to live through the assimilative policies of this country that made the decision to mine uranium on our land. They had been to World War II, they had been through World War I, and they were told that they were heroes and that in order to continue to protect our land, uranium would have to be mined. This is the generation that has affected us for the future, that made those decisions.

In the bureaucracy of our federal government in the United States is the Bureau of Indian Affairs who helped negotiate these leases on behalf of the tribe in the 1950's. As our trustee, the Bureau of Indian Affairs misled our people -- granted, uranium was still a new industry in the United States, but they didn't tell our people the truth. The economic benefits that the corporations received compared to my people is outrageous, and they leave us with the contaminants that my brothers and sisters will address here today. I showed you the map of the region where we come from. This is the San Juan Basin Mineral Belt in New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado and Utah, the Four Corners. In this area, over 30 years uranium was developed from the 1950's to the closing of the last mine, the Chevron mine, which had the world's deepest uranium mining shaft into our sacred mountain. The Grants Mineral Belt extends from about 15 miles West of Albuquerque to the Arizona border. It's approximately 60 miles wide and 100 miles long.

At the height of uranium development within a 30 miles radius of our reservation are Laguna Pueblo, Acomita, McCartys -- all communities within the Acoma Reservation -- and Paraje and Paguate on the Laguna Reservation. You can see by the numbers of all the mines that existed were downwinders from the Grants Mineral Belt and the Ambrosia Lake Area to the West and the uranium that was developed on the Navajo Land. You know, this area produced great amounts of uranium during the height of development.

In this area, Indians owned or controlled about 50 percent of the nation's uranium supply and mostly concentrated on Navajo and Laguna reservations. Within the Grants Mineral Belt, 25 percent of the United States' uranium in the 1970's and eleven percent of the world's uranium were mined in this area within a 30 mile radius of our people's native lands. Along with the world's deepest mineshaft was also the world's largest uranium mill at Ambrosia Lake. Within the Pueblo of Laguna lay the world's largest open pit strip mine, in operation from 1953 to 1982. You know, these are "world bests" we don't want on our land anymore, we don't want to be known for all the world's deepest and worst uranium atrocities on our land, never again!

As Jackpile opened in 1953, 24 million tons of ore were mined over a 30 year period. This was a 24-hour-a-day, 365-days-a-year operation for 30 years until it shut down on March 31, 1982. The Atomic Energy Commission was the primary buyer of uranium from Jackpile, so we know this uranium went directly to build the nuclear arsenal of the United States of America, which has the capacity to blow the world, I don't know how many times, over. But this was coming from our land, our sacred mountain, at the disgust of our traditional Elders and our traditional leaders.

Right now, Jackpile Mine lies like a sore in the middle of the New Mexico desert. And within 1,000 feet from the world's largest open pit uranium mine lies the village of Paguate. When the wind blows from an easterly to westerly direction, these people are directly in line with the waste overburden and tailings that laid unreclaimed from when the mine closed in 1982 till the reclamation project began in 1989. Seven years these people had to endure radioactivity in their backyard. This is what we had to deal with, this is what we have to live with, and this is what my people will reiterate to you here, today.

Granted, uranium development improved the quality of life on the reservation when you look at it from a monetary perspective. Over 800 Laguna Pueblo Indians were employed at the mine at the height of development, the unemployment rate dropped to less than 20 percent. Prior to uranium mining it was in the 70 percentiles. But after the bust it has returned to that percentage. With an improved quality of life came increased wages. For Indian people, that is not always a positive outcome. Increased wages meant increased access to alcohol. Increased alcohol meant greater crime rate, more domestic violence among our people, spouse abuse, child abuse, an increased suicide rate and drug-use. All these issues that the technological culture does not consider that we have to live with in their environmental impact statements: destruction to our traditional life styles.

We went from being agriculturalists and livestock raisers to wage earners, and that impacted our traditional culture, our traditional language, participation in our ceremonies. During the height of uranium mining, people prioritized their eight-to-five-job, their eight-hour-a-day-job over participating in the ceremonies. This is what lies undocumented among our people. Our Elders cry today that the generation below us cannot speak our language. Some of them don't have any idea of how to participate in the ceremonies. These are the issues that go unaccounted for, that we bring to you here, that we bring to the world.

If uranium mining would have continued in the Grants Mineral Belt, this is what we would be looking at today. These many mines within the San Juan Basin area and the aboriginal homelands of the Diné and the Acoma and Laguna people. So I ask you today here at this World Uranium Hearing: Put yourself in our place! Think about with what we have to live, what we have to endure, what we have to continue to endure, and I will leave you with the words and wisdom of my grandfather who entered the spirit world four years ago. I've been in this struggle a long time, when it was unpopular to speak out about the mine. When those 800 people were employed, I was a very unpopular person because I was speaking the issues that I speak here today. No one wanted their job threatened, no one wanted the tribal budget threatened, no one wanted to take a stand about these issues that we're talking about here today. But my grandfather gave me a basic philosophy that I continue to live by today and that is: "To destroy the land is to destroy the people."

My brothers and sisters, my fellow panel members will show you how this destruction has taken place. As a humble Acoma man I thank you for giving me this opportunity to come half way around the world to address you here today.

I thought I made it clear that:

1) I'm not going to read other peoples writing to support your arguments (summarize it in a paragraph)

2) I asked about how the history is relevant to the effectiveness of modern reactors. What I got from you was an article about drunken and depressed Indians. Nice work.

 

[Moonbeam]

I thought I made it clear that:

1) I'm not going to read other peoples writing to support your arguments (summarize it in a paragraph)

2) I asked about how the history is relevant to the effectiveness of modern reactors. What I got from you was an article about drunken and depressed Indians. Nice work.

================

1. Go fuck yourself.

2. The history I was referring to had nothing to do with the effectiveness of modern reactors, you fool.

3. It's a rare pleasure to meet somebody so obtuse. Are you an engineer? You have all the characteristics of one, a total focus on minutia and a complete absence of any sense of the big picture. You also seem to be rather young and absent any mature analysis.

4. If you don't want to read you're not worth wasting time on.

 

[KurskKnyaz]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon.

Where I live people don't scare chickens in some plot to buy their way into a neighborhood full of drunken Indians. What kind of threats do they make against the chickens? ...and where are the roosters during all this?

BTW what history? ...and how is history relevant to how effective modern reactors are.

The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

No shit?! ....that was sarcasm

I can't help but point something out. You criticize Moonbeam for proposing we use concentrated solar power in deserts because of the logistics of transporting water in for the condensers, yet when he applies the same argument to nuclear you scoff at him, implying that the logistics of transporting in water is not an issue.

So is it practical to truck/pipe in water or not? Or are you just grasping at straws trying to dismiss the idea of CSP? 😉

You got it wrong. I was arguing that you cannot wire the entire country to the desert. Moonbeam said that you could. I said that if you could then you might as well built a nuclear power plant because it is more efficient (sarcasm). Forget about water, wiring the entire country to a single location is insane and can't be done, nuke or solar.

Is it practical to pipe water? That depends on the geographic location of the solar plant. Why is this such a hard concept to understand. Is solar power practical for Nevada? Maybe. Is it practical for the entire country? Absolutely not. Moonbeam thinks that the entire country can run on solar. This is a fantasy. I'm not dismissing CSP, I'm just saying that it doesn't work for the majority.

 

[KurskKnyaz]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

2. The history I was referring to had nothing to do with the effectiveness of modern reactors, you fool.

Wow you are thick. I know that the history you are referring to has nothing to do with effectiveness. However, this thread does. I don't know why you would even Google that.

1. Go fuck yourself.

3. It's a rare pleasure to meet somebody so obtuse. Are you an engineer? You have all the characteristics of one, a total focus on minutia and a complete absence of any sense of the big picture. You also seem to be rather young and absent any mature analysis.

4. If you don't want to read you're not worth wasting time on.

Is this what a "mature analysis" sounds like:

...the last people on earth we want advising us about nuclear power are nuclear engineers. Such egg heads need close attention when they tie their shoes. It's the soccer Moms who will tell you what to do with your nuclear waste.

Not bad for a nuclear engineer, all aligned in need little rows and columns just like the linear thinking of your left-brained, rabbit hole mind, the very kind of mine that sees trees instead of a forest. Nuclear power is not a technical issue, it is a political issue and the small little nothing man who makes up John Q Public is as or more gifted in determining what is in the interest of humanity. Pin heads are sharp, but they don't cut it finding their way out of a paper bag. Spoiled little boys get angry when Mommy takes their toys.

HAhA hAHa hoHo Hehe EiEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeO

 

[KurskKnyaz]

I can't argue today anymore. I have to wake up early tomorrow for my sex-change operation. I can't wait to be a soccer mom.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
-snip-
Have you seen the new CHEAP 10 by twelve ft. steel melting solar mirrors from MIT? And 150 degree sterling engines will work at home too.

OK, interesting.

I've never heard of this stuff (at least that I can remember).

I've googled this stuff, but it's not 100% clear. I suppose the heat generated by the reflector runs the engine; must you hook it to a generator? Have you seen this employed to make home power? Can you explain a bit?

TIA

Fern

 

[KurskKnyaz]

Shitlol! That statement you wrote is a classic, Moonbeam. Its right on the level of Aimster's statement: "limiting free press by Iran is not oppression"

Whats even funnier is that when someone laughs at you for your first statement you try to get back at him by calling him a "nuclear engineer" as if it is some sort of dis. You are either really, really high or just plain fucking retarded.

 

[KurskKnyaz]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
-snip-
Have you seen the new CHEAP 10 by twelve ft. steel melting solar mirrors from MIT? And 150 degree sterling engines will work at home too.

OK, interesting.

I've never heard of this stuff (at least that I can remember).

I've googled this stuff, but it's not 100% clear. I suppose the heat generated by the reflector runs the engine; must you hook it to a generator? Have you seen this employed to make home power? Can you explain a bit?

TIA

Fern

Don't bother. The cartoon that Moonbeam lives in has alternative physics, along with hordes of drunken Indians and chickens who are victims of fear-mongering.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon.

Where I live people don't scare chickens in some plot to buy their way into a neighborhood full of drunken Indians. What kind of threats do they make against the chickens? ...and where are the roosters during all this?

BTW what history? ...and how is history relevant to how effective modern reactors are.

The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

No shit?! ....that was sarcasm

I can't help but point something out. You criticize Moonbeam for proposing we use concentrated solar power in deserts because of the logistics of transporting water in for the condensers, yet when he applies the same argument to nuclear you scoff at him, implying that the logistics of transporting in water is not an issue.

So is it practical to truck/pipe in water or not? Or are you just grasping at straws trying to dismiss the idea of CSP? 😉

You got it wrong. I was arguing that you cannot wire the entire country to the desert. Moonbeam said that you could. I said that if you could then you might as well built a nuclear power plant because it is more efficient (sarcasm). Forget about water, wiring the entire country to a single location is insane and can't be done, nuke or solar.

Is it practical to pipe water? That depends on the geographic location of the solar plant. Why is this such a hard concept to understand. Is solar power practical for Nevada? Maybe. Is it practical for the entire country? Absolutely not. Moonbeam thinks that the entire country can run on solar. This is a fantasy. I'm not dismissing CSP, I'm just saying that it doesn't work for the majority.

Well I know the water issue was part of your argument earlier, but if you want to focus only on distribution now that's fine. I was just addressing that particular claim of yours, I tend to agree with you about distribution (and even if it were possible to provide all our power from the southwestern deserts, I think it would be incredibly stupid to put all our eggs in one basket, so to speak). But it sounds like we could offset a good portion of our energy needs from CSP in the southwestern US, I say go for it. Moonbeam's argument isn't that nuclear can't be (relatively) safely stored of, just that opinions on nuclear don't seem to make long-term storage a realistic solution. Senator Harry Reid is a big opponent of Yucca Mountain and has vowed to ensure that it doesn't come to fruition. As Senate majority leader, he now has the power to greatly influence the future of the project. There is a very real possibility that Yucca Mountain will be scrapped, meaning that the four decades of research and nine billion dollars thrown at the project all would have been in vain. And thanks to the not-in-my-backyard mentality and general fear/ignorance about nuclear, it is likely other sites at other locations would meet the same fate. Or instead, we could spend the money on projects such as CSP, which may not be quite as efficient/cost effective, but are clean, safe, and don't produce radioactive waste. 🙂

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


You are so ignorant of history you don't have the slightest understanding of what I allude to in what I say. You don't know it but you are the cartoon.

Where I live people don't scare chickens in some plot to buy their way into a neighborhood full of drunken Indians. What kind of threats do they make against the chickens? ...and where are the roosters during all this?

BTW what history? ...and how is history relevant to how effective modern reactors are.

The desert would be a great place for nuclear reactor, but for, you see, this little problem of water. Hehe.

No shit?! ....that was sarcasm

I can't help but point something out. You criticize Moonbeam for proposing we use concentrated solar power in deserts because of the logistics of transporting water in for the condensers, yet when he applies the same argument to nuclear you scoff at him, implying that the logistics of transporting in water is not an issue.

So is it practical to truck/pipe in water or not? Or are you just grasping at straws trying to dismiss the idea of CSP? 😉

You got it wrong. I was arguing that you cannot wire the entire country to the desert. Moonbeam said that you could. I said that if you could then you might as well built a nuclear power plant because it is more efficient (sarcasm). Forget about water, wiring the entire country to a single location is insane and can't be done, nuke or solar.

Is it practical to pipe water? That depends on the geographic location of the solar plant. Why is this such a hard concept to understand. Is solar power practical for Nevada? Maybe. Is it practical for the entire country? Absolutely not. Moonbeam thinks that the entire country can run on solar. This is a fantasy. I'm not dismissing CSP, I'm just saying that it doesn't work for the majority.

Well I know the water issue was part of your argument earlier, but if you want to focus only on distribution now that's fine. I was just addressing that particular claim of yours, I tend to agree with you about distribution (and even if it were possible to provide all our power from the southwestern deserts, I think it would be incredibly stupid to put all our eggs in one basket, so to speak). But it sounds like we could offset a good portion of our energy needs from CSP in the southwestern US, I say go for it. Moonbeam's argument isn't that nuclear can't be (relatively) safely stored of, just that opinions on nuclear don't seem to make long-term storage a realistic solution. Senator Harry Reid is a big opponent of Yucca Mountain and has vowed to ensure that it doesn't come to fruition. As Senate majority leader, he now has the power to greatly influence the future of the project. There is a very real possibility that Yucca Mountain will be scrapped, meaning that the four decades of research and nine billion dollars thrown at the project all would have been in vain. And thanks to the not-in-my-backyard mentality and general fear/ignorance about nuclear, it is likely other sites at other locations would meet the same fate. Or instead, we could spend the money on projects such as CSP, which may not be quite as efficient/cost effective, but are clean, safe, and don't produce radioactive waste. 🙂

Very nice.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
-snip-
Have you seen the new CHEAP 10 by twelve ft. steel melting solar mirrors from MIT? And 150 degree sterling engines will work at home too.

OK, interesting.

I've never heard of this stuff (at least that I can remember).

I've googled this stuff, but it's not 100% clear. I suppose the heat generated by the reflector runs the engine; must you hook it to a generator? Have you seen this employed to make home power? Can you explain a bit?

TIA

Fern

MIT student project, perhaps to powerful for the home. Pg 5

I can't find the new product I saw that uses 150 degree water to cool and produce electricity. It employed a novel way of condensing the liquid before injecting it into a venturi and turbine as a gas.

 

[bobcpg]

Originally posted by: Harvey
HELL NO! WE WON'T GLOW!

Fuck McSame yet again.

McSame, cute. Did you come up with that all by yourself?

Typical, all negative feedback with no alternative. I'm sure you are all for the new plug in cars too. Might want to think about that one :shocked:

 

[marincounty]

Obama criticizes McCain's plan for 45 new Nuclear reactors.

Barack Obama said Tuesday that he would not take nuclear power "off the table" as a possible energy option, but blasted John McCain's proposal to build dozens of new reactors in the U.S.

The Democratic presidential candidate sought to carve out a more cautious approach to nuclear power. He said he supports increased research into nuclear waste storage and recycling, but could not endorse construction of new reactors until those concerns are resolved.

"If we can figure that out effectively, then nuclear has some big advantages _ the fact that it doesn't release greenhouse gases being the most important," the Illinois senator told a group of "green" industry workers at a Las Vegas campaign stop.

Obama also criticized the Arizona senator's plan to open up oil drilling in the U.S.

"It makes about as much sense as his proposal to build 45 new nuclear reactors without a plan to store waste someplace other than right here at Yucca Mountain," Obama said. "These are not serious energy policies."

Obama made his remarks at the Springs Preserve, a nature preserve west of the Las Vegas Strip. He also toured the preserve's solar power facility and called for increased development of solar, wind and biofuels as alternative energy sources.

Obama said his proposals would create jobs and help revive Nevada's economy, which has been battered by slowdowns in housing construction and gambling and tourism.

The senator also said he remained open to supporting "clean coal" as a potential alternative to polluting fossil fuels.

The comment raised the eyebrows of environmental activist Scot Rutledge, who told the candidate the term was commonly used by the coal industry for a production process that is not considered clean by many in the environmental community.

Rutledge's group, the Nevada Conservation League, has joined an effort to block the construction of new coal plants in northern Nevada. He asked Obama to pledge not to use the term.

Obama didn't directly agree to the pledge, but said Rutledge had a "fair point."

"If the technology is not there to sequester the coal _ and, right now, frankly it is not where it needs to be _ I don't think we should be creating new coal plants with old technologies that are, at best, going to be obsolete," Obama said.

Text

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Barack Obama said Tuesday that he would not take nuclear power "off the table" as a possible energy option, but blasted John McCain's proposal to build dozens of new reactors in the U.S.

The Democratic presidential candidate sought to carve out a more cautious approach to nuclear power. He said he supports increased research into nuclear waste storage and recycling, but could not endorse construction of new reactors until those concerns are resolved.

:thumbsup:

I completely agree with this. I don't want the cheaper/faster solution when it comes to Nuclear Power. If we are going to go down this route, let's do it properly. I believe that we have the means to cover this problem from all angles and come out on top. The only major difference is that doing it right will take a little longer, but it will most likely be worth it in the long run.

 

[Brovane]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brovane

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brovane
How is solar power supposed to generate large amount of base load electrical power in the Gigawatt range consistently day and night?

Lots of ways. Molten salt is being used now. A new company is selling fly wheels that turn at 16,000 revs that store electrical power that can level loads from wind, sun, or outages. Capacitance batteries are being developed. Water can be pumped up hill behind dams in the day time. Sterling engines are being built that run at 150 degrees that produce electricity and air conditioning. It's all about attitude. When you say we will life off the sun human ingenuity will find a way. The trick is not to go down the poison path.

Oops I forgot that electricity can be transmitted long distances and its always day time somewhere.

Great so you are going to transmit solar energy from one side of the globe to the other side that is darkness? That is going to go over like a fart in church. Solar is great technology and there should be incentives especially in areas with good sunlight to have every new house have solar cells on the roof. Even the technology's like fly wheels only store in the Mw's and only for minutes at time. You need a technology that can reliably generate Gw's of electricity every minute of the day. There is basically 2 ways currently to generate large amounts of base load electrical power cheaply and that is nuclear and coal one puts out a whole lot less C02 than the other one. Solar, Wind, Hydro, Gas all have there part to play in a reliable future electrical generation just like nuclear has a part to play to. What I see is Solar, Wind, Hydro and Gas all playing a role in peak electrical. One of the great things about Hydro and Gas is with a flick of a switch you can quickly start producing electricity when needed and then turn it off. Nuclear has the role to play in that base load that keeps the lights on at night. Nuclear waste is a issue but instead of having rational debate we have conversations about having animals glow in the dark etc. Nuclear waste can be considerably reduced if the US reprocessed the fuel however the government doesn't allow it. Also remember that the current generation of nuclear reactors were basically designed in the 60's. The generation of reactors that are being designed right now are safer and more efficient. I have no problem moving forward with nuclear technology and I would have no problem living by a nuclear reactor (I currently live with 20miles of one). I would have no problem living by a nuclear waste site as long as the process was open and subject to legitimate public debate without theatrics. The nuclear plant I live near generates over 2,000+ Mw of power with zero C02 emissions. There has been some damage to the ocean around the reactor because of the increase temperatures from the water that is discharged. I remember in high school my Biology teacher making a big deal about this damage and then I asked him what would have been the damage to the environment from a 2,000+ Mw conventional power plant in the same location, he didn't like me after that comment and never assigned the question either. Instead we are stuck with a lot of debate based on fear and scare tactics.

Do you have a source for the fart in church or was it your own? You need to know that you can be right and irrelevant. Nuclear power is great except for the waste. What you would live by is not what most people will live by. Did you ask about an equivalent plant with solar not in your neighborhood or ruining your ocean, but in the desert? If you know a way to overcome irrational fear please let me know. Those stupid little people and their irrational fears you intellectuals despise happen to vote.

The implications of transmitting power from one side of the globe to another involve a huge amount of politics. You would need at basically at least 4 solar generation stations positioned around 6 time zones apart spread across the globe with a interconnect of transmission lines between all the countries that participate. Also each of the solar generation stations would have to carry the full load. So if all the countries participating needed 5Tw of power total from this solar farm (Total power consumption worldwide is around 15 Tw) and there was 4 of them spread across the globe you would need 20 Tw of generating capacity because each solar farm would need to generate 5 Tw. Could you imagine the stable geo political environment that would need to exist for all the countries to agree to something like this. That environment doesn't exist. Just from a national security perspective the US wouldn't want to get power from say Africa for power during the night time hours. Not to mention possible issues with long transmission lines under the oceans carrying massive amounts of power thousands of miles.

The solar plant in the desert is not going to generate power 24x7x365. The nuclear plant runs 24x7x365 and occupies a small foot print and is not vulnerable to changes in output do to seasonal variations in daylight hours.

If you would reprocess the fuel from nuclear reactors the amount of dangerous waste would be extremely small. Also the more radioactive something is the the shorter the half-life which means that you could take left over high level waste after reprocessing it and store it for say 100 years to let it cool down and then be able to place the waste in a more permanent storage area.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: marincounty

Barack Obama said Tuesday that he would not take nuclear power "off the table" as a possible energy option, but blasted John McCain's proposal to build dozens of new reactors in the U.S.

The Democratic presidential candidate sought to carve out a more cautious approach to nuclear power. He said he supports increased research into nuclear waste storage and recycling, but could not endorse construction of new reactors until those concerns are resolved.

:thumbsup:

I completely agree with this. I don't want the cheaper/faster solution when it comes to Nuclear Power. If we are going to go down this route, let's do it properly. I believe that we have the means to cover this problem from all angles and come out on top. The only major difference is that doing it right will take a little longer, but it will most likely be worth it in the long run.

More research is not what's required, we have a far more than sufficient understanding of the technology. A congressional mandate and budgeting to the DOE to reconstitute its reprocessing cycle is what is required.

 

[Baked]

Instead of using that money for fission research or put up wind farms. You think people would have the idea of putting up wind farms in the great plains for clean zero emission energy harvesting. But nope, we have to go with off shore drilling, wasting food for biofuel that's not even implemented in any major US cities, or come up w/ a hazardous method with short left span and deadly side affect. How typical.

There's a great article about powering the future after oil in the August 2005 issue of National Geographic.