Maybe older cars are just better??

[Muse]

I applaud you for trying to do your part while you can, but you're being ridiculous. Just drive more while you can, and buy some carbon offsets.

And no reason to repair $4k cosmetic damage if the car is worth $2k at best.

I used Complete Auto Works in Concord once for a PPI, and the mechanic was a pleasure to work with. You can inquire if he'd work on your old car (I have no idea). Reviews are impeccable:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/complete-auto-works-concord

It was my dad's car. He gave it to me in 2000, just before he died. Less than 36,000 miles on it and it runs fine. The car has Achilles heel being the transmission, which was by Ford and not designed for this Mazda, I suppose the car's really too heavy for it. I believe Ford and Mazda worked together designing the car. The forum I used to go to dedicated to this had lots of people who had to repair or replace their transmission after 60K or so. I had the transmission fluid replaced maybe 12 years ago. It may be worth more than 2K. Yeah, 4K is a lot, maybe I'll just ignore the damage. The transmission has acted weird occasionally, temporarily for some years now, but it goes years without that happening. I drove it Wednesday after 4+ weeks not using it and momentarily it didn't go into gear when I shifted into reverse. Tried again and it was OK.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Oh yeah don't get me wrong I love older vehicles to for this same reason. Simple design and simple systems make it a lot easier for the end user to repair them when they break.

All I'm saying is that with those simpler designs also comes some drawbacks. Newer vehicles are safer, more fuel efficient, more emissions friendly, etcetera. Anyway, it's probably safe to say that both have their own set of pluses and minuses.

There's a reason that I ran my Win9x/DOS game development machine on FAT32X volumes, even after upgrading the PC to a triple-boot with WinXP. (IOW, I escued using native NTFS because of the superior manual repairability of FAT32X volumes.)

 

[dave_the_nerd]

There's a reason that I ran my Win9x/DOS game development machine on FAT32X volumes, even after upgrading the PC to a triple-boot with WinXP. (IOW, I escued using native NTFS because of the superior manual repairability of FAT32X volumes.)

I think you mean "eschewed". That is not a word I see a lot anymore. You been reading mid-century british novels or something? Regardless, you get the WTF SAT Word Prize today.

And if I have to repair to file allocation table by hand? I follow the Jack Handy rule, and "let 'em go... because man, they're gone." Using a more modern file system might make it harder to recover from an error, but it also makes those errors less likely in the first place. When I worked at a copy shop, the number of "my file was there when I left!" issues we had with FAT16/32 USB drives was insanely high, because people would just pull them out instead of ejecting them properly, and that could do anything from erasing the last file added to deleting everything on the drive.

Similarly with cars - I might not be able to do maintenance and repairs as easily on a modern vehicle, but chances are it won't need that work done in the first place. Modern vehicles are more convenient for the consumer, but demand the availability of trained technicians. So the car you want for commuting to an office job is different than the car you want to survive a Mad Max movie.

 

[manly]

I think you mean "eschewed". That is not a word I see a lot anymore. You been reading mid-century british novels or something? Regardless, you get the WTF SAT Word Prize today.

And if I have to repair to file allocation table by hand? I follow the Jack Handy rule, and "let 'em go... because man, they're gone." Using a more modern file system might make it harder to recover from an error, but it also makes those errors less likely in the first place. When I worked at a copy shop, the number of "my file was there when I left!" issues we had with FAT16/32 USB drives was insanely high, because people would just pull them out instead of ejecting them properly, and that could do anything from erasing the last file added to deleting everything on the drive.

Similarly with cars - I might not be able to do maintenance and repairs as easily on a modern vehicle, but chances are it won't need that work done in the first place. Modern vehicles are more convenient for the consumer, but demand the availability of trained technicians. So the car you want for commuting to an office job is different than the car you want to survive a Mad Max movie.

A journaling filesystem or an early 1980s filesystem originally created for the floppy disk, what do I choose at the turn of the 21st Century for the OS drive?

 

[mindless1]

Similarly with cars - I might not be able to do maintenance and repairs as easily on a modern vehicle, but chances are it won't need that work done in the first place. Modern vehicles are more convenient for the consumer, but demand the availability of trained technicians. So the car you want for commuting to an office job is different than the car you want to survive a Mad Max movie.

In recent years I've seen an uptick in the problem report rate on *modern* vehicles, things that just don't go wrong on older ones like the entire center dash (w/screen) needing replaced, or the electric steering rack, or use-once plastic oil pans, electric parking brakes, and more. Further it seems like more and more repairs that used to be easy, now require pulling the engine or at least moving it off the mounts.

Then there's design teething pains like the generations of direct injection engines that don't have an additional injector(s) upstream to clean the carbon off the intake valves (nor a catch can), or turbo wastegate faults, and various trendy design issues that aren't even that recent like low profile tires that destroy themselves and the rims when taking potholes, and tires costing more than ever (not counting inflation). Another not so recent issue is how integrated the front is, to the point where you can just about total a 10 year old vehicle from a fender bender, and not just the front LED headlights but even LED rear light assemblies costing hundreds of dollars each.

If going back enough years, then there's also frame vs unibody. Around here, unless you're religious about undercoating, a unibody vehicle won't last more than about 15 years. While that seems like a long time, the average age of vehicles on the road is now about 13 years and only that low because many get totalled and scrapped. People would have kept them longer if not for that. Back in the day, if your engine went out, you could get a used one for a few hundred, a few hundred labor to put it in. Today, it's common for that to cost a few thousand with labor, and again it wasn't just due to inflation. Let's no pretend that modern vehicles are expected to last that much longer either, unless contrasting with over 30 years ago. Certain makes like Hyundai aren't expected to last 200K mi without major work needed that often totals them. I'm sure some people will disagree about Hyundai and tell me theirs has a lot more miles than that, but it's no consolation to those whose vehicles didn't make it that far.

If you drive a lot of miles, you'll save on gas but for those that don't, modern vehicles cost more than ever in TCO and I've not even mentioned the biggest money saver yet, that if it is simple enough to DIY the labor, you can often save on buying the parts as well vs shop price markup, and repairs end up costing only ~1/3rd as much. Sometimes the difference is a lot more than that. A typical electric steering rack replacement at a shop is around $1200 or more, while DIY a hydraulic rack can be under $250 and I don't mean decades ago, back then it was closer to $150.

 

[spaceman]

i think they are.
made the first brand new vehicle purchase of my life in 2023(for me)
paying it down fast but shit like removing the skid plate to change the oil and lack of zerc(?) fittings is drives me crazy.
someone with more talent than me should do a youtube skit about how disappointing "upgrading" your vehicle is.
i wish i kept my 2013 tacoma

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I see many posters wringing their hands and pulling out their hair -- both ways -- for oldies and new tech.

I'm frustrated. I've hoped to avoid investing in any more ICE vehicles. Then, I thought I'd settle for a PHEV or hybrid.

They're too damn expensive. Then there are the BEV vehicles -- all electric. Wonderful! I just came across a Cooper-Mini model which will go 150 miles on a charge. But then, a tank of gas in my old Trooper probably gets me that far.

I've spent money in the last two months on my Trooper, for new sensors and a fuel-pressure-regulator -- all possible or likely culprits in the issue of gas mileage. It's pretty much solved, but I'm still going to replace the HO2 sensor next month.

I can afford to sling a few more dollars at a 30-year-old vehicle for which I might only get $1,000 or less in selling it. It's going to be my backup ride.

But I'm still searching the options for a newer ride. And for that, I want to EARN enough from my investment nest-egg to pay for most of it outright. I'll have to wait at least until after next April. I'm not really ecstatic or enthusiastic about my new-car options -- looking at a RAV4 Hybrid XLE maybe three years old.

Believe this! I have decided to have the roof and hood of the Trooper repainted. Call it "good Feng Shui", offerings to the Trooper Manitou, or just "making me feel better".

The paint will happen Monday morning at MAACO. But what have I done? I've "afforded" myself to sling a few more dollars and invest further in an ICE vehicle.

Well . . . it runs good . . . . it's gonna look good . . . People only need to look at the body design to see that it's a "really old vehicle." NOBODY WANTS TO STEAL IT! HOW ABOUT THAT?!!

 

[Muse]

I see many posters wringing their hands and pulling out their hair -- both ways -- for oldies and new tech.

I'm frustrated. I've hoped to avoid investing in any more ICE vehicles. Then, I thought I'd settle for a PHEV or hybrid.

They're too damn expensive. Then there are the BEV vehicles -- all electric. Wonderful! I just came across a Cooper-Mini model which will go 150 miles on a charge. But then, a tank of gas in my old Trooper probably gets me that far.


Well . . . it runs good . . . . it's gonna look good . . . People only need to look at the body design to see that it's a "really old vehicle." NOBODY WANTS TO STEAL IT! HOW ABOUT THAT?!!

Yeah, my '97 2.0L Mazda 626LX has under 36,000 on it. I have been changing the oil myself, full synthetic. Guess it's been a couple years. Dad gave me the car in 2000, it was his. Runs great. Changed the tranny fluid once. Had the AC fixed (had refrigerant leaks). Gonna have it inspected next week for $450, found a place that says they'll work on it, has 4.8* rating at Yelp, people love them. About a mile from me, I figure to walk home, pick it up when ready. ICE, yeah, and disk brakes I guess. I've never driven a car with anti-lock brakes. No lasers, all the mirrors are glass. Passes smog like a new car almost. Has a few dents because bricks fell off my chimney in February, luckily missed the windshield and rear glass. They quote over $4000 to fix the dents, I suppose I'll just live with them. Gets max 22mph on the highway, I guess, that's the downside, plus the carbon footprint. But I haven't been driving it much, obviously, prefer a bicycle. I'd like to sightsee some though.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Yeah, my '97 2.0L Mazda 626LX has under 36,000 on it. I have been changing the oil myself, full synthetic. Guess it's been a couple years. Dad gave me the car in 2000, it was his. Runs great. Changed the tranny fluid once. Had the AC fixed (had refrigerant leaks). Gonna have it inspected next week for $450, found a place that says they'll work on it, has 4.8* rating at Yelp, people love them. About a mile from me, I figure to walk home, pick it up when ready. ICE, yeah, and disk brakes I guess. I've never driven a car with anti-lock brakes. No lasers, all the mirrors are glass. Passes smog like a new car almost. Has a few dents because bricks fell off my chimney in February, luckily missed the windshield and rear glass. They quote over $4000 to fix the dents, I suppose I'll just live with them. Gets max 22mph on the highway, I guess, that's the downside, plus the carbon footprint. But I haven't been driving it much, obviously, prefer a bicycle. I'd like to sightsee some though.

I can't see just "throwing away" a 27-year-old vehicle because it gets 22 MPG. With only 36,000 on the odometer?!?! At some point, if you just have dents because of some fallen bricks, you have to tell yourself that $4,000 is too much to repair something inconsequential to the vehicle's operation.

Is it possible you could repair the dents yourself? My brother's old truck -- now mine -- had a terrible dent in the hood for having some farm implement dropped on it or maybe a mild collision with some larger truck's flat-bed. I used fiberglass bondo. You can't tell there had been a dent there.

It's amazing about body damage and repair expenses. I had rear quarter-panel collision damage on the Trooper, with only a dent to fill with bondo and a damaged tail-light lens. The local body-shop wanted $1,000 to fix it. I repaired the tail-light with superglue and a $10 kit of plastic rectangles in three colors sold just for that purpose -- it was almost like "brand-new" after the repair. Later, I found a junk-yard tail-light lens for $20, purchased online, and I still keep the damaged one as a spare.

For me, if I'd been contemplating a DIY "paint adjustment" costing over $300, it's easy to shell out more than $700 just to make my SUV look nicer in its sunset years.

In the final analysis, it's all about "stocks and flows" of money, for which a lot of people don't do enough comparative assessment. My brother unloaded a perfectly-good Toyota Camry just because he didn't want to spend $900 to fix a rear door window mechanism. Returning to the "stocks and flows", $900 for one year's worth of repairs on a vehicle long since "paid for", is just routine maintenance compared to $6,000 or more in total annual new car payments under a loan.

BY THE WAY. Try to drive the Mazda on a regular basis, if only once every couple weeks. Certain materials, like rubber hoses, deteriorate faster if the a vehicle isn't driven occasionally. It's another minor dimension in "asset protection".

 

[mindless1]

'97 2.0L Mazda 626LX has under 36,000 on it... Runs great... Gonna have it inspected next week for $450, found a place that says they'll work on it, has 4.8* rating at Yelp, people love them. About a mile from me, I figure to walk home, pick it up when ready.

I'm confused. If it runs great, then why are you paying $450 to have it inspected and either way, that seems like a very high price for an inspection. Normally that's about an hour booked at $150 per, so...

Gets max 22mph on the highway, I guess, that's the downside, plus the carbon footprint. But I haven't been driving it much, obviously, prefer a bicycle. I'd like to sightsee some though.

Low MPG isn't much of a downside if you don't put on many miles per year. The carbon footprint would be higher to make (and drive) a new car to replace it at that rate, and certainly the cost in vehicle depreciation alone.

However, if sightseeing means taking it on long trips, that is one thing I don't like to do with vehicles past a certain age, would sooner rent something or even buy something newer, use it a while, then resell it at nearly what you paid. This post-covid market might be one snag in that plan, since it wouldn't be surprising if used vehicle prices continue to drop a bit, especially with the flood of overpriced new vehicles falling in value just sitting new on dealer lots, which could mean a double hit in depreciation compared to doing something like that a half dozen years ago.

I wouldn't worry too much about the rubber hoses that Bonzai mentioned, I mean that if they are a concern then I'd just replace them, but it's also things like internal seals that will shrinkf if fluid isn't circulated around, greased components losing some oil separation out of the grease, flat spots on tires, rusted brake rotors or rodent damage (if stored outdoors), and if your low mileage is due to mostly short trips, letting the (used) oil sit for long periods can increase sludge buildup.

 

[Muse]

I'm confused. If it runs great, then why are you paying $450 to have it inspected and either way, that seems like a very high price for an inspection. Normally that's about an hour booked at $150 per, so...



Low MPG isn't much of a downside if you don't put on many miles per year. The carbon footprint would be higher to make (and drive) a new car to replace it at that rate, and certainly the cost in vehicle depreciation alone.

However, if sightseeing means taking it on long trips, that is one thing I don't like to do with vehicles past a certain age, would sooner rent something or even buy something newer, use it a while, then resell it at nearly what you paid. This post-covid market might be one snag in that plan, since it wouldn't be surprising if used vehicle prices continue to drop a bit, especially with the flood of overpriced new vehicles falling in value just sitting new on dealer lots, which could mean a double hit in depreciation compared to doing something like that a half dozen years ago.

I wouldn't worry too much about the rubber hoses that Bonzai mentioned, I mean that if they are a concern then I'd just replace them, but it's also things like internal seals that will shrinkf if fluid isn't circulated around, greased components losing some oil separation out of the grease, flat spots on tires, rusted brake rotors or rodent damage (if stored outdoors), and if your low mileage is due to mostly short trips, letting the (used) oil sit for long periods can increase sludge buildup.

I haven't had anyone look at the car for several years other than a 20 minute smog-only test station workup for the California Motor Vehicle Department every 2 years. Had one done a couple months ago. Last time anybody inspected otherwise was June 21, 2014, so, ten years ago. I had a highly recommended auto repair shop fix the AC. I was pleased and a week later, that June date I mention, I had them do the 30,000 mile service, well, that's what I asked them to do. The mileage was actually 27,415 (the owner's manual says to do it after 30k or 24 months, so I figured I was actually overdue, it had been way longer than 24 months since any previous comprehensive service/inspection).

So, I figure I should bring it to somebody, certainly before I think about taking long trips. I figure I can join AAA, that would be some peace of mind. At least I could get free towing, if it comes to that.

$450 struck me as a lot too (I called them, was told that on the phone, I have never been there). I called a highly rated place previously and was told they wouldn't work on my car because it's too old. I could call around and try to find someone cheaper. I only figured I shouldn't worry about the $450 because fixing the dents from the chimney bricks that fell on it would cost literally 10 times as much! They are calling it a "minor inspection," so yeah, seems like a lot. He said they'd change the oil, check fluids, wiper blades, some other stuff I can't remember, this was months ago, but I wrote that specific stuff down. What does a major inspection run with these guys? It is Berkeley and COL is high in the Bay Area. Yelp posters mostly say they find them reasonable, professional, personal. Anyway, 10 years since anyone has even lubed it, greased whatever, inspected rubber is a long time. Nobody's checked the brakes. I guess I checked fluids a few times, besides changing oil and oil filter, which I've done myself in my driveway, every year or two with Mobil Full Synthetic.

Can all that stuff you mention be checked in an hour's inspection?

 

[mindless1]

You can check all that and more in an hour, but if they actually top off or replace fluids, wiper blades, belt(s). brake fluid flush, etc, then there's a large variability in how long that will take and what it should cost.

I'd want a $150 inspection (call it $200 due to your area) then an itemized estimate for what they feel needs done and if you are paying $150/hr addt'l for them to do things easy to DIY like pour some fluid in a hole or two, then those things I'd DIY, then consider what else is on the itemized list to have them do or not.

 

[Muse]

You can check all that and more in an hour, but if they actually top off or replace fluids, wiper blades, belt(s). brake fluid flush, etc, then there's a large variability in how long that will take and what it should cost.

I'd want a $150 inspection (call it $200 due to your area) then an itemized estimate for what they feel needs done and if you are paying $150/hr addt'l for them to do things easy to DIY like pour some fluid in a hole or two, then those things I'd DIY, then consider what else is on the itemized list to have them do or not.

I was thinking this morning about getting a lube and oil change at a Jiffy Lube or something, if they'd put in full synthetic, I'm pretty sure I can have them do that IIRC. That way I'd at least have the car lubed. I replaced the wiper blades pretty recently. I keep them covered with old towels all the time pretty much to prevent UV deterioration, plus I hardly ever drive in the rain. I have extra wiper blades, don't want to pay them to replace them . I have a case or two of Mobile Full Synthetic, too, picked up at Costco when it was on sale.

I think I'll work up a list of local repair shops and maybe just drop in on my every 3 week Costco trip and ask each (maybe 6 outfits, like I did for the dent repairs, for which I got estimates, written actually, a few months ago). I figure I can find alternatives for car repairs, not just focus on this one shop. There's bunches of car service type businesses on my way to Costco if I don't take the freeway!

Thanks for the help!

 

[BonzaiDuck]

My '95 Trooper is setting a high standard in my "new and hybrid" vehicle search.

I've put it in the spotlight over several years and threads. I'm just learning "new stuff".

First, the "design-life" of the GM engine is 200,000 miles. Thus, Izuzu guaranteed that the engine would last that long without exception -- IF! --IF! -- oil changes and other maintenance were regularly attended to.

And so you would expect a slowly rising exponential distribution of expected failures beyond the 200,000 mark.

But other intelligence from Trooper-owner web-forums suggests that the engine and transmission might last 400,000 or more with regular oil changes and necessary maintenance.

I'm going to replace the Heated Oxygen or HO2 Sensor, screwed into the catalytic converter. Having my repair shop do it will be more expensive with the part markup and labor, but it should have been changed out 100,000 miles earlier. At this point, everything will have been done to bring back the factory EPA spec or otherwise optimal gas mileage.

The spreadsheet history I've kept seems to indicate that there are no other repairs likely to be needed unless they're with the engine and transmission, but I've explained that already. And the TRANNY only has about 80,000 miles of usage. It was a remanufactured unit replacing the original in 2002 -- due to my own negligence with regard to fluid level. Since then, the Dexron has been flushed four or five times -- perhaps too much. But the last time it was done, I did it myself about four years ago or 12,000 miles.

Only the gas mileage and "modern 21st century" features of (say) a late-model-year RAV4 "Prime" XLE PHEV provide an incentive to get a newer vehicle, although such is still my plan.