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May 4, 1970 ~ a major turning point in US history

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Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
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Where did I say anything bad about the song??

It is a brilliant song, even if it is in accurate in trying to place blame on Nixon.
But it was Nixon's fault even if he didn't deploy the Guard, he esculated the war by bombing Cambodia and only started to wind down our involvement after the incident at Kent State turned the majority of the country against that horrendous mistake of a war.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
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This^

I was 10 yrs old when that happened. The whole country was nuts. Young people totally out of control, Government incapable of either letting our military win in Vietnam or pulling out of Vietnam. No one capable of finding a common ground. Older generation totally intolerant of the younger generation, Younger generation to immature to compromise on anything. For both sides it was their way or no way. It's a wonder there weren't more Kent State's. It was a time of total selfishness on both sides. Just a matter of time before some scared to death weekend soldier jumped the gun. As a kid I didn't really understand any of it. As an adult I understand to well that we were a country of selfish fools back then. People think that it was some great time of enlightenment but it wasn't. It was punks throwing temper tantrums over not getting their way on everything and older people refusing to listen to anything that didn't agree with their view.
40 years from now there'll be a douchebag in Iran who was 10 years old at the time of the protests against ImAdinnerjacket and the Mullahs who'll say the same thing you just did.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,388
75
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But it was Nixon's fault even if he didn't deploy the Guard, he esculated the war by bombing Cambodia and only started to wind down our involvement after the incident at Kent State turned the majority of the country against that horrendous mistake of a war.
Nice theory. So anytime citizens are upset with a policy pursued by a President they are entitled to not only take to the streets and peaceably protest but to resort to violence and excuse it all by blaming the President and his policy? The facts are that it was not "Tin soldiers and Nixon's Army" but Ohio's National Guardsmen called out by the Ohio governor in response to a request from local authorities that felt they were losing control of a violent situation that resulted in 4 deaths at Kent State. You can deflect to the Vietnam War all you want but opposition to that war does not entitle you to throw rocks and bottles at police and destroy businesses and public property.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
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Nice theory. So anytime citizens are upset with a policy pursued by a President they are entitled to not only take to the streets and peaceably protest but to resort to violence and excuse it all by blaming the President and his policy? The facts are that it was not "Tin soldiers and Nixon's Army" but Ohio's National Guardsmen called out by the Ohio governor in response to a request from local authorities that felt they were losing control of a violent situation that resulted in 4 deaths at Kent State. You can deflect to the Vietnam War all you want but opposition to that war does not entitle you to throw rocks and bottles at police and destroy businesses and public property.
Nope but it shouldn't result in them getting shot down in the streets, especially if they weren't the ones throwing the rocks and bottles which was the case of those killed and injured at K State.

If there hadn't of been a draft, young men forced to fight a corrupt war brought on by old men, there might not have been so much outrage among the nations youth at the time.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
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For those claiming this wasn't a big deal, you really had to live through that time to understand symbolicaly just how important it was. Through the counter culture revolution and civil rights movements of the sixties a large part of the younger citizens of the US truly believed a transformative change had taken place giving them a greater voice and irreversible freedoms, but on that one day in May 1970 it all came crashing down and it felt like the rug had been pulled from under our feet.
I have to read the article first and the kids shouldn't have been shot at, but I see many of America's current problems started in the 60s and 70s where these idiots "spoke their mind", smoked weed and didn't do shit.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
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I have to read the article first and the kids shouldn't have been shot at, but I see many of America's current problems started in the 60s and 70s where these idiots "spoke their mind", smoked weed and didn't do shit.
Like create the technology for idiots li9ke you to speak your mind on this forum?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
460
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But it was Nixon's fault even if he didn't deploy the Guard, he esculated the war by bombing Cambodia and only started to wind down our involvement after the incident at Kent State turned the majority of the country against that horrendous mistake of a war.
I see. Johnson and Kennedy aren't mentioned, but Kent State is Nixon's fault because he "escalated the war", even though Nixon is the president that knuckled under to the left and ended the war. The blindingly obvious comparison would then be that any protest-oriented violence today would be Obama's fault because he "escalated" Afghanistan, but I doubt you'll be coming to that same analogous conclusion. On the positive side, your brain cells should be just like new under that coating of dust, since you're not using them. At all.

A cursory examination of the free and prosperous South Korea versus the grinding poverty and oppression of North Korea and all of Viet Nam should point out exactly what a "horrendous mistake" that war was. But hey, everybody knows freedom and prosperity are for white people, right?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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But it was Nixon's fault even if he didn't deploy the Guard, he esculated the war by bombing Cambodia and only started to wind down our involvement after the incident at Kent State turned the majority of the country against that horrendous mistake of a war.
So the Oklahoma City bombing was Clinton's fault because he allowed Waco to happen?
 
Feb 16, 2005
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I wouldn't go that far, IMO the Guardsman were just scared kids, about the same age as the Protestors, who were not trained for such situations and with real lack of leadership panicked and fired.
That about sums it up. The Guardsman were wrong in firing, no doubt, but were untrained and pretty freaked out.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
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I see. Johnson and Kennedy aren't mentioned, but Kent State is Nixon's fault because he "escalated the war", even though Nixon is the president that knuckled under to the left and ended the war. The blindingly obvious comparison would then be that any protest-oriented violence today would be Obama's fault because he "escalated" Afghanistan, but I doubt you'll be coming to that same analogous conclusion.
On the contrary, if there was a growing sentiment by the majority that the war in Afghanistan was wrong and unjust and Obama ignored it and escalated the conflict by invading Pakistan he'd be responsible for the consequences at home and abroad.

BTW I didn't absolve Kennedy or Johnson, especially Johnson.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,388
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On the contrary, if there was a growing sentiment by the majority that the war in Afghanistan was wrong and unjust and Obama ignored it and escalated the conflict by invading Pakistan he'd be responsible for the consequences at home and abroad.

BTW I didn't absolve Kennedy or Johnson, especially Johnson.
No but you did absolve the violence used by anti-Vietnam protestors and that is the point of contention. You maintain that if Obama takes a course of action in Pakistan that opposes majority opinion then violence in the streets is his fault rather than the persons responsible for the violence. :rolleyes: There is a majority sentiment against that the health care bill just passed despite poll after poll showing the majority in opposition. Are you saying that we could now stage protests and break windows, throw rocks and bottles at law enforcement officers, and it is justified because the majority opposes the policy? Or is there some magic double standard that only the enlightened can understand regarding peaceful vs violent protests?
 
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QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
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So the Oklahoma City bombing was Clinton's fault because he allowed Waco to happen?
Speaking of which, I still find trained federal government law enforcement besieging, using military vehicles and tactics, and eventually murdering - by burning to death - 60+ people, based on an unsubstantiated rumor is far more offensive then young national guard volunteers shooting at a bunch of violent rioters.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
460
126
On the contrary, if there was a growing sentiment by the majority that the war in Afghanistan was wrong and unjust and Obama ignored it and escalated the conflict by invading Pakistan he'd be responsible for the consequences at home and abroad.

BTW I didn't absolve Kennedy or Johnson, especially Johnson.
Obama IS bombing Pakistan, idiot. I realize you are easily blinded by his awesomeness, but surely you've not missed the whining about it on the left. The fact that a majority do not think the war in Afghanistan is due only to your side's failure to so convince them, not for lack of trying.

Nixon bombed North Vietnamese bases in Cambodia (and a joint US/Viet force invaded) because the North Vietnamese had invaded Cambodia and set up a large complex of bases, which due to idiots on the left we were not able to attack. North Vietnamese troops were able to slip across the border and launch attacks, conscript Vietnamese or Yards, or extort rice, then slip back before US military forces were able to respond. Failure to attack those bases in Cambodia was, with the exception of McNamara's Wall, the dumbest thing we did in a war full of dumb things. The Commies also trained, paid and equipped Communist bands in an attempt to overthrow the Cambodian government, so large parts of Cambodia were off-limits to the Cambodian government and the Cambodian people living in those areas were subject to terror, extortion, murder and conscription as workers and bearers for North Vietnamese. Perhaps you remember the Khmer Rouge and the Killing Fields - Cambodia had an even worse experience with Communism than did (and does) Vietnam. The Cooper-Church Amendment made sure no US aid or arms reached the Cambodian government, whereas leftists within the USA made sure that the North Vietnamese could safely funnel Soviet and ChiCom arms to the Kmher Rouge. Your side's success directly led to more than a million human beings, the vast majority of whom had committed no offense beyond being educated or of the wrong ethnic background, being executed directly or indirectly through a combination of starvation and forced labor. Truly it was one of the Red movement's greatest moments. Take a moment to savor the triumph before you inevitably blame America.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Obama IS bombing Pakistan, idiot. .
What part of " if there was a growing sentiment by the majority that the war in Afghanistan was wrong and unjust and Obama ignored it and escalated the conflict by invading Pakistan he'd be responsible for the consequences at home and abroad." didn't you understand you red assed sniveling little vag?
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
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Obama IS bombing Pakistan, idiot. I realize you are easily blinded by his awesomeness, but surely you've not missed the whining about it on the left. The fact that a majority do not think the war in Afghanistan is due only to your side's failure to so convince them, not for lack of trying.

Nixon bombed North Vietnamese bases in Cambodia (and a joint US/Viet force invaded) because the North Vietnamese had invaded Cambodia and set up a large complex of bases, which due to idiots on the left we were not able to attack. North Vietnamese troops were able to slip across the border and launch attacks, conscript Vietnamese or Yards, or extort rice, then slip back before US military forces were able to respond. Failure to attack those bases in Cambodia was, with the exception of McNamara's Wall, the dumbest thing we did in a war full of dumb things. The Commies also trained, paid and equipped Communist bands in an attempt to overthrow the Cambodian government, so large parts of Cambodia were off-limits to the Cambodian government and the Cambodian people living in those areas were subject to terror, extortion, murder and conscription as workers and bearers for North Vietnamese. Perhaps you remember the Khmer Rouge and the Killing Fields - Cambodia had an even worse experience with Communism than did (and does) Vietnam. The Cooper-Church Amendment made sure no US aid or arms reached the Cambodian government, whereas leftists within the USA made sure that the North Vietnamese could safely funnel Soviet and ChiCom arms to the Kmher Rouge. Your side's success directly led to more than a million human beings, the vast majority of whom had committed no offense beyond being educated or of the wrong ethnic background, being executed directly or indirectly through a combination of starvation and forced labor. Truly it was one of the Red movement's greatest moments. Take a moment to savor the triumph before you inevitably blame America.
nixon got us out of Nam . Johnson the asswipe got us in further . Kennedy was going to get us our . Than he was murdered . Find out Johnsons relationship with Bell the Helocopter company . Dam .
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
460
126
What part of " if there was a growing sentiment by the majority that the war in Afghanistan was wrong and unjust and Obama ignored it and escalated the conflict by invading Pakistan he'd be responsible for the consequences at home and abroad." didn't you understand you red assed sniveling little vag?
None of it, just pointing out that it's a typical twisted dodge attempting to justify your loony and dishonest viewpoint that a Republican who got us OUT of a war started by a Democrat and greatly expanded by another Democrat is the real villain of the war. Thou art mentally deficient and/or mentally dishonest in thy indignation.

Nemesis, I've read that Kennedy would have gotten us out and that he would have gotten us in deeper, and I have no confidence which is true had he not been assassinated. Kennedy was both a believer in freedom and a waffler, and I have no idea which way he would have jumped. The only thing that can be said for certain is that Nixon got us out and that he did it by losing, setting an image of America as beatable by simple endurance and abandoning millions of human beings to the most barbaric system of government available in the twentieth century.
 
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JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,119
498
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What part of " if there was a growing sentiment by the majority that the war in Afghanistan was wrong and unjust and Obama ignored it and escalated the conflict by invading Pakistan he'd be responsible for the consequences at home and abroad." didn't you understand you red assed sniveling little vag?
lol
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,182
635
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It amazes me how much press school shootings get today but it wasn't too long ago that our own government shot and killed students, American Citizens, at a state university in this country.
 

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