[maximumPC] Nvidia Tom and Rev interview on Contracts, Gsync + more

[Leadbox]

I see what you did there, but the situations are not symmetric. You can't just flip the names and have the same story. Note that I'm not objecting to Mantle being proprietary, just explaining to people that it *is* proprietary.

You clearly seem to think that I have this awful evil bad bias against AMD and in favor of Nvidia, but that's just not the case. I am not pretending Nvidia is a saint. What I am saying is that AMD has moved from trying to beat their competition to trying to smear their competition by lying.

Nonsense, some here (I won't mention names) are bringing up the situation with mantle as some kind of counter point or argument to AMDs' concerns and issues with Gameworks, drawing all sorts of weird parallels with the two.

 

[Mand]

Nonsense, some here (I won't mention names) are bringing up the situation with mantle as some kind of counter point or argument to AMDs' concerns and issues with Gameworks, drawing all sorts of weird parallels with the two.

There are a lot of parallels. They're both proprietary software packages designed to be used by developers to implement things. Where the parallel breaks is that for some reason, some here (I won't mention names) seem to think that Mantle isn't proprietary, and that AMD isn't itself doing the things it's whining about Nvidia doing.

The reality is that they're both doing it, and it's fine. It's how competition works. It's how new products actually get into our hands.

But the idea that when Nvidia does it they're this evil horrible money-grubbing corporate empire that's out to hurt everyone but their pocketbook while when AMD does it it's just this grand conspiracy to make AMD look bad and they're really the savior of all gamers everywhere is just absurd. Yet, that's what gets attention.

 

[Stuka87]

There are a lot of parallels. They're both proprietary software packages designed to be used by developers to implement things. Where the parallel breaks is that for some reason, some here (I won't mention names) seem to think that Mantle isn't proprietary, and that AMD isn't itself doing the things it's whining about Nvidia doing.

The reality is that they're both doing it, and it's fine. It's how competition works. It's how new products actually get into our hands.

But the idea that when Nvidia does it they're this evil horrible money-grubbing corporate empire that's out to hurt everyone but their pocketbook while when AMD does it it's just this grand conspiracy to make AMD look bad and they're really the savior of all gamers everywhere is just absurd. Yet, that's what gets attention.

No, the difference is that Mantle does not effect DirectX performance at all. Every other GPU runs exactly the same regardless if Mantle is there or not. Gameworks however directly alters the performance of DirectX for EVERY SINGLE GPU. THATS the difference.

As for Mantle being proprietary, we have explained this to you multiple times. Just because something is open does not mean it is not proprietary. We listed many examples, DDR memory for instance. It is completely proprietary with many patents held for it. But it is open for anybody to use free of charge. Once Mantle hits 1.0 and is released, AMD has stated that it will then become available for others to use. I know you keep saying if nVidia uses it, AMD will purposely change it to break it. But AMD has never once done this, there is no precedent for it (And there are plenty of technologies that nVidia licenses from AMD, and vice versa). Not to mention you cannot just quickly change a whole framework easily.

 

[Techhog]

There are a lot of parallels. They're both proprietary software packages designed to be used by developers to implement things. Where the parallel breaks is that for some reason, some here (I won't mention names) seem to think that Mantle isn't proprietary, and that AMD isn't itself doing the things it's whining about Nvidia doing.

The reality is that they're both doing it, and it's fine. It's how competition works. It's how new products actually get into our hands.

But the idea that when Nvidia does it they're this evil horrible money-grubbing corporate empire that's out to hurt everyone but their pocketbook while when AMD does it it's just this grand conspiracy to make AMD look bad and they're really the savior of all gamers everywhere is just absurd. Yet, that's what gets attention.

You still need to show examples of games which have Mantle and run poorly on Nvidia cards in DirectX.

 

[Mand]

You still need to show examples of games which have Mantle and run poorly on Nvidia cards in DirectX.

...Why?

I'm not claiming that it does.

 

[Techhog]

...Why?

I'm not claiming that it does.

Because your claim of AMD being hypocritical doesn't work otherwise.

Also, you keep flip-flopping between saying that they're equally bad and saying that AMD is worse.

 

[Mand]

Because your claim of AMD being hypocritical doesn't work otherwise.

Also, you keep flip-flopping between saying that they're equally bad and saying that AMD is worse.

How so? My claim of AMD being hypocritical is in regards to TressFX, not Mantle.

AMD is worse when they lie about their competition rather than develop a competing product.

At least get my actual position straight before you start attacking it.

 

[Techhog]

How so? My claim of AMD being hypocritical is in regards to TressFX, not Mantle.

AMD is worse when they lie about their competition rather than develop a competing product.

At least get my actual position straight before you start attacking it.

Mantle proves that they don't do that anymore, so the past is irrelevant.

There's a difference between lying and saying something which hasn't been definitively proven. Nvidia isn't even directly denying it.

 

[Mand]

Mantle proves that they don't do that anymore, so the past is irrelevant.

lol

Seriously?

There's a difference between lying and saying something which hasn't been definitively proven. Nvidia isn't even directly denying it.

AMD has lied a lot in recent months, about several different things. Much of their Gameworks allegations are flat-out false, such as not providing code samples (they're on Nvidia's website and have been for a long time). Beyond that, virtually every claim they've ever said about FreeSync and G-Sync has been a lie, including not one but two demos that were complete fabrications and did not show what they claimed they were showing.

AMD has been proven to be lying in these cases.

 

[Despoiler]

There are a lot of parallels. They're both proprietary software packages designed to be used by developers to implement things. Where the parallel breaks is that for some reason, some here (I won't mention names) seem to think that Mantle isn't proprietary, and that AMD isn't itself doing the things it's whining about Nvidia doing.

The reality is that they're both doing it, and it's fine. It's how competition works. It's how new products actually get into our hands.

But the idea that when Nvidia does it they're this evil horrible money-grubbing corporate empire that's out to hurt everyone but their pocketbook while when AMD does it it's just this grand conspiracy to make AMD look bad and they're really the savior of all gamers everywhere is just absurd. Yet, that's what gets attention.

Your comments use false equivalence combined with straw man, both being logical fallacies.

 

[Mand]

Your comments use false equivalence combined with straw man, both being logical fallacies.

I bow before the weight of your counterargument, replete with supporting evidence, thorough analysis, and in-depth treatment.

Or, not, because you didn't do any of that, and instead are just trying to shout me away.

 

[Techhog]

lol

Seriously?



AMD has lied a lot in recent months, about several different things. Much of their Gameworks allegations are flat-out false, such as not providing code samples (they're on Nvidia's website and have been for a long time). Beyond that, virtually every claim they've ever said about FreeSync and G-Sync has been a lie, including not one but two demos that were complete fabrications and did not show what they claimed they were showing.

AMD has been proven to be lying in these cases.

We should get rid of jails and just execute every criminal. People don't change, even if they seem to have changed.

Weren't the code claims about the code for the games not getting to AMD until after the games are complete? That's the big issue here, and imo is worse than lying. Unless those are proven false, what Nvidia may be doing has far worse implications, even if both companies are considered equally bad.

 

[Despoiler]

I bow before the weight of your counterargument, replete with supporting evidence, thorough analysis, and in-depth treatment.

Or, not, because you didn't do any of that, and instead are just trying to shout me away.

Lol now you've used the burden of proof logical fallacy.

 

[frozentundra123456]

You still need to show examples of games which have Mantle and run poorly on Nvidia cards in DirectX.

How about BF4? That game was a disaster for months on cards from either manufacturer though, so I am not saying it shows bias. In fact according to Toms Hardware at least as recently as a couple weeks ago there was still an issue with mantle giving worse performance than DX on cards with less than 4gb of vram.

 

[Techhog]

How about BF4? That game was a disaster for months on cards from either manufacturer though, so I am not saying it shows bias. In fact according to Toms Hardware at least as recently as a couple weeks ago there was still an issue with mantle giving worse performance than DX on cards with less than 4gb of vram.

That game had problems because it was a full-price beta. Nothing could have saved it other than more time.

 

[Mand]

That game had problems because it was a full-price beta. Nothing could have saved it other than more time.

It's almost as if the efforts of the developer matter way more and completely dwarf the contribution that the presence or absence of a particular feature makes.

Hmm....

 

[Techhog]

It's almost as if the efforts of the developer matter way more and completely dwarf the contribution that the presence or absence of a particular feature makes.

Hmm....

You really think that Mantle was the cause of all of the problems? Good one. If you're going to start reaching like this, I'm done lol

 

[Mand]

You really think that Mantle was the cause of all of the problems? Good one. If you're going to start reaching like this, I'm done lol

......

How you can read a thing, and think it says the opposite of what it says, I cannot understand.

I said the exact opposite of "Mantle was the cause of all of the problems." Read it again, and try again.

 

[Techhog]

......

How you can read a thing, and think it says the opposite of what it says, I cannot understand.

I said the exact opposite of "Mantle was the cause of all of the problems."

Oh, I thought you were criticizing the choice to use Mantle in the first place. Either way, it's an irrelevant issue. Unlike the Gameworks games, BF4's issues were related to the game itself. The fact that AMD only needed a driver update to fix their problems in Watch Dogs supports the claim that they received source code late. Trying to use BF4 to support your point is silly, since its issues are completely unrelated.

 

[Mand]

Oh, I thought you were criticizing the choice to use Mantle in the first place. Either way, it's an irrelevant issue. Unlike the Gameworks games, BF4's issues were related to the game itself. The fact that AMD only needed a driver update to fix their problems in Watch Dogs supports the claim that they received source code late. Trying to use BF4 to support your point is silly, since its issues are completely unrelated.

...good thing I'm not using BF4 to support my point then?

Seriously, you are having some major reading comprehension issues with my posts.

 

[Leadbox]

There are a lot of parallels. They're both proprietary software packages designed to be used by developers to implement things. Where the parallel breaks is that for some reason, some here (I won't mention names) seem to think that Mantle isn't proprietary, and that AMD isn't itself doing the things it's whining about Nvidia doing.

The reality is that they're both doing it, and it's fine. It's how competition works. It's how new products actually get into our hands.

But the idea that when Nvidia does it they're this evil horrible money-grubbing corporate empire that's out to hurt everyone but their pocketbook while when AMD does it it's just this grand conspiracy to make AMD look bad and they're really the savior of all gamers everywhere is just absurd. Yet, that's what gets attention.

Mantle cannot harm nvidia in any way, if you're going to be drawing parallels it would have to be with cuda and stuff like physX. Middlewares like gameworks that cannot be optimized are not what you want to be drawing your comparisons with.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I've said it before but I doubt people care. The reason nvidia didn't get tress fx before hand is because they weren't part of the NDA that probably went along with it. Once the technology was released and the NDA was no longer necessary then nvidia was able to optimize for it.

 

[Techhog]

...good thing I'm not using BF4 to support my point then?

Seriously, you are having some major reading comprehension issues with my posts.

Your point isn't well explained, then. Restate it without the sarcasm.

 

[f1sherman]

I've said it before but I doubt people care. The reason nvidia didn't get tress fx before hand is because they weren't part of the NDA that probably went along with it. Once the technology was released and the NDA was no longer necessary then nvidia was able to optimize for it.

Who the hell gives the source code of their entire current stack anyway?

It's easy to ask your rich neighbor to put his entire lifework (CUDA, PhysX, Gameworks, G-sync) in communal trust, when all you have are bits and pieces (TressFX, A-sync, Bullet)

And the one worthy thing you do have (Mantle) - you'll share it when it's "ready".
I.e. when it becomes basically worthless due to DX12.

 

[Mand]

Your point isn't well explained, then. Restate it without the sarcasm.

There hasn't been any sarcasm in my posts. If you think there is, that's your issue.