Matter with negative mass created

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,697
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I will need some good man to link it because im on my phone.

Couple things before you go ape-faeces on this: first, it still has mass but it BEHAVES as if it had negative mass.

Second, this is still a massive discovery. The one thing needed for real FTL travel is negative mass.

I haveno idea yet what this experiment implies, but if anything will ever have us exploring the stars, it will likely come out of this.

Merge if already posted, didnt find it in p&n or ot.
 

cbrunny

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2007
6,791
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https://phys.org/news/2017-04-physicists-negative-mass.html

Washington State University physicists have created a fluid with negative mass, which is exactly what it sounds like. Push it, and unlike every physical object in the world we know, it doesn't accelerate in the direction it was pushed. It accelerates backwards.

The phenomenon is rarely created in laboratory conditions and can be used to explore some of the more challenging concepts of the cosmos, said Michael Forbes, a WSU assistant professor of physics and astronomy and an affiliate assistant professor at the University of Washington. The research appears today in the journal Physical Review Letters, where it is featured as an "Editor's Suggestion."

Hypothetically, matter can have negative mass in the same sense that an electric charge can be either negative or positive. People rarely think in these terms, and our everyday world sees only the positive aspects of Isaac Newton's Second Law of Motion, in which a force is equal to the mass of an object times its acceleration, or F=ma.In other words, if you push an object, it will accelerate in the direction you're pushing it. Mass will accelerate in the direction of the force.

"That's what most things that we're used to do," said Forbes, hinting at the bizarreness to come. "With negative mass, if you push something, it accelerates toward you."



Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-04-physicists-negative-mass.html#jCp

If anyone is wondering, I submit to you that Salty's real identity is Michael Forbes. But why?
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,697
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jesus guys.someone starts a crap thread about aliens and "what if the sun if a black hole", and it evolves into a 15 page thread about propulsion methods.
then we have an actual groundbreaking invention, and you are all taking the piss.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,574
7,672
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Matter with negative mass has been created before no? Just now they have more control over it?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,417
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Matter with negative mass has been created before no? Just now they have more control over it?

Based on the paper, a similar effect has been observed under different experimental conditions, however the conclusion of negative mass was in question due to the nature of the experiment and the materials used. With their experiment they appear to be proving that the effect is 'natural' (within the context of the experimental intent) and not caused by the materials themselves. Please note that I only understand the words below, not the full meaning.

A similar effect has been reported in optical lattices near the edge of the Brillouin zone [22,23,35]. These self-trapping effects in lattices have been attributed to several different phenomena. One, based on a Josephson effect with suppressed tunneling between neighboring sites [23,32], was predicted from a variational framework [36]. Another explanation is that the sharp boundary is a “gap soliton” [37], though this explanation is disputed by Ref. [32] on the basis that solitons should remain stable whereas the latter observed self-trapping only for a finite period of time. Finally, self-trapping has been explained in terms of the Peierls-Nabarro energy barrier [38]. In all of these cases, the self-trapping occurs where the effective mass becomes negative, but the interpretation of the self-trapping effect in optical lattices is complicated by the presence of spatial modulations in the potential.

The beauty of engineering dispersions with SOC BECs is that lattice complications are removed. The success of the single-band model in reproducing the experiment demonstrates clearly that the self-trapping results from the effective dispersion relationship. A single-band model using the dispersion of the lowest band in an optical lattice is able to explain the previous observation of self-trapping in lattice systems, clearly demonstrating the importance of the band structure and deemphasizing the role of the underlying lattice geometry of coupled wells. This result is confirmed by using a tight-binding approximation to map the optical lattice of Ref. [32] to a single band model, which reproduces their results. In our simulations, although the boundary appears to be very stable, it is “leaky.” This can be seen from Fig. 3 where the boundary maintains its shape, but permits a small number of fast moving particles to escape. Similarly, in optical lattice systems such fast moving particles are responsible for the continued increase in the width of the cloud seen by Ref. [32] even though the boundary remains stopped. This may resolve the apparent discrepancy between Refs. [32] and [37] as a quasistable but leaky gap soliton.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
63,061
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jesus guys.someone starts a crap thread about aliens and "what if the sun if a black hole", and it evolves into a 15 page thread about propulsion methods.
then we have an actual groundbreaking invention, and you are all taking the piss.
Yeah, that sounds about right.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,417
16,714
146
That was the first thing that I thought of when I read the thread title. If we made a planet-sized glob of this stuff would it push regular matter away?

Bear in mind, this wasn't a new state of matter or anything. Based on what I could glean from the research paper (which is well above my knowledge pay grade) it seems as though they were able to get matter to react in a very specific way, under exceptionally specific conditions, to behave counter to what mass should dictate (pushed towards a force provider, as opposed to away from). If you extrapolate this into extreme levels of post-future sci-fi, something could in theory alter properties of an object's behavior in such a way that pushing against it instead pulls it. Unknown if this would be applicable to gravity (anti-grav doohickey), unknown if this would be applicable at anything approaching human-scale sizes, temperatures, or timeframes.
 
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Darwin333

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Dec 11, 2006
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Bear in mind, this wasn't a new state of matter or anything. Based on what I could glean from the research paper (which is well above my knowledge pay grade) it seems as though they were able to get matter to react in a very specific way, under exceptionally specific conditions, to behave counter to what mass should dictate (pushed towards a force provider, as opposed to away from). If you extrapolate this into extreme levels of post-future sci-fi, something could in theory alter properties of an object's behavior in such a way that pushing against it instead pulls it. Unknown if this would be applicable to gravity (anti-grav doohickey), unknown if this would be applicable at anything approaching human-scale sizes, temperatures, or timeframes.

I wasn't really thinking about an "anti-grav doohickey" like a back to the future hoverboard or anything as that would require the anti-grav matter to be absurdly dense, like black hole dense or something. Just a thought experiment really of a planet-sized glob repelling asteroids and stuff versus pulling them in. If you were in a spaceship could you use the anti-grav planet to get a speed assist?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,417
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I wasn't really thinking about an "anti-grav doohickey" like a back to the future hoverboard or anything as that would require the anti-grav matter to be absurdly dense, like black hole dense or something. Just a thought experiment really of a planet-sized glob repelling asteroids and stuff versus pulling them in. If you were in a spaceship could you use the anti-grav planet to get a speed assist?

Beyond the logistical issues with the concept... if as merely a thought experiment we had a large object (moon-sized) that had the opposite effect of matter wrt force applied, it'd create very odd scenarios.

If we assume this didn't affect gravity itself, then hitting this thing with a meteor for instance would pull the object in the direction of that meteor. Likewise pushing off it with a rocket would pull the object along with the rocket. Interestingly, with an object small enough, you could essentially 'carry' an object to push off against using some propulsion method I'm sure. Think an object which follows your feet upwards as you push off, akin to a perpetual staircase.

If we assume this does have the same effect wrt gravity, then that object should feel the opposite effects of gravity, not produce them (remember, this effects the object's properties, not the properties of those around it nor the properties of physics itself). So instead of being pulled toward an object by gravity, it would be pushed away, presumably while other objects were still attracted to it.

In theory, if you had two otherwise stationary objects of equal mass in a vacuum away from other gravitational sources, one of which was affected by a 'null gravity' effect like this, the other object would 'chase' this one to some extent.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
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jesus guys.someone starts a crap thread about aliens and "what if the sun if a black hole", and it evolves into a 15 page thread about propulsion methods.
then we have an actual groundbreaking invention, and you are all taking the piss.

Award-winning physicists, we ain't.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
Beyond the logistical issues with the concept... if as merely a thought experiment we had a large object (moon-sized) that had the opposite effect of matter wrt force applied, it'd create very odd scenarios.

If we assume this didn't affect gravity itself, then hitting this thing with a meteor for instance would pull the object in the direction of that meteor. Likewise pushing off it with a rocket would pull the object along with the rocket. Interestingly, with an object small enough, you could essentially 'carry' an object to push off against using some propulsion method I'm sure. Think an object which follows your feet upwards as you push off, akin to a perpetual staircase.

If we assume this does have the same effect wrt gravity, then that object should feel the opposite effects of gravity, not produce them (remember, this effects the object's properties, not the properties of those around it nor the properties of physics itself). So instead of being pulled toward an object by gravity, it would be pushed away, presumably while other objects were still attracted to it.

In theory, if you had two otherwise stationary objects of equal mass in a vacuum away from other gravitational sources, one of which was affected by a 'null gravity' effect like this, the other object would 'chase' this one to some extent.
So, solar wind would slowly draw it toward the sun but gravity would push it away until the forces equalize somewhere else. Dark matter between everything! Pushes light around itself so we don't see it but we see its influence.

J/K
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,891
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jesus guys.someone starts a crap thread about aliens and "what if the sun if a black hole", and it evolves into a 15 page thread about propulsion methods.
then we have an actual groundbreaking invention, and you are all taking the piss.

it's because it's all sciencey with the mumbojumbo and the whootsits and the doozits and it's like bow oww oh cool, man with the jibblies, you know! but really it's also quite a bummer in some ways so you know, it's just too hard to figure this stuff out so let's just have a gas, right?

[read as Mick Jagger....er, Mike Meyers as Mick Jagger]
 
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fuzzybabybunny

Moderator<br>Digital & Video Cameras
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Jan 2, 2006
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I'm kind of confused on this.

Say you had a theoretical marble with negative mass.

You push it with your finger.

Instead of going in the direction that you pushed it in, it accelerates in the opposite direction.

But the opposite direction is directly into your finger... so what happens?