"Massacre" Talk in Palestine same Mindless Dribble as "Massacre" talk in Afganistan

[Texmaster]

<< But its not a "massacre" by any definition until we know more regardless of who is to blame. "The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly" is a very specific definition.

Well, there is few things we can agree on. People died there. Palestinians claim that the dead number in several hundred. Israelis claim it's one hunded at most. Now we need to determine what could be considered to be a "large number of humans". 50? 100? 300? 500? I don't think there is an official concensus on what is "large number of humans", it all depends on the circumstances. >>



This is true.



<< Just a wealth of info aren't ya?

Yep. I live to please >>







<< BTW, now that I see the name, it was Kofi Annan who has already made the claim it was a massacre without being there.

He could be thinking along the same lines that I do: alot of people died. And altrough exact numbers are still unknown, it could be considered to be a massacre. But it seems that the definition differs from person to person. And saying that it was a massacre is not biased towards either party, since it could be caused by either the IDF or the palestinians. And that's why the fact-finding mission is going there.

Oooops, workday is over, time to head back home >>



hehe have a good one

 

[zoiks]

Actually its the other way round. The mindless 'dribble' is basically the notion that the rest of the world are fools and that israel occupancy and terrorism is justified.

One thing i have to say to the people who promote the hate against palestinians and other people is that I THANK you for your proactive though pointless and baseless views on how israeli occupation is justified. It just made me feel that some people want to believe in something so much that they wont let anything even if it is the truth change or even budge their mindset.
I was never pro palestinian before but after reading all the jabber and hot air posts here regarding how evil palestinians are, i realized that the actual truth is very painful to some people. Looking at viewpoints on this topic from places all over the world (including red cross and Amnesty) it is transparent that the true victims of all this ordeal are palestinians.
We will see the damage done when the UN officials assess the carnage. If Israel allows it that is. They want only Jenin to be assessed since one place is pretty easy for them to clean up.

And im pretty sure i wasnt the only one who became convinced.

zoiks.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Actually its the other way round. The mindless dribble is basically the notion that the rest of the world are fools and that israel occupancy and terrorism is justified.

One thing i have to say to the people who promote the hate against palestinians and other people is that I THANK you for your proactive though pointless and baseless views on how israeli occupation is justified. It just made me feel that some people want to believe in something so much that they wont let anything even if it is the truth change or even budge their mindset.
I was never pro palestinian before but after reading all the jabber and hot air posts here regarding how evil palestinians are, i realized that the actual truth is very painful to some people. Looking at viewpoints on this topic from places all over the world (including red cross and Amnesty) it is transparent that the true victims of all this ordeal are palestinians.
We will see the damage done when the UN officials assess the carnage. If Israel allows it that is. They want only Jenin to be assessed since one place is pretty easy for them to clean up.

And im sure im not the only one.

zoiks. >>



Zioks your comments are as empty as they were last night. You continually support papers who have been wrong at least twice when it comes to reporting tragedies. First with the number of Afgan civilians killed with American bombs and second with the treament of Arab prisnors held by the US.

And of course no evidence to support anything you are claiming. What a shocker.

Where is your compassion for the Specifically Targeted Israeli civilians who lost their lives to terrorst bombings?

Of thats, right. In your book only Palestinian deaths count.

 

[ThePresence]

I didn't read through all the previous posts, so this may have been mentioned...

Israel rejected the UN group, because they wanted military experts on the group. Not some weepy, afraid to look at a dead body, hand wringing, EU loving, leftwinging, tree hugging, SUV bashing crowd. They wanted someone who actually understands what it takes to fight in places like this. They wanted someone with experience.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< Let me see, the Red Cross recognizes the Christian Cross and Muslim Cresent, but NOT the Star of David... and we're supposed to believe they're not being anti-semetic?

Riiiiiiiight.

>>



It could all just boil down to raw numbers: There are ALOT of christians and muslims, there are very few jews. Why should jewish religion get special treatment? Why not accept all the religious symbols around the world as symbols for aid-workers? Sooner or later, it would get confusing. >>



I see. So you're all for equality, but only for the majority? Give me a break, that's a very weak argument and you know it.

 

[zoiks]

Tex, What i have just posted is my overall conclusion. My posts last night were not empty. I gave plenty of references and i can give more.
If you have read my posts in the past, i do not think the palestinian bombing is justified!. I think they are the overall victims in this tragedy. They are killed by a ratio of 10 to 1 and after jenin a even bigger ratio. We will see about that though after UN visits.

Of everything that has happened, Palestinians are the ones who are truly suffering.
Even before these events happened, even though it was never shown here in the US, I knew through friends at my university that people over there didnt have water to drink or bathe in while their israeli counterparts had every luxury possible.
They are being pulverised and punished by israelis further and to the limit. And if you think of it, its no wonder they resort to bombs and kill civilians since their own are suffering.

I was impartial to all of this and never thought about it. I mean this is happening the other side of the world, right!
But all the posts here just drew me to think about it. I saw people post senseless threads of justifying palestinian killings, refusing arab immigration etc. But all in all it just boils down to one thing, and that is hate.

Thats how i see it.

 

[PlatinumGold]

zoiks.

if your really for peace, than be for peace. In my opinion the only way the palestinians are going to get any concessions from the israelis is if they launch a peaceful protest in the spirit of ghandi and MLK Jr. I'm really shocked that they are garnering world support with their bombing approach. It is not in the best interest of ANY nation to support VIOLENT protest. so its ok for the palestinians, it's ok for Northern Ireland, who else, should civil rights activist in the US take to the Violent protests?

As long as the palestinians continue the bombings it is not in the self interest of any other nation to support them.

 

[Gaard]

Why is it so important to some people to blindly support Israel? Or Palestine, for that matter? The suicide bombers are filth in my book. There is no question that civilians were targeted...and nobody should even think about supporting or defending that reprehensible act. That being said, and correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm not right 100% of the time), why are some people supporting or defending reprehensible acts commited by Israel?

Even the diehard Vietnam War supporters I don't think supported the massacres, rapes, etc that went on over there.

What will you guys say if it becomes a proven fact that Israel did commit the atrocities in Jenin that it's accused of commiting?

And this goes for supporters of the Palestinians also. It's possible to think that the Palestinian people have a legitimant gripe and at the same time say that suicide bombing is cowardly and reprehensible, and the Palestinian people who support/condone/fund it are assholes.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Tex, What i have just posted is my overall conclusion. >>



Without any confirmed evidence. How sad yet how predictable.



<< My posts last night were not empty. >>



Yes they were



<< I gave plenty of references and i can give more. >>



You gave references to people who have been proven wrong in this area TWICE and they even Admit they don't have trhe evidence yet.

What a sucker you are.



<< If you have read my posts in the past, i do not think the palestinian bombing is justified!. I think they are the overall victims in this tragedy. They are killed by a ratio of 10 to 1 and after jenin a even bigger ratio. >>



LOL!!! There you go again. No number to support your BS theories yet you make the claims.



<< We will see about that though after UN visits. >>



Yes we will but you have already said you have come to conlcusions. How pathetic is that.



<< Of everything that has happened, Palestinians are the ones who are truly suffering. >>



Right. The Israeli familes who have lost family members aren't suffering are they?

My God you are biased.



<< Even before these events happened, even though it was never shown here in the US, I knew through friends at my university that people over there didnt have water to drink or bathe in while their israeli counterparts had every luxury possible.
They are being pulverised and punished by israelis further and to the limit. And if you think of it, its no wonder they resort to bombs and kill civilians since their own are suffering. >>



And there you go justifying sucide bombings. You are nothing but an anti-semite.



<< I was impartial to all of this and never thought about it. >>



LOL You are right about the no thought comment for sure.



<< I mean this is happening the other side of the world, right! But all the posts here just drew me to think about it. I saw people post senseless threads of justifying palestinian killings, refusing arab immigration etc. But all in all it just boils down to one thing, and that is hate.

Thats how i see it. >>



What you see is your own bigotry against an entire people. Your conclusions are supported by no facts and your only sources are speculation from people who have been wrong in this area TWICE already.

People like you sicken me because you are already willing to judge before any facts are in.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< I didn't read through all the previous posts, so this may have been mentioned...

Israel rejected the UN group, because they wanted military experts on the group. Not some weepy, afraid to look at a dead body, hand wringing, EU loving, leftwinging, tree hugging, SUV bashing crowd. They wanted someone who actually understands what it takes to fight in places like this. They wanted someone with experience. >>





<< I didn't read through all the previous posts, so this may have been mentioned...

Israel rejected the UN group, because they wanted military experts on the group. Not some weepy, afraid to look at a dead body, hand wringing, EU loving, leftwinging, tree hugging, SUV bashing crowd. They wanted someone who actually understands what it takes to fight in places like this. They wanted someone with experience. >>



Have you actually studied who belong to the fact-finding mission? It has three core members, and it has experts regarding police-matters (That particular person is the commander of the international police-force in the Balkans) and military-matters (american colonel if I remember correctly). The three core members are expert on refugee-matters and ex head of International Red Cross. As to the man who is leading them....



<< Martti Ahtisaari has earned a worldwide reputation as a diplomat able to handle the thorniest of problems.

Most recently he served as an independent arms inspector in Northern Ireland last year.

The year before, he was a European Union envoy sent to assess Austria's human rights record in the row between Vienna and the EU over the far-right Freedom's Party's entry into a coalition government.

Mr Ahtisaari is considered to have been instrumental in bringing an end to the conflict in Kosovo in June 1999 after he was sent by the European Union as a mediator.

He headed the UN's monitoring of Namibia's transition to independence in 1990.

Then, in 1993, he was one of a number of European envoys who tried to prevent the former Yugoslavia sliding further into ethnic conflict. >>



Source

Yep, he sure has no experience

Honestly, I don't think they could have found more suitable person to lead the mission.

And what does tree-hugging or SUV-bashing (neither of which I have heard any of these to do) have to do with this thing ??

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<<

<< Let me see, the Red Cross recognizes the Christian Cross and Muslim Cresent, but NOT the Star of David... and we're supposed to believe they're not being anti-semetic?

Riiiiiiiight.

>>



It could all just boil down to raw numbers: There are ALOT of christians and muslims, there are very few jews. Why should jewish religion get special treatment? Why not accept all the religious symbols around the world as symbols for aid-workers? Sooner or later, it would get confusing. >>



I see. So you're all for equality, but only for the majority? Give me a break, that's a very weak argument and you know it. >>



I ask again, why should the jewish start be a symbol of aid-workers? Then shouldn't upside down pentagram be one too (otherwise you are biased against satan-worshippers). Or how about a regular pentagram (the symbol of the wiccans). There is a hindu-symbol resemblin swastika, so maybe it too should be a symbol of aid-workers. How about buddhist symbols? How about no symbol at all (I mean, religious symbols are biased against atheists)

EDIT: just found this:



<< Why are symbols other than a red cross used by other National Societies within the Movement?

Although the red cross is not a religious symbol, some societies view it as such. The symbol of the red crescent is used instead of the red cross by societies in most Islamic countries; and the Magen David Adom, or Red Shield of David, is used in Israel. >>



Source

I rest my case

 

[ThePresence]

<< [Have you actually studied who belong to the fact-finding mission? It has three core members, and it has experts regarding police-matters (That particular person is the commander of the international police-force in the Balkans) and military-matters (american colonel if I remember correctly). The three core members are expert on refugee-matters and ex head of International Red Cross. As to the man who is leading them.... >>



Experts on refugee matters. Ex head of the Red Cross. Precisely the people who should NOT be on this mission. The mission should be composed of ONLY military people. Those that understand what fighting terrorists in a closely packed city is like.
Here's the source of what I was talking about.



<< Martti Ahtisaari has earned a worldwide reputation as a diplomat able to handle the thorniest of problems.

Most recently he served as an independent arms inspector in Northern Ireland last year.

The year before, he was a European Union envoy sent to assess Austria's human rights record in the row between Vienna and the EU over the far-right Freedom's Party's entry into a coalition government.

Mr Ahtisaari is considered to have been instrumental in bringing an end to the conflict in Kosovo in June 1999 after he was sent by the European Union as a mediator.

He headed the UN's monitoring of Namibia's transition to independence in 1990.

Then, in 1993, he was one of a number of European envoys who tried to prevent the former Yugoslavia sliding further into ethnic conflict. >>



Then I obviously was not referring to him.




<< And what does tree-hugging or SUV-bashing (neither of which I have heard any of these to do) have to do with this thing ?? >>



Referrences to a certain mindset, a certain type of person who should not be on such a mission. Like the former head of the Red Cross etc. Thats not to say that these are his politics, but I'm just talking about that type.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Aerial Photographs of Jenin

The above page (allegedly) has photos of the Jenin camp after the IDF assault.
While you can't draw any conclusions it looks to me like the damage is far more contained than
some news reports have led me to believe.
Again, I am not saying these prove anything, but they are interesting nonetheless.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< Experts on refugee matters. Ex head of the Red Cross. Precisely the people who should NOT be on this mission. The mission should be composed of ONLY military people. Those that understand what fighting terrorists in a closely packed city is like.
Here's the source of what I was talking about. >>



So let me get this straight.... This thing took place in a refugee-camp, where thousands of refugees lived. And no refugee-expert should be sent there. There are obviously humanitarian issues involved (there usually are when people get killed in these kinds of things), and no expert on humanitarian-issues should be sent there.

Riiiight....



<<

<< And what does tree-hugging or SUV-bashing (neither of which I have heard any of these to do) have to do with this thing ?? >>



Referrences to a certain mindset, a certain type of person who should not be on such a mission. Like the former head of the Red Cross etc. Thats not to say that these are his politics, but I'm just talking about that type. >>



So only SUV-driving right-wing americans who support Israel should be sent there? And could they be objective? I SERIOUSLY doubt it! And like I said, there IS an american expert on military issues going there with the team.

Honestly, could you at least TRY to make some sense??

EDIT: I can picture it now

"So, you are applying for a position as a member of fact-finding mission to middle-east?"
"That's right"
"Tell me, do you drive a SUV?"
"What? No, I drive a VW Passat"
"I see. No need to call us, we will call you. Next applicant please!"

LOL!

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

The UN team should consist of equal parts 'liberal, brainless, VW driving, Pro-Palestinian Euros' and 'conservative, souless, SUV driving, Pro-Israeli Americans'

 

[Texmaster]

<< The UN team should consist of equal parts 'liberal, brainless, VW driving, Pro-Palestinian Euros' and 'conservative, souless, SUV driving, Pro-Israeli Americans' >>



HAHAHAHA

 

[ThePresence]

<< So let me get this straight.... This thing took place in a refugee-camp, where thousands of refugees lived. And no refugee-expert should be sent there. There are obviously humanitarian issues involved (there usually are when people get killed in these kinds of things), and no expert on humanitarian-issues should be sent there. >>



Humanitarian issues? Please. This mission is not about helping the Palestinians refugees. This mission is about finding out if any atrocities were comitted. What the hell is a humanitarian expert (whatever that means) gonna tell you? He has no clue what it means to fight in a city. So how is he gonna know what kinda fighting went on?



<< So only SUV-driving right-wing americans who support Israel should be sent there? And could they be objective? I SERIOUSLY doubt it! And like I said, there IS an american expert on military issues going there with the team.

Honestly, could you at least TRY to make some sense??

EDIT: I can picture it now

"So, you are applying for a position as a member of fact-finding mission to middle-east?"
"That's right"
"Tell me, do you drive a SUV?"
"What? No, I drive a VW Passat"
"I see. No need to call us, we will call you. Next applicant please!"

LOL! >>



I believe you are taking what I said WAY out of context. What I meant was the kind of people that cant bear to see the sight of blood should not be sent. The kind of people that are more worried about the life of a tree than the life of a human should not be sent. This is the wrong place for them. I think you get my drift.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< Humanitarian issues? Please. This mission is not about helping the Palestinians refugees. This mission is about finding out if any atrocities were comitted. What the hell is a humanitarian expert (whatever that means) gonna tell you? He has no clue what it means to fight in a city. So how is he gonna know what kinda fighting went on? >>



Humanitarian issues involve such things as mis-treatment of prisoners, random executions, use of human-shields, torture, persecution, killing of civilians... I think it's a good thing to send someone who knows about those kinds of things there. If you want information regarding the military-aspect of the situation, you talk to the american colonel who's there with them. I fail to see the problem.

And you would be surprised what some of those people have seen in their lives. If the ex head of Red Cross has worked in the lower ranks of Red Cross, I bet he has seen plenty of dying all around the world.



<< I believe you are taking what I said WAY out of context. What I meant was the kind of people that cant bear to see the sight of blood should not be sent. The kind of people that are more worried about the life of a tree than the life of a human should not be sent. This is the wrong place for them. I think you get my drift. >>



What makes you think that these people are anything like that? Because two of them have worked in an organization that tries to help other humans? Whereas the SUV-drivers are rough men who kill their own food? Does working for organizations that try to help other humans make them less qualified to work in a situation that involves death and suffering? I don't think so. True, they are not experts on military or security-issues, and that's why they have specialists of those respective fields there with them.

Last time I checked, Red Cross is NOT an environmental organization. The people working there are the first in big scenes of catastrophy, they have seen plenty of death. People who work among refugees have seen plenty of suffering. I don't understand why you think that they are just bunch of softies.

 

[zoiks]

Tex, if i sicken you then maybe thats a good sign. From what you have posted so far, its just made me stronger in my opinion that palestinians are the ones that suffered and that israel should be dealt with a firm hand. The views you have given are basically that its Israel all for nothing even if it involves massive suffering, attrocities, slaughter.
I think that the truth and facts speak for themselves. Simply put. As I have said before, we will see what the truth about Jenin really is when the UN inspectors go there.

 

[Jimbo]

zoiks From reading your posts the is NOTHING that Israel could do right and nothing that the Palestinians can do wrong, or at least is not justified. Either you hate Israel or you hate Jews or you're Arab.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Tex, if i sicken you then maybe thats a good sign. From what you have posted so far, its just made me stronger in my opinion that palestinians are the ones that suffered and that israel should be dealt with a firm hand. The views you have given are basically that its Israel all for nothing even if it involves massive suffering, attrocities, slaughter. >>



I'm not the one coming to conclusions admittingly BEFORE the evidence is presented. That's you.



<< I think that the truth and facts speak for themselves. Simply put. As I have said before, we will see what the truth about Jenin really is when the UN inspectors go there. >>



And I'll be proven right yet again about these Moronic sources of yours. Perhaps when they get this wrong making it 3 times in a row, you will start seeing past your own bigotry.

 

[zoiks]

Nopes i am not arab nor do i hate jews. One of my best friends is jewish.
Did i say anything about jews???? I said Israel. I said it from a government entity standpoint. I did not say it from a racial standpoint.

My own conclusion is based on events and news. Not to mention that it has been strengthened it by reading senseless posts based on speculations and biased reportings.

 

[Gaard]

Tex, these are your words...


yesterday -

<< Now, where are all the apologies from the Palestinian supporters who bought into the Massacre LIE? >>




today -

<< I'm not the one coming to conclusions admittingly BEFORE the evidence is presented. >>

 

[Nemesis77]

Just decided to provide some more news. This from Palestine Red Crescent Society (sister-organisation of Red Cross):



<< Eyewitness accounts from Jenin Camp

debriefed March 5 & 6 by PRCS

1) There was no road block (as Israeli army falsely reported)

2) Soldiers were stationed on the second floor and fired at ambulance from close range

3) Siren of ambulance was on and car was nearly stopped when it was fired on firstly with live ammunition/bullets, then the grenade launcher

4) Dr. khalil had his hand out the window and was calling upon the soldiers saying "ambulance, ambulance" when he was hit

5) Most residents in the narrow street confirmed seeing first hand the launch of the grenade

6) Soldiers prevented access to "screaming" Dr. Khalil as camp residents attempted to rush to the burning vehicle and pull him out - by shooting at the residents

7) The paramedics that were able to jump out the vehicle and rush to nearby homes all sustained severe burns - and screamed at residents to call for a second ambulance for help

8) fire dept and rescue ambulances were fired upon as well. access was not permitted until 1.5 hours after the incident. >>



There are also pics of the ambulance in the website.

Also, I found few other piece of news:



<< A stretch on Ramallah's main road that leads west from Manara Squara was the site of extensive gunfights and shelling yesterday. During skirmishing in this area, shots were fired at a non-government health clinic complex of the Medical Relief Committees. Officials at the complex, who include volunteers from Italy, and residents in the building, were forced to leave after loudspeaker announcements threatened that the facility would be shelled.

IDF soldiers detained a physician in the complex, and forced him to serve as a human shield while they conducted searches of the facility, the Relief Committees' head, Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi, told Ha'aretz. Building residents and workers for the Relief Committees, including the volunteers from Italy and a European Parliament member, Luisa Morgantini, were first forced to stand against a wall with their hands in the air. They were then held for several hours outside the building, before being released in the evening. >>



source



<< Mrs Safran had arrived at the hospital about noon to have a cast removed from a broken leg. She made it about 50 metres down the road before she was shot dead.

"She was wearing a skirt, she had a veil on her head ... everyone could tell she was a woman," said Dr Ahmed Haleem, of the hospital's emergency department, who watched from a window as she fell.

When a group of medics in white coats ventured out with a stretcher to retrieve her body, they were also fired on. >>



Source

Incidents such as these is exactly why we need neutral third-parties to check their validity. And it's obvious that both sides have done plenty of bad things, it's about time the killing ends (altrough I'm not optimistic)

 

[thirdrail]

> It could all just boil down to raw numbers: There are ALOT of christians and muslims, there are very few jews. Why should jewish
> religion get special treatment? Why not accept all the religious symbols around the world as symbols for aid-workers? Sooner or later, it > would get confusing.

This makes no sense -- you can't have it both ways. The Red Cross agreed to accept the crescent in deference to Muslim sentiments regarding the cross. Having done that, ICRC should be morally obligated to do that for any other country/population that may have mixed emotions about the emblem. Either use one neutral emblem, or apply the same standard to everyone.

It certainly seems like some of the most humane & beneficial institutions of the 20th century (the UN and ICRC) are now being used as political tools, instead of focusing on their original agenda. The UN, especially, has become a deeply ineffectual and idealogically corrupt derelict.