Math is fun: US economy prediction by David Schweikert (R)

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sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,147
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🙄 yes, that has nothing to do with my statement that 30% of the federal debt is held overseas.
In US Bonds... It doesn't matter who holds it, the pay out is fixed... I don't know why you think it makes a difference who holds it. It is a sign of confidence in the USA if you can sell all your Treasury bonds.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,934
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And 30% and rising is going overseas. What percentage of US GDP going from taxpayers to foreign creditors is acceptable to you?
Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down. For example the percent of debt held by foreign countries as a percent of GDP (which is what matters) is lower now than it was ten years ago.


As for what’s acceptable that’s a policy judgment as there’s advantages there too. Again though, the argument here is that the US is headed for some debt crash, which is at a minimum highly questionable given the 0% success rate of people making those predictions so far and, as far as I know no explanation as to why they are always wrong.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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It is absolutely amazing that anyone would think we should follow the policy recommendations of people who are LITERALLY BATTING .000 without them at a minimum explaining why they always get it wrong.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
5,191
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Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down. For example the percent of debt held by foreign countries is lower now than it was ten years ago.


As for what’s acceptable that’s a policy judgment as there’s advantages there too. Again though, the argument here is that the US is headed for some debt crash, which is at a minimum highly questionable given the 0% success rate of people making those predictions so far and, as far as I know no explanation as to why they are always wrong.
I never claimed there would be a debt crash, I simply said something has to change and you disagreed. Presumably that means you think 6% deficit growth combined with 2% GDP growth is acceptable in perpetuity. This means that money sent overseas as a percentage of GDP and the federal budget will rise with time. I think that’s bad.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
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Think about the amount of money we could spend instead on e.g. solar power rollouts if we weren’t still paying interest on the debt that financed the ten trillion dollar Iraq war.
Wouldn't happen, that money would just go to Elon, Zuckerberg, Bezos, etc as tax cuts and the debt would still be every bit as bad.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I never claimed there would be a debt crash, I simply said something has to change and you disagreed. Presumably that means you think 6% deficit growth combined with 2% GDP growth is acceptable in perpetuity. This means that money sent overseas as a percentage of GDP and the federal budget will rise with time. I think that’s bad.
Well it absolutely can continue forever and that’s just logic. After all, you could loan your wife an unlimited amount of money with zero effect on your household finances.

If you want to modify how and to who we sell debt and such that’s fine but again these are policy questions and are not actually difficult to do if we want to.

This topic is so tiresome because it’s mostly based in ideology and not evidence. I will stick with evidence.
 
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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
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Well it absolutely can continue forever and that’s just logic. After all, you could loan your wife an unlimited amount of money with zero effect on your household finances.
Speaking of tiresome, this analogy. If I loan my wife money at 4% (~the long term treasury yield) and my income goes up 2%, I go broke. But actually I’m the government so I can print money, which inflates its value away and does so at higher rates the more I’m printing once debt service ratio is high vs GDP. My wife and I are great but we’re greedy so my kids are fucked.

I don’t think it’s realistic to restrict treasury sales only to ourselves, sounds like a recipe for an actual crash to me. We’ll keep sending more and more money overseas instead at the expense of domestic priorities.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,147
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Yes. Are you ok?
10 year US TIPS is like 2.06% I think the USA can afford that without going bankrupt.

Also, the return on the money obtained on the sale of TIPS is guaranteed to beat 2.06% under sane management. Not sure about the current Yahoo in Chief.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
5,191
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10 year US TIPS is like 2.06% I think the USA can afford that without going bankrupt.
Those are not the only bonds the US sells, and also the rate on those is misleading anyway. The 2.06% is on top of inflation. When the bond becomes due its face value will be taken to be higher by whatever inflation was over that timeframe.

30 year yield is something like 4.7% right now and 10 year is 4.5%.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,934
55,285
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Speaking of tiresome, this analogy. If I loan my wife money at 4% (~the long term treasury yield) and my income goes up 2%, I go broke. But actually I’m the government so I can print money, which inflates its value away and does so at higher rates the more I’m printing once debt service ratio is high vs GDP. My wife and I are great but we’re greedy so my kids are fucked.

I don’t think it’s realistic to restrict treasury sales only to ourselves, sounds like a recipe for an actual crash to me. We’ll keep sending more and more money overseas instead at the expense of domestic priorities.
Well I’m not sure how your household operates but if it operates like the average American household my analogy is perfect and you know it.

Generally households have shared finances, as the US government does with the people of the US. So go ahead - loan your wife money in unlimited amounts and at unlimited rates. Make it a kabilion dollars at a kabillion percent per nanosecond. Your collective finances do not change by a single, solitary cent.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,147
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Those are not the only bonds the US sells, and also the rate on those is misleading anyway. The 2.06% is on top of inflation. When the bond becomes due its face value will be taken to be higher by whatever inflation was over that timeframe.

30 year yield is something like 4.7% right now and 10 year is 4.5%.

And? Bond return will always be lower than the market since it is guaranteed. Even if you take the bond money and put it in index funds you can service that debt easily and still have money left over.

It literally make no difference who holds it and what kind of credit note it is, bottom line, you only buy it if you trust the issuer's ability to payback. Thus the whole national debt crisis rhetoric falls apart.
 
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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
5,191
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lol, okay.

There is no point in this.
I own plenty of US treasuries, they definitely help me get further ahead of the many struggling people who can’t afford to hold government debt.

You’re the guy who said inflation is good for regular people too, right? Turns out most people didn’t agree, only people who already have money and assets.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,934
55,285
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I own plenty of US treasuries, they definitely help me get further ahead of the many struggling people who can’t afford to hold government debt.

You’re the guy who said inflation is good for regular people too, right? Turns out most people didn’t agree, only people who already have money and assets.
Correct. Modest, sustained inflation is good for the average person as the average person is a net debtor and inflation reduces the real value of debt. As for what rich people prefer they push for lower inflation because they have advisors who inform them of this.

You’re right that there is a psychological element to it where people often view rising prices as bad but their salary increases as the result of their own industry. People are rarely rational about personal finances - it’s why finance education isn’t effective at getting people to behave more responsibly as people view finances emotionally instead of logically. None of that changes what is empirically true.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
5,191
4,572
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Well it absolutely can continue forever and that’s just logic. After all, you could loan your wife an unlimited amount of money with zero effect on your household finances.

If you want to modify how and to who we sell debt and such that’s fine but again these are policy questions and are not actually difficult to do if we want to.

This topic is so tiresome because it’s mostly based in ideology and not evidence. I will stick with evidence.
Maybe a better way of making my point is that my example of 6% debt growth combined with 2% GDP growth, which you say can continue indefinitely, will eventually result in interest payments on the debt making up 100% of all economic activity. I am too lazy to calculate when but the math is simple and that is the end result. So what changes to make that result not happen? Obviously things break down far before that.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,364
16,634
146
Think about the amount of money we could spend instead on e.g. solar power rollouts if we weren’t still paying interest on the debt that financed the ten trillion dollar Iraq war.
Lol, if we weren't paying interest on that debt we'd have another carrier battle group, not more solar panels. Policy issue, not funding issue.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,918
2,883
136
House Republicans released a budget resolution Wednesday that calls for cutting taxes by up to $4.5 trillion and sets a goal of slashing federal spending by $2 trillion.

Hey @Greenman how's the math work out on this? If you cut spending by 2 trillion but cut your income by 4.5 trillion, what does that do to the debt you're incredibly concerned about?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,282
32,777
136
Only watched the first bit, but I've been assured by several people here that the debt doesn't matter at all. I think that's insane and that the system has to crash, but I've also been assured that I'm not bright enough to understand complex economics. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
The debt clearly doesn’t matter to you. Trump increased the deficit by 50% in 1st term BEFORE COVID spending yet you voted for him anyway.

Care to clue us in how that squares?
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,711
10,020
136
Cut 2t, spend 4.5t....

And... *checks notes*
Trump plans to increase the debt and deficit yet again! To the absolute surprise of no one.
Only Republican propaganda would claim otherwise.