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"Massacre" Talk in Palestine same Mindless Dribble as "Massacre" talk in Afganistan

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<< Face it. the Europeans just can't accept that the US is the only world power left. They are sooo resentful of the accomplishments of the US over the last 200 years. Europeans want the US to look bad every opportunity they get. >>



Ummmm... This is about EU's complaints regaring Israel, how the hell do you twist this in to an "EU is jealous of USA!" argument 😕?
 
In related news:



<< Israel protests over UN Jenin investigation

Israel is protesting the appointment of a UN fact-finding team to investigate its attacks on the Jenin refugee camp.

Defence Minister Mr Binyamin Ben-Eliezer called Secretary-General Mr Kofi Annan yesterday to complain that Israel was not consulted the make-up of the three-man team >>

(My note: neither was palestinians, what's the problem?).

<<

Israel is also demanding that retired US maj gen William Nash be made a full member rather than just an adviser.

Mr Ben-Eliezer asked the team limit its mission to Jenin, but Mr Annan did not rule out possible visits to other West Bank cities at an earlier news conference.

Mr Ben-Eliezer demanded Mr Annan include Gen Nash as a full member instead of an adviser because of the complex security issues involved, the Ministry of Defence said.

Mr Ben-Eliezer said: "I am sure that our presentation will rip the mask of Palestinian lies and expose the behaviour of terrorists that is contrary to all moral and legal standards. The truth will win in the end".

But Mr Nasser Al-Kidwa, the Palestinian UN observer, claimed yesterday the facts in Jenin already prove Israel is guilty of "war crimes".

The team will be led by former Finnish president Mr Martti Ahtisaari. The other members are Mr Cornelio Sommaruga, former president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and Mr Sadako Ogata, the former UN high commissioner for refugees who is Japan's special envoy on Afghan reconstruction.

Ireland's former assistant Garda commissioner Mr Peter Fitzgerald, who headed the UN international police force in Bosnia, will be the team's police adviser. >>



Source

If they have nothing to hide, then surely they should allow the fact-finding team to go there? Regardless that do they have good reasons to complain or not, it seems to the rest of the world that they are trying to stall as much as they can. The team has military-experts as advisors, so I fail to see what is the problem here.
 


<< In any war there is going to be civilian casualties. You just have to determine what percentage of the actual bodycount belonged to civilians. >>



I think the Palestinians here defined the Rules of Engagement when they sent suicide bombers into supermarkets, cafes, etc. In doing so, they consider every Israeli citizen a combatant and therefore a valid target. I think Israel has been more than fair in their response.
 


<< From the CNN article: "Mardawi drew a map of the camp and talked about the course of the battle. Their weapons were guns and crudely made bombs and booby traps -- "big ones" for tanks and "others the size of a water bottle." He estimated 1,000 to 2,000 bombs and booby traps were spread through the camp." >>



I wonder how many Palestinian deaths resulted from these bombs and booby traps yet will be 'credited' to the IDF?
rolleye.gif
 


<<

<< In any war there is going to be civilian casualties. You just have to determine what percentage of the actual bodycount belonged to civilians. >>



I think the Palestinians here defined the Rules of Engagement when they sent suicide bombers into supermarkets, cafes, etc. In doing so, they consider every Israeli citizen a combatant and therefore a valid target. I think Israel has been more than fair in their response. >>



Indeed, all Palestinians do that. And as you have been able to see from the recent news there are Catholic priests who are US citizens, and who are rapists and homosexuals. In the same line of reasoning we can therefor conclude that all Catholics and all US citizens are homosexual rapists. Thank you for your moronitude.
 
Looks like to me that Jenin was just a big booby trap for the IDF. And when it wasn't as successful as they wanted it to be, the "terrorists" used another of their tactics. Lying, which because it seems that people seem to either be triflingly moronic (which isn't all that hard to believe) or racism still has one skeleton in its closet. (Or both) I personally wish Sharon wasn't at Isreal's helm right now, but lets not blame the innocent for the lies of the guilty. Lets not let the guilty make us accomplises in their crimes.

Article from Al-Ahram Weekly - Egyptian Weekly Online "The Engineer"

The 'engineer'
An engineer of the fiercest battle waged by the Palestinians during the invasion of the West Bank spoke to Jonathan Cook about the days of defiance in Jenin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Omar sits restlessly on his chair in the safe-house. He is an "engineer" from Jenin refugee camp: one of the revered bomb-makers from the City of the Bombers. To the Israelis he is the most lethal, and wanted, of terrorists. The poison from the Cobra's head.

We meet late last Thursday, hours after he escaped from the camp as Israeli soldiers took control of the area. We are still close enough to Jenin that we can see the constant stream of illumination flares, three launched by the army at a time, that light up the soldiers' dark work in the city below.

But Omar will not be staying here long. He is going to ground deeper in the West Bank before regrouping with his comrades from Jenin.

There may not be too many. Even according to Israeli army sources, at least a hundred fighters were killed and hundreds more wounded and captured during the eight days of savage fighting.

Omar will not give his name or age. He is slim, in his mid-20s, with a closely cropped beard. He is a member of Islamic Jihad, but says in Jenin all the factions were loyal to only one cause: liberation or death.

Visible beneath a blue bomber jacket is the tightly bandaged stump of his right arm, the end of which he rubs distractedly.

How did he lose it? During the previous invasion of Jenin by the Israeli army several weeks ago, he says. He was hiding with only his arm visible as he tried to throw a 'kwa' -- a home-made pipe bomb -- at a tank. Shrapnel from a shell severed it, he says.

But as a bomb-maker, one of the most highly respected positions in the Palestinian resistance, he could equally have lost the arm in less glorious circumstances: in one of the explosions that are a professional hazard of his job.

Omar admits he is one of only a few dozen fighters not to emerge either dead or in plastic handcuffs from the fiercest battle waged by the Palestinians during the Israeli army's invasion of the West Bank.

Of his group of 30 gunmen, only four escaped from the camp on Wednesday, after the Palestinian arsenal ran dry. Most of the others were shot dead.

"Of all the fighters in the West Bank we were the best prepared," he says. "We started working on our plan: to trap the invading soldiers and blow them up from the moment the Israeli tanks pulled out of Jenin last month."

Omar and other "engineers" made hundreds of explosive devices and carefully chose their locations.

"We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel because we knew the soldiers would search for them," he said.

"We cut off lengths of mains water pipes and packed them with explosives and nails. Then we placed them about four metres apart throughout the houses -- in cupboards, under sinks, in sofas."

The fighters hoped to disable the Israeli army's tanks with much more powerful bombs placed inside rubbish bins on the street. More explosives were hidden inside the cars of Jenin's most wanted men.

Connected by wires, the bombs were set off remotely, triggered by the current from a car battery.

According to Omar, everyone in the camp, including the children, knew where the explosives were located so that there was no danger of civilians being injured. It was the one weakness in the plan.

"We were betrayed by the spies among us," he says. The wires to more than a third of the bombs were cut by soldiers accompanied by collaborators. "If it hadn't been for the spies, the soldiers would never have been able to enter the camp. Once they penetrated the camp, it was much harder to defend."

And what about the explosion and ambush last Tuesday which killed 13 soldiers?

"They were lured there," he says. "We all stopped shooting and the women went out to tell the soldiers that we had run out of bullets and were leaving." The women alerted the fighters as the soldiers reached the booby- trapped area.

"When the senior officers realised what had happened, they shouted through megaphones that they wanted an immediate cease-fire. We let them approach to retrieve the men and then opened fire.

"Some of the soldiers were so shocked and frightened that they mistakenly ran towards us."

On Wednesday, after the fighters ran out of ammunition, he says, armoured vehicles roamed the streets calling out to them in Arabic: "You are finished and can't win against us. We are more powerful than you. Surrender."

He saw one fighter who went down to the street with his hands in the air shot dead by snipers. He chose to flee the camp, although he will not say how.

Using his left arm, Omar shot a revolver during the gun battles.

With a new intensity on his face, he leans forward to ask a question. Do I think the doctors will be able to give him a strong new artificial arm with fingers he can operate. I don't know, I say. Why?

"Because I want to be able to hold a heavy rifle again. That way I can kill more Israeli soldiers. It's that or become a suicide bomber."


 


<< Anyone notice how once again the European papers jumped all over the word "Massacre" when they referred to the Israeli incursion only to back off it once 3rd parties starting counting the bodies?

I really get sick and tired of the European and some American press that simply love to take the enemy's word for casualities and atrocities and act as if its true.

And once again, as they did with Afgan Civilian Casuality reports from the Taliban, they have had to back off "Massacre" talk in Palestine.

Not to mention them jumping the gun on the treatement of Afgan prisnors held by the US.

Its pathetic how how quick they are to judge based on the word of the enemy. >>





since I am 10,000 miles away, I will take the word of various media sources, neutral international organizations such as the red cross, and others. Neither you or I are in a position to KNOW what happened there.
 


<<

<< Since when have the Palestinians become out enemy? >>


I took the hint when they were dancing in the street on Sept. 11 🙁 >>




rolleye.gif


Cmon, thats retarded logic and you know it. You cannot take a video (if it was even real) and make the assumption that of the 10 people seen in it, they are representative of the whole country.
 


<<

<<

<< In any war there is going to be civilian casualties. You just have to determine what percentage of the actual bodycount belonged to civilians. >>



I think the Palestinians here defined the Rules of Engagement when they sent suicide bombers into supermarkets, cafes, etc. In doing so, they consider every Israeli citizen a combatant and therefore a valid target. I think Israel has been more than fair in their response. >>



Indeed, all Palestinians do that. And as you have been able to see from the recent news there are Catholic priests who are US citizens, and who are rapists and homosexuals. In the same line of reasoning we can therefor conclude that all Catholics and all US citizens are homosexual rapists. Thank you for your moronitude. >>



In accusing me of "moronitude" (or whatever), it seems to me that you're making an assumption that the Israelis deliberately targeted/massacred civilians, an assumption that has yet to be (and is probably unlikely to be) proven.

So answer: Yes or no, did or did not the Palestinians define the Rules of Engagement?
 


<< What simplistic nonsense

my simplistic nonsense is just a response to his simplistic nonsense

a lot of right-wing americans on this forum just can't have it that there is a slightly different view on some things by europeans
the only thing they do is start the flagwaving >>



You continually bash all "flag waving" as something evil, Geeks. Why?

Is all flag waving "Jingoism?" Obviously not, yet it's the first and only insult you can come up with.

I'll stick with my "simplistic" comment, simply because that's all I've ever seen from you.
 


<< since I am 10,000 miles away, I will take the word of various media sources, neutral international organizations such as the red cross, and others. Neither you or I are in a position to KNOW what happened there. >>



The International Red Cross is hardly neutral.

Did you know they have reject Israel as being a member of the international Red Cross but allowed Palestine?

If thats not bias I dont know what is.
 


<< Texmaster

You really hate Europe -- don't you -- come on, admit it -- you almost hate us as much as you hate the Palestinians
I think it's something in your genes


the crap you post is a pure waist of already limited bandwith for non subscribing users like myself >>



HAHAHA Always nice to see the morons come out of the woodwork.

Must I remind you that I am friends with Czar, Elledan, and Nemesis77?

I hate the rush to judgement many Europeans have. I hate the anti-semitism many of the Europeans have had.

Yes there are aspects of Europe I dont like but its a far cry from condemning the entire continent.

You must really hate the US don't you? 😉
 


<< So have there been any final reports regarding the alleged Massacre? >>



I dont think so because no one with a real objective opinion has been allowed in.

That team the UN wants to send in of the three, one has already come out and claimed it is a massacre without even seeing it.

NPR said something about an American General going with the group this morning.
 


<< So have there been any final reports regarding the alleged Massacre? >>



Negative. Israel has denied the UN fact-finding missions entrance to the country.
 


<< That team the UN wants to send in of the three, one has already come out and claimed it is a massacre without even seeing it. >>



Links? You could say that the Jenin-incident IS a massacre. Only things that need to be studied is the magnitude of it (dozens of dead or hundreds of dead) and the cause (booby-traps or IDF-soldiers).

Apparently, one of the reasons why Red Cross and Israel have difficulties cooperating is this:



<< Israel's problems with the International Committee of the Red Cross ? which Sommaruga headed from 1987 until 1999 ? have been continual since Israel was first rejected for membership in the organization in 1949. The ICRC recognizes only the cross and the Muslim crescent as official emblems and will not sanction the Jewish star of David as a symbol for relief workers. >>



Source

😕
 


<<

<< That team the UN wants to send in of the three, one has already come out and claimed it is a massacre without even seeing it. >>



Links? You could say that the Jenin-incident IS a massacre. Only things that need to be studied is the magnitude of it (dozens of dead or hundreds of dead) and the cause (booby-traps or IDF-soldiers). >>



I disagree. You can't call it a massacre. A massacre is The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.

You can't even begin to prove that.


And if you want a first hand account, here is one.

Link



<< Apparently, one of the reasons why Red Cross and Israel have difficulties cooperating is this

Israel's problems with the International Committee of the Red Cross ? which Sommaruga headed from 1987 until 1999 ? have been continual since Israel was first rejected for membership in the organization in 1949. The ICRC recognizes only the cross and the Muslim crescent as official emblems and will not sanction the Jewish star of David as a symbol for relief workers. >>



Source

😕[/i] >>



Yes and this is a major problem if you are going to claim to be an "unbiased observer"

Thanks for the link and info.
 


<< I disagree. You can't call it a massacre. A massacre is The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.

You can't even begin to prove that. >>



Well, if there were people killed in Jenin, then it is a massacre. If it were caused by palestinians, it's a massacre. If it was caused by the IDF, it's still a massacre. I mean, one thing we are sure, is that alot of people died there (altrough exact numbers are still needed)



<< Yes and this is a major problem if you are going to claim to be an "unbiased observer"

Thanks for the link and info. >>



Here's additional information of the Red Cross/Israel-thingy:



<< Media sources reported Israel's serious objections to the appointment of Sommaruga, who served as head of the Red Cross from 1987 to 1999. In an article written by Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer two years ago, Sommaruga was quoted as saying, "If we're going to have the Shield of David (as an accepted symbol for relief workers), why would we not have to accept the swastika?"

But Israeli Foreign Ministry legal adviser Alan Baker, who was present at the time of Sommaruga's remarks, said that using them to portray the Red Cross president as having an anti-Jewish bias was "a vile manipulation of something said in a different context," the Jerusalem Post reported.

Sommaruga, a 70-year-old Swiss citizen whose father saved Jews during the Holocaust, insisted that these comments were taken out of context. Diplomatic sources said that he is fair towards Israel, but very critical of its policies in the Palestinian territories, Yediot Aharonot reported. >>



Source
 


<< Well, if there were people killed in Jenin, then it is a massacre. If it were caused by palestinians, it's a massacre. If it was caused by the IDF, it's still a massacre. I mean, one thing we are sure, is that alot of people died there (altrough exact numbers are still needed) >>



But its not a "massacre" by any definition until we know more regardless of who is to blame. "The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly" is a very specific definition.



<< Here's additional information of the Red Cross/Israel-thingy:



<< Media sources reported Israel's serious objections to the appointment of Sommaruga, who served as head of the Red Cross from 1987 to 1999. In an article written by Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer two years ago, Sommaruga was quoted as saying, "If we're going to have the Shield of David (as an accepted symbol for relief workers), why would we not have to accept the swastika?"

But Israeli Foreign Ministry legal adviser Alan Baker, who was present at the time of Sommaruga's remarks, said that using them to portray the Red Cross president as having an anti-Jewish bias was "a vile manipulation of something said in a different context," the Jerusalem Post reported.

Sommaruga, a 70-year-old Swiss citizen whose father saved Jews during the Holocaust, insisted that these comments were taken out of context. Diplomatic sources said that he is fair towards Israel, but very critical of its policies in the Palestinian territories, Yediot Aharonot reported. >>



Source >>




Just a wealth of info aren't ya? 😀

BTW, now that I see the name, it was Kofi Annan who has already made the claim it was a massacre without being there.
 
Let me see, the Red Cross recognizes the Christian Cross and Muslim Cresent, but NOT the Star of David... and we're supposed to believe they're not being anti-semetic?

Riiiiiiiight.
rolleye.gif
 


<< "If we're going to have the Shield of David (as an accepted symbol for relief workers), why would we not have to accept the swastika?"
 >>



explain to me what context could justify such a ridiculous statement??

how can anyone in any context compare the shield of david to the swastika and not understand the ramifications??
 


<< But its not a "massacre" by any definition until we know more regardless of who is to blame. "The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly" is a very specific definition. >>



Well, there is few things we can agree on. People died there. Palestinians claim that the dead number in several hundred. Israelis claim it's one hunded at most. Now we need to determine what could be considered to be a "large number of humans". 50? 100? 300? 500? I don't think there is an official concensus on what is "large number of humans", it all depends on the circumstances.



<< Just a wealth of info aren't ya? 😀 >>



Yep. I live to please 😀



<< BTW, now that I see the name, it was Kofi Annan who has already made the claim it was a massacre without being there. >>



He could be thinking along the same lines that I do: alot of people died. And altrough exact numbers are still unknown, it could be considered to be a massacre. But it seems that the definition differs from person to person. And saying that it was a massacre is not biased towards either party, since it could be caused by either the IDF or the palestinians. And that's why the fact-finding mission is going there.

Oooops, workday is over, time to head back home 🙂
 


<< Let me see, the Red Cross recognizes the Christian Cross and Muslim Cresent, but NOT the Star of David... and we're supposed to believe they're not being anti-semetic?

Riiiiiiiight.
rolleye.gif
>>



It could all just boil down to raw numbers: There are ALOT of christians and muslims, there are very few jews. Why should jewish religion get special treatment? Why not accept all the religious symbols around the world as symbols for aid-workers? Sooner or later, it would get confusing.
 
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