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Maybe manufacturing will make a comeback

the yuan will continue to strengthen

to control inflation within prc, yes, and also to increase control of energy resources outside of china

you appreciate that serious social unrest & strife can result in fragmentation of prc - pla can not prevent, if widespread...........

I am seriously concerned that Washington has no real focus and is in "daily damage control" mode only
 
Sure it will... when America reaches the same level of poverty as China (or whatever up-and-coming shit hole is next). That or we apply tariffs.
 
Infohawk said:
Sure it will... when America reaches the same level of poverty as China (or whatever up-and-coming shit hole is next). That or we apply tariffs.
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Possibly but I've seen so much stuff coming back from Mexico that it makes my head spin so I'm not so sure that we have to get all the way down to their level to start bringing it back.

Former company that I worked for closed down 5 US plants and opened 7 Mexican plants up about 6 to 8 years ago. Now, they have expanded or opened 3 US plants and closed all 7 Mexican plants down, cheap labor be damned.

Time will tell....until then, it's stagnant wages (or lower) and the middle and top teetering as the foundation is weakened.
 
Just outsource to Mexico or somewhere else then.
Possibly but I've seen so much stuff coming back from Mexico that it makes my head spin so I'm not so sure that we have to get all the way down to their level to start bringing it back.
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I don't think we do, but the ultimate outsource is to machines. That's part of the reason why actually manufacturing is not dying in the US; it's more like manufacturing jobs are, less people required to man an increasingly automated line.

I did speak to somebody who had moved a plant to Mexico and turnover there is through the roof and the quality of worker sucks. I'm sure there are good workers but person to person comparison their worth ethic and reliability just isn't there. It may be better in China, I'm not sure.
 
Infohawk said:
Sure it will... when America reaches the same level of poverty as China (or whatever up-and-coming shit hole is next). That or we apply tariffs.
Click to expand...

It's obvious that there is no convincing you that tariffs are not the answer, they will only tax a very weak US consumer and lower overall demand.

Imports already are at a disadvantage for the simple fact that they must come from a much greater distance and transportation costs of the product are inherently higher.

GM made a huge step just a little bit ago that went unnoticed by AT P&N apparently. They negotiated with the UAW a lower wage for people working on the Chevy Sonic

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/13/business/with-chevrolet-sonic-gm-and-uaw-reinvent-automaking.html

that's an article explaining what was done to keep the manufacturing in the USA. It's the first time in a long time that a compact car was actually manufactured in the USA.

I hope the car sells well and the UAW and other car companies will be convinced to try doing this with more models, the advantage is already built-in with the fact that it will be sold in the USA.
 
Doppel said:
it's more like manufacturing jobs are, less people required to man an increasingly automated line.
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While true, you have to have people to build those lines and sell the components to build the lines and people to maintain/repair the lines. I would rather have a factory with 30 people (more highly skilled - technicians, engineers, etc) in the US than a factory with 1,000 in Mexico/China.

Oh, and you absolutely cannot automate everything...at least not for the foreseeable future.
 
Maybe manufacturing will make a comeback


No... no it won't, I think that would be great for us.. something we need actually, but benefits cost too much and owners want stuff made for as near free as possible.
 
Don't worry somehow the politicians will fuck this up and subsidize foreign countries to bleed us dry even more for the Corporate bottom line.
 
momeNt said:
It's obvious that there is no convincing you that tariffs are not the answer, they will only tax a very weak US consumer and lower overall demand.
Click to expand...

not arguing, just asking a question - wouldn't it make things (luxuries) more expensive and therefore allow US made products to compete with the chinese made stuff?
 
tommo123 said:
not arguing, just asking a question - wouldn't it make things (luxuries) more expensive and therefore allow US made products to compete with the chinese made stuff?
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Yes, there is a benefit to employment in the USA if tariffs were to be enacted, and that benefit is taken directly out of USA consumer surplus. In 99.9% of situations there is a net loss of public welfare.

The only situation where a country experiences a net gain in public welfare is if the industry that receives the benefit employs an extremely high number of people when in relation to population as a whole, thus cancelling out the tax on consumer surplus and replacing it with wages gained from employment.

An example of a situation that would experience a net benefit from a tariff would be if everybody in the USA was farmers of either rice or beans. Rice comes from China cheaper than we can produce it, so 50% of America is now unemployed, we tariff rice from China, but overall rice demand is lessened because its now more expensive, so instead of it employing the remaining 50% of USA and thus 100% of the rice farmers, it only employs say 80% of the rice farmers, so we now have 90% employment. This would assume that rice and beans are not substitutes (no atkins diet arguments please!)

Show me an industry that makes up a ridiculously large percentage of our population and I guess I can see the benefit of a protective tariff, otherwise its a net loss and you might as well just tax the goods and give the unemployed the proceeds and not even bother putting them to work.
 
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We make cars here. We build $200 billion airplanes. We manufacture heavy equipment. We export tech.

Do we really want to go back to producing socks and tshirts? As others have said... if we do that and actually want to sell this type of stuff... we will have to have people making 50 cents to $1 per hour.

The problem I see is that companies like IBM, Intel, Apple, GE, etc export their tech manufacturing to China. Who promptly steal IP, repackage, and sell cheaper.
 
rudder said:
We make cars here. We build $200 billion airplanes. We manufacture heavy equipment. We export tech.

Do we really want to go back to producing socks and tshirts? As others have said... if we do that and actually want to sell this type of stuff... we will have to have people making 50 cents to $1 per hour.

The problem I see is that companies like IBM, Intel, Apple, GE, etc export their tech manufacturing to China. Who promptly steal IP, repackage, and sell cheaper.
Click to expand...

IP laws are only as good as their enforcement, and a country like China doesn't believe that ideas can be owned, and China surprisingly has a view that on that far more libertarian than the country with the statue of liberty 😛

Tech would be a great place for the companies you mentioned to devise a way to make it more profitable to keep manufacturing in the USA. I wonder what the wage would need to be to make it competitive, assuming productivity is nearly the same.
 
Engineer said:
Possibly but I've seen so much stuff coming back from Mexico that it makes my head spin so I'm not so sure that we have to get all the way down to their level to start bringing it back.

Former company that I worked for closed down 5 US plants and opened 7 Mexican plants up about 6 to 8 years ago. Now, they have expanded or opened 3 US plants and closed all 7 Mexican plants down, cheap labor be damned.

Time will tell....until then, it's stagnant wages (or lower) and the middle and top teetering as the foundation is weakened.
Click to expand...
Of course - 'cause all the ambitious, hard-working Mexicans are now IN the US.
 
rudder said:
We make cars here. We build $200 billion airplanes. We manufacture heavy equipment. We export tech.

Do we really want to go back to producing socks and tshirts? As others have said... if we do that and actually want to sell this type of stuff... we will have to have people making 50 cents to $1 per hour.

The problem I see is that companies like IBM, Intel, Apple, GE, etc export their tech manufacturing to China. Who promptly steal IP, repackage, and sell cheaper.
Click to expand...

Well since more people can afford socks and T-shirts,I would have to say yes to this 😉
 
One of two things will have to happen:
1) Americans figure out how to "live" on $10K a year for providing labor on manufacturing goods. And, they work 16 hour days, live in the factory and disregard the environment.

2) Corporations and business owners who need manufacturing decide to earn 30% profit off of what they make and sell - instead of 90%.

American corporations who sell manufactured goods look for ways to increase profits. And, as long as there is cheap labor, they will go for cheap labor.

And, I find it pretty disturbing how so many on these forums support and cheer on these types of companies - while vilifying the American worker (lazy, corrupt, communist) - companies who are aiding an oppressive communist government. Doesn't make sense.

You call the American worker a communist who is demanding entitlement, yet you support companies that feed a real communist government.

Make up your minds, do you or do you not "hate" communism??
 
Macamus Prime said:
One of two things will have to happen:
1) Americans figure out how to "live" on $10K a year for providing labor on manufacturing goods. And, they work 16 hour days, live in the factory and disregard the environment.

2) Corporations and business owners who need manufacturing decide to earn 30% profit off of what they make and sell - instead of 90%.

American corporations who sell manufactured goods look for ways to increase profits. And, as long as there is cheap labor, they will go for cheap labor.

And, I find it pretty disturbing how so many on these forums support and cheer on these types of companies - while vilifying the American worker (lazy, corrupt, communist) - companies who are aiding an oppressive communist government. Doesn't make sense.

You call the American worker a communist who is demanding entitlement, yet you support companies that feed a real communist government.

Make up your minds, do you or do you not "hate" communism??
Click to expand...

That's because these idiots spouting right wing talking points don't work in the Manufacturing sector or most likely never had a job and don't have a clue what the true reality is.
 
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rudder said:
Do we really want to go back to producing socks and tshirts? As others have said... if we do that and actually want to sell this type of stuff... we will have to have people making 50 cents to $1 per hour.
Click to expand...

As opposed to them making ...nothing?
 
Ausm said:
That's because these idiots spouting right wing talking points don't work in the Manufacturing sector or most likely never had a job and don't have a clue what the true reality is.
Click to expand...

What is that reality? That everyone is owed a job earning $20/hour turning a wrench in a factory? Businesses exist to make money. People don't start a business with plans to hire as many people as possible. No... they start a business, hope to grow, and hire more people as the company expands.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/11/eveningnews/main6764731.shtml
http://www.manufacturing.net/Articles/2011/03/Featured-Articles-America-s-Skilled-Worker-Shortage
http://www.qualitydigest.com/inside...-seek-solutions-shortage-skilled-workers.html

This is the reality.

If you want to slack off through life and ignore getting an education (even the crappiest school systems in the U.S. still have something to offer the student who wants it)... then don't expect all of these companies to drop to their knees begging you to work for them when you turn 18.
 
rudder said:
What is that reality? That everyone is owed a job earning $20/hour turning a wrench in a factory? Businesses exist to make money. People don't start a business with plans to hire as many people as possible. No... they start a business, hope to grow, and hire more people as the company expands.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/11/eveningnews/main6764731.shtml
http://www.manufacturing.net/Articles/2011/03/Featured-Articles-America-s-Skilled-Worker-Shortage
http://www.qualitydigest.com/inside...-seek-solutions-shortage-skilled-workers.html

This is the reality.

If you want to slack off through life and ignore getting an education (even the crappiest school systems in the U.S. still have something to offer the student who wants it)... then don't expect all of these companies to drop to their knees begging you to work for them when you turn 18.
Click to expand...


I wonder if the offshoring and laying off of manufacturing people throughout the last decade has driven so many people away from it that they wan't nothing to do with it (meaning skilled people). Anyone with skill is filling other positions now because of past treatment. The only ones left are unskilled folks...and there are indeed plenty of them out there.
 
rudder said:
What is that reality? That everyone is owed a job earning $20/hour turning a wrench in a factory? Businesses exist to make money. People don't start a business with plans to hire as many people as possible. No... they start a business, hope to grow, and hire more people as the company expands.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/11/eveningnews/main6764731.shtml
http://www.manufacturing.net/Articles/2011/03/Featured-Articles-America-s-Skilled-Worker-Shortage
http://www.qualitydigest.com/inside...-seek-solutions-shortage-skilled-workers.html

This is the reality.

If you want to slack off through life and ignore getting an education (even the crappiest school systems in the U.S. still have something to offer the student who wants it)... then don't expect all of these companies to drop to their knees begging you to work for them when you turn 18.
Click to expand...

No today's reality is that Companies are sitting on the sidelines with Billions of cash in reserve while workers are expected to work longer and do twice as much work.
 
Ausm said:
No today's reality is that Companies are sitting on the sidelines with Billions of cash in reserve while workers are expected to work longer and do twice as much work.
Click to expand...

Which companies are sitting around with "billions" in reserve?
 
 
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momeNt said:
It's obvious that there is no convincing you that tariffs are not the answer, they will only tax a very weak US consumer and lower overall demand.
Click to expand...

If it's obvious I can't be convinced then why are you trying? Actually, I can be convinced but you're going to actual provide solid arguments. Your domestic car story is completely unconvincing and largely irrelevant.
 
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