[maximumPC] Nvidia Tom and Rev interview on Contracts, Gsync + more

[BrightCandle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG2kIUerD4c#t=6170

Highlights for me were:
- Nvidia does not have contracts in place stopping games developers from optimising their games for the competitors cards. But they wont show the contracts.
- Nvidia sends in the engineers that work on using Nvidia specific features, so its not the games company developers doing the integration of this stuff. So TXAA will be added by an Nvidia engineer.
- They asked how often gameworks developers get source code. They didn't answer the question. They added more detail about gameworks like the binaries are free and some of their partners the source is also free.
- Mantle - Nvidia isn't convinced by the benefits on "hardware that matters". However they do think we will see the benefits on DX12, which is very two faced comment.
- Mantle - They also mention with low level APIS we will loose the benefits of new hardware that is radically different and hence loosing compatibility with older games. They aren't sure what happens with multiple generations of cards, maybe its a constantly changing API. On consoles you have it for a long time, but not on the PC.
- Mantle is not true openness.
- Nvidia engineers don't just add their features when they go into game companies, they also optimise general DirectX use which helps their competitor as well.
- Gsync does NOT have 1 frame of latency, its a lookaside buffer
- Tom direct calls Huddy a liar, he repeats quite a few times. He also says he wont come into that chair and lie to the interviewers.

+ loads more

Highly recommended watch

 

[Grooveriding]

Whole thing came off as an advert for nvidia with a lot of double talk and some question dodging.

This guy is a PR guy for nvidia though, so what else to expect but lots of empty PR and BS. Can't trust a word any of these PR guys say, most of it is lies and spin.

 

[3DVagabond]

- Nvidia does not have contracts in place stopping games developers from optimising their games for the competitors cards. But they wont show the contracts.
- Nvidia sends in the engineers that work on using Nvidia specific features, so its not the games company developers doing the integration of this stuff. So TXAA will be added by an Nvidia engineer.

The claim from Huddy was the devs weren't allowed to share code with AMD so they could optimize their drivers for Gameworks. So, unless they denied that they didn't deny anything. And if it's nVidia engineers adding their own features then there is no way AMD is able to optimize their drivers for it, or even have 3rd party assurance that there's no funny business going on.

 

[Silverforce11]

I don't understand the angle you are coming from @ Groove & 3DVaga, why are you against NV pushing their advantage with Gameworks, (or PhysX, Tessellation etc etc).

If you guys dislike the way NV goes about competing in business (Gameworks IS intended to crush AMD on NV sponsored games, no point denying that!), you need to vote with your wallet and stop giving them $$.

As long as you guys are packing 780ti SLI etc, NV obviously feel like they are doing it right and will keep pushing harder. Surely, games that run great or looks better on their hardware benefits their users, no?

 

[Grooveriding]

I don't care about Gameworks one way or the other as far as gaming goes for me. I was referring to all the back and forth between them and AMD over gsync, Mantle and the way gameworks interacts with game developers. It's all marketing and hogwash listening to their portrayals of it all.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

Almost 2 hours, damn.

Anyway, Huddy already destroyed his credibility when he outright lied about gsync having an extra frame of latency, so I'm not going to watch a ridiculously long nvidia response to him. + shield tablet promoting, couldn't care less about tablet gaming.

 

[3DVagabond]

I don't understand the angle you are coming from @ Groove & 3DVaga, why are you against NV pushing their advantage with Gameworks, (or PhysX, Tessellation etc etc).

If you guys dislike the way NV goes about competing in business (Gameworks IS intended to crush AMD on NV sponsored games, no point denying that!), you need to vote with your wallet and stop giving them $$.

As long as you guys are packing 780ti SLI etc, NV obviously feel like they are doing it right and will keep pushing harder. Surely, games that run great or looks better on their hardware benefits their users, no?

Well, I don't own nVidia (I have, but not now) and I'm not a high roller anyway. I'll let Grooveriding speak for himself, but he can own nVidia and still post without brand bias.

IMO, as far as nVidia pushing their advantage. If they really had one then they wouldn't have to constantly lock their competitor out and hide what they are doing like they do. Everyone complains that TressFX, for example runs like dog on nVidia. AMD has released the source code for it though and nVidia can optimize their drivers without working blind. And while Mantle only runs on AMD GCN hardware you still have the DX renderpath that nVidia can run through without Mantle possibly adversely affecting the performance. Gameworks is always in the render path. IF there's anything about it that makes AMD hardware run poorly, there's nothing someone with an AMD card can do to get around it and it's hidden from AMD to know how to fix it. You also see AMD sponsored titles support DX11 multithreading. A feature that only nVidia supports and AMD doesn't lock it out of games they sponsor, even though they get no performance advantage and nVidia does.

 

[sontin]

The claim from Huddy was the devs weren't allowed to share code with AMD so they could optimize their drivers for Gameworks.

Wrong, Huddy claimed that Devs have no access to the source code of the Gamework libaries.
That nVidia doesnt share their source code with AMD or let developers to it was never in question. They even said that...

Oh and Huddy lied about G-Sync and Tomb Raider.

Wow. Did he say the truth about anything?!

/edit: And the other PR guy who said that nVidia prevent developers from working together with AMD.

 

[3DVagabond]

Wrong, Huddy claimed that Devs have no access to the source code of the Gamework libaries.
That nVidia doesnt share their source code with AMD or let developers to it was never in question. They even said that...

Oh and Huddy lied about G-Sync and Tomb Raider.

Wow. Did he say the truth about anything?!

/edit: And the other PR guy who said that nVidia prevent developers from working together with AMD.

You must have missed he follow ups to the original interview. The only thing of those that he didn't admit to being wrong about was Gsync. While he's guilty of speaking without having all of the facts, which I agree is inexcusable in the context, saying he was lying isn't accurate. And the release of the gameworks source code was done for certain devs, not all and certainly not publicly, it wasn't done that way originally. Huddy said he saw contracts and that was the case.

Again, he was wrong to speak without having the facts, dead wrong, but that's not the same thing as lying.

 

[iiiankiii]

I don't understand the angle you are coming from @ Groove & 3DVaga, why are you against NV pushing their advantage with Gameworks, (or PhysX, Tessellation etc etc).

If you guys dislike the way NV goes about competing in business (Gameworks IS intended to crush AMD on NV sponsored games, no point denying that!), you need to vote with your wallet and stop giving them $$.

As long as you guys are packing 780ti SLI etc, NV obviously feel like they are doing it right and will keep pushing harder. Surely, games that run great or looks better on their hardware benefits their users, no?

The thing is, I'm not brand loyal. I will buy the gpu that will give me the best performance with the best features. If Gameworks end up heavily benefiting Nvidia's GPUs, I would have no choice but pick them over AMD's GPUs. In the end, I only want what's best for me, the gamer. I don't care what company brings it.

The glaring problem with the success of Gameworks is, inevitably, the decline in the competition. As we all know, with lack of competition, prices scour and we, the consumers, ultimately lose. That's what I'm afraid of most. That's why there is conflicting interest regarding Gameworks from my point of view. Nvidia already demands a price premium for their GPUs for the same performance. Imagine the insane prices on their GPUs when Nvidia clearly conquers the performance throne. No wait....no need to imagine (points to Titan series).

To be fair, AMD would be doing the same if they have the clear advantage.

 

[sontin]

You must have missed he follow ups to the original interview.

The follow up where he admit that he lied?
Simple. He went out and claimed that TressFX was released prio the launch of Tomb Raider. A lie is still lie even when you apologize for it.

The only thing of those that he didn't admit to being wrong about was Gsync. While he's guilty of speaking without having all of the facts, which I agree is inexcusable in the context, saying he was lying isn't accurate.

He said that G-Sync introduces a one-frame-lag. How would this be not a lie when it isn't true?

And the release of the gameworks source code was done for certain devs, not all and certainly not publicly, it wasn't done that way originally. Huddy said he saw contracts and that was the case.

Huddy saw the one-frame-lag introduced by G-Sync and that TressFX was released prio TR. And nVidia said that devs have the choice to get the source code.

Again, he was wrong to speak without having the facts, dead wrong, but that's not the same thing as lying.

noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood. Synonyms: prevarication, falsification. Antonyms: truth.

2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.

3. an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.

4. the charge or accusation of telling a lie: He flung the lie back at his accusers.


verb (used without object), lied, ly·ing. 5. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive. Synonyms: prevaricate, fib.

6. to express what is false; convey a false impression.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

The whole section about Mantle is pure brilliance.

Then again, in a PR war, no one pulls any punches, no matter how ridiculous one might sound.

 

[3DVagabond]

The follow up where he admit that he lied?
Simple. He went out and claimed that TressFX was released prio the launch of Tomb Raider. A lie is still lie even when you apologize for it.



He said that G-Sync introduces a one-frame-lag. How would this be not a lie when it isn't true?



Huddy saw the one-frame-lag introduced by G-Sync and that TressFX was released prio TR. And nVidia said that devs have the choice to get the source code.




http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie

I explained the difference and your smart dictionary post doesn't change what I said. You need to improve your reading comprehension.

Now, rather than you repeating yourself again with stuff that doesn't address the OP, just drop it. You've had your say. I'd like to move on to what was in the article instead of thread derailing that's just going to get the thread locked, like so many in the past.

 

[desprado]

edited.....

 

[Leadbox]

I said before and will say again in this forum some guys love to defend AMD no matter what and they think that they are very smart and knowledgeable even more than Nvidia and AMD so it is hopeless to argue.

You could swap AMD for nVidia in you post there and immediately see you've added nothing to the discussion with that post. Nothing.

 

[Stuka87]

He basically confirmed that its impossible for AMD to optimize their drivers for gameworks related functions. Not even the game developers know what is going on if an nVidia engineer is the one implementing everything.

I am really curious to hear what nVidia did to get the developer to go along with this.

 

[Mand]

The claim from Huddy was the devs weren't allowed to share code with AMD so they could optimize their drivers for Gameworks. So, unless they denied that they didn't deny anything. And if it's nVidia engineers adding their own features then there is no way AMD is able to optimize their drivers for it, or even have 3rd party assurance that there's no funny business going on.

The devs can share their code with AMD. They can't share Nvidia's code.

AMD claimed that the devs can't share their code with AMD, which is false.
AMD claimed that the devs are prohibited from seeing Gameworks code, which is false.

I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand.

 

[96Firebird]

While he's guilty of speaking without having all of the facts, which I agree is inexcusable in the context, saying he was lying isn't accurate.

LOL.

So if I say something that is wrong without having all the facts, and that turns out to be false, I didn't lie?

 

[Mand]

The glaring problem with the success of Gameworks is, inevitably, the decline in the competition. As we all know, with lack of competition, prices scour and we, the consumers, ultimately lose. That's what I'm afraid of most. That's why there is conflicting interest regarding Gameworks from my point of view. Nvidia already demands a price premium for their GPUs for the same performance. Imagine the insane prices on their GPUs when Nvidia clearly conquers the performance throne. No wait....no need to imagine (points to Titan series).

To be fair, AMD would be doing the same if they have the clear advantage.

And it's not Nvidia's fault that AMD is dropping the ball. The proper response to Gameworks is to come up with something as good or better, not whine and moan when your competitor doesn't let you piggyback on their products.

 

[Mand]

LOL.

So if I say something that is wrong without having all the facts, and that turns out to be false, I didn't lie?

To be fair, a lie implies intent. Simply telling a false statement is not the same as lying. I think it's pretty fair to establish that intent, though, based on the comments made, the public nature, the attempt to smear their competition, and their history over the last several months about lying about Nvidia products when they can't develop a legitimate response.

 

[sontin]

But there is a difference:
He said that Freesync is better than G-Sync because G-Sync introduces an extra one frame lag because of the buffer in the monitor. I expect from such a statement that he has all the facts about G-Sync to make such a claim.
Fact is: He lied.

He said that AMD will never hide new techniques from the competition when they are implementing these into games and they will give them access prio the launch - see TressFX and Tomb Raider. I expect from such a statement that he hass all the facts about the timeline.
Fact is: He lied.

And it was AMD who has been on a marketing crusade on their own. So if he is going out to the public i expect that he knows what is true and false.

 

[Stuka87]

And it's not Nvidia's fault that AMD is dropping the ball. The proper response to Gameworks is to come up with something as good or better, not whine and moan when your competitor doesn't let you piggyback on their products.

This would be the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen for gamers. And the fact that you suggest this makes me wonder if you actually grasp what would happen to the market.

If every company had their own proprietary code paths we would end up with games that run terribly for everybody. Because nVidia cards would run poorly on AMD code paths, and AMD cards would run poorly on nVidia code paths. Or we would end up with games that only work on one make of card.

There is NOTHING good about gameworks from a gamers perspective. It does not make games run better nVidia (they run worse), and it hurts the other half of the market with AMD and Intel GPU's as they have no way to optimize their drivers for those code paths.

 

[Mand]

This would be the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen for gamers. And the fact that you suggest this makes me wonder if you actually grasp what would happen to the market.

If every company had their own proprietary code paths we would end up with games that run terrible for everybody. Because nVidia cards would run poorly on AMD code paths, and AMD cards would run poorly on nVidia code paths. Or we would end up with games that only work on one make of card.

There is NOTHING good about gameworks from a gamers perspective. It does not make games run better nVidia (they run worse), and it hurts the other half of the market with AMD and Intel GPU's as they have no way to optimize their drivers for those code paths.

And how good will it be for gamers when the companies don't make improvements because there is no financial incentive for them to spend millions of dollars and years of engineering time in order to develop new features and capabilities?

Again, the claim that titles that use Gameworks can't be optimized for AMD is false. Stop repeating it.

 

[Stuka87]

And how good will it be for gamers when the companies don't make improvements because there is no financial incentive for them to spend millions of dollars and years of engineering time in order to develop new features and capabilities?

Again, the claim that titles that use Gameworks can't be optimized for AMD is false. Stop repeating it.

Ok, then explain to us how AMD/Intel are supposed to optimize their drivers when they do not have any access to the source? They have access to the source for games themselves, but not nVidias closed binaries.

 

[Mand]

Ok, then explain to us how AMD/Intel are supposed to optimize their drivers when they do not have any access to the source? They have access to the source for games themselves, but not nVidias closed binaries.

Too bad?

Gameworks is Nvidia IP. No, their competitors don't get access to it. If they want to have comparable performance, then they need to either generate their own IP or learn how to optimize what they have access to. Nvidia is under no obligation whatsoever to give away their IP to their competitors, and it is wrong for you to ask them to.

Not all devs themselves even choose to get access to Gameworks source code. How in the hell do they do optimizations for anything at that point? The same way they always do, in the same ways that all games do. AMD can optimize for games that use Gameworks, as evidenced by the recent AMD driver update for Watch Dogs that dramatically improved performance. If optimization is so impossible, how did they do it?