Mass franchise democracy: the greatest manifestation of the communist ideal

[Dissipate]

Has anyone ever considered the fact that western democracies have the largest welfare states and wealthiest governments out of all the nations today and from history?

If you think about it, mass franchise democracy is about as good as it can ever going to get for socialism. If a state allows some form of capitalism to exist it gets the benefits of division of labor, competitive pricing and many other benefits of capitalism. So the idea is to use capitalism as a sort of beast of burden. You allow it to exist, but watch over it closely and simply tax the maximum amount possible out of it.

In order to keep the whole scam going you allow everyone (including the productive members of society) to vote. This placates the taxpayers and gives them a false sense of security that they have a say in government. You also allow them to lobby to get special interest legislation passed for their businesses and professions.

However, little do these taxpayers know that they are severely outnumbered by the non-tax payers, whose marginal cost for an additional government program or additional revenue for existing programs is almost 0. For those who want to reduce the 'cost' of government, the political battle is uphill and nearly impossible.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" can not be realized under communism since some kind of free market is necessary for there to be a price system and division of labor. Division of labor in a market is a necessary pre-condition for the expression of people's ability. The division of labor of communism on the other hand is arbitrary and insane.

The communist ideal is best realized in a mass franchise democracy in which a limited form of capitalism is allowed to exist which acts as an engine of prosperity for government expropriators. Any socialist who is clever enough will have figured this out and will have quickly abandoned any hope of communism being able to sustain a welfare state for any period of time.

Mass franchise democracy is the new communism of the 21st century.

 

[sandorski]

You are half right. Yes, this is as good as Socialism will ever get, however, it is also as good as Capitalism will ever get. There is no perfect system, there is no pot of gold at the end of the Idealism rainbow.

 

[Moonbeam]

"Has anyone ever considered the fact that western democracies have the largest welfare states and wealthiest governments out of all the nations today and from history?"

Don't they also have the most personal wealth and highest standards of living?

"If you think about it, mass franchise democracy is about as good as it can ever going to get for socialism."

Aren't you are asserting facts not in evidence?

"If a state allows some form of capitalism to exist it gets the benefits of division of labor, competitive pricing and many other benefits of capitalism. So the idea is to use capitalism as a sort of beast of burden. You allow it to exist, but watch over it closely and simply tax the maximum amount possible out of it."

Who is this mythical you that has this idea?

"In order to keep the whole scam going you allow everyone (including the productive members of society) to vote."

Where was it established we are dealing with a scam? Who is running it?

"This placates the taxpayers and gives them a false sense of security that they have a say in government."

Where have you shown it is a false sense. I thought votes got counted.

"You also allow them to lobby to get special interest legislation passed for their businesses and professions."

Here we go with that mythical "you" again. I thought anybody can lobby.

"However, little do these taxpayers know that they are severely outnumbered by the non-tax payers, whose marginal cost for an additional government program or additional revenue for existing programs is almost 0."

But non-tax payers don't have much income to tax so that almost 0 in your opinion may be a really big deal to them, no? And what makes you so much smarter than the average voter? All the gripping I hear about the welfare class leads me to assume that everybody is aware of every move they make.

"For those who want to reduce the 'cost' of government, the political battle is uphill and nearly impossible."

If you think it's hard to decrease the size of government try getting more money for decent schools. What's harder is expanding government to serve the people, no?

""From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" can not be realized under communism since some kind of free market is necessary for there to be a price system and division of labor."

Where was this established?

"Division of labor in a market is a necessary pre-condition for the expression of people's ability. The division of labor of communism on the other hand is arbitrary and insane."

When did we acquire the capacity to prove a thesis simply by saying it's true? Arbitrary and insane sound pretty personal and subjective.

"The communist ideal is best realized in a mass franchise democracy in which a limited form of capitalism is allowed to exist which acts as an engine of prosperity for government expropriators. Any socialist who is clever enough will have figured this out and will have quickly abandoned any hope of communism being able to sustain a welfare state for any period of time."

Full circle by going in circles. Wee! Do those government expropriators pay taxes?

Mass franchise democracy is the new communism of the 21st century.[/quote]

 

[fskimospy]

Ugh. Looks like someone just read Atlas Shrugged, or the Fountainhead. Real quick... Ayn Rand is both a terrible author, and an absurd political hack. Her books are long winded and devoid of characterization... if you could even call the things in her books characters as they all act exactly alike, in the manner of absurd caricatures and props for scoring political points that can only be made when you get to set all the terms of the argument.

Now why do you think you tax the hell out of the "taxpayers"? (which you seem to be implying that the very rich are the only people who are productive/create significant tax revenue/wealth... which is crazy anyway). Now its either because everyone else is lazy and is trying to ride off of the coattails of the Captains Of Industry (Ayn Rand style), or maybe its because the redistribution of the excess wealth that the rest of the working classes create which is disproportionately shifted to the upper classes in a non-regulated capitalistic environment... that redistribution of wealth not only corrects for some of the largest failings of capitalism, but it is what keeps the lower classes from killing the upper ones.

You think the upper class gets nothing for their taxes? Not only do they recieve FAR more of the benefits of government then any working class person. (oh, they got 2 grand in food stamps this year? That rich person got a 5 million dollar no bid contract) They get to live and perpetuate a system with disproportionately rewards them for the work they do.

When wealth disparity gets too bad, you get a french revolution, a russian revolution, a cuban revolution, and so on.. and so on. There is a reason why the richest people in African and Central and South American kleptocracies live behind razor wire and walls of armed guards. It's more then just crime.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Ugh. Looks like someone just read Atlas Shrugged, or the Fountainhead. Real quick... Ayn Rand is both a terrible author, and an absurd political hack. Her books are long winded and devoid of characterization... if you could even call the things in her books characters as they all act exactly alike, in the manner of absurd caricatures and props for scoring political points that can only be made when you get to set all the terms of the argument.

Oh yeah, you have completely classified me. I'm a Rand-Roid on a mission. :roll:

Do you realize how childish your assumptions are? Quick! A Rand-Roid! Classify them, compartmentalize them and expose them!

Maybe I should start doing this to conservatives and liberals. "Looks like someone has read Edmund Burke!" or "Looks like someone has read John Rawls!" Expose, expose! Compartmentalize compartmentalize!

Now why do you think you tax the hell out of the "taxpayers"? (which you seem to be implying that the very rich are the only people who are productive/create significant tax revenue/wealth... which is crazy anyway).

Where did I mention the very rich? I was referring mostly to the top 50% of earners which includes millions of non-rich people.

Now its either because everyone else is lazy and is trying to ride off of the coattails of the Captains Of Industry (Ayn Rand style), or maybe its because the redistribution of the excess wealth that the rest of the working classes create which is disproportionately shifted to the upper classes in a non-regulated capitalistic environment... that redistribution of wealth not only corrects for some of the largest failings of capitalism, but it is what keeps the lower classes from killing the upper ones.

Excess wealth? What excess wealth? Have you ever actually tried to start a real business? If you have you are a hypocrite living off of other's 'excess wealth,' or you have not and have no idea how difficult it is to become a 'slave master' living off of other people's 'excess wealth.' Anyone who is upset with other's using their 'excess wealth' should start their own business. Oh wait, that requires capital and risk.... which requires getting off your butt, finding investors and capital, and performing a whole list of other tasks, can't do that! If there was such a profitable scam that allowed people to live off of other's excess wealth in luxury then everyone would save up all of their money and start a business. It would be the ultimate get rich quick scheme.

You think the upper class gets nothing for their taxes? Not only do they recieve FAR more of the benefits of government then any working class person. (oh, they got 2 grand in food stamps this year? That rich person got a 5 million dollar no bid contract) They get to live and perpetuate a system with disproportionately rewards them for the work they do.

No, I don't think any class gets much for their taxes, except for one. The bulk of taxes is consumed directly by the political class itself. Congressmen, Senators, high level bureaucrats, paid 'experts,' as well as many others with direct connections to the political class such as defense contractors and pharma. That doesn't stop socialists from attempting to use the state to help out the 'little guy' though.

When wealth disparity gets too bad, you get a french revolution, a russian revolution, a cuban revolution, and so on.. and so on. There is a reason why the richest people in African and Central and South American kleptocracies live behind razor wire and walls of armed guards. It's more then just crime.

Most of those people got rich either through their direct exercise of political power or through their connections to their corrupt governments. Oh wait, you actually thought that foreign aide actually went to the 'people?'

 

[babylon5]

Sure, blame problems on the poor.

Haliburton moving to Dubai to avoid paying taxes is worst. Our soldiers (some of them come from poor background you so hated) fight and die partly for corporation like Hailburton to make money off US taxpayers. And you're pointing finger at the poor? Shame on you.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Sure, blame problems on the poor.

Haliburton moving to Dubai to avoid paying taxes is worst. Our soldiers (some of them come from poor background you so hated) fight and die partly for corporation like Hailburton to make money off US taxpayers. And you're pointing finger at the poor? Shame on you.

This has been discussed by myself and others here who are CPA'a in int'l tax; Haliburton remains subject to USA taxation. Therre is no indication whatsoever of any tax motive in moving HQ offshore.

US chartered corp's, like US citizens, remain subject to US taxation no matter where they operate/live or derive their income.

Fern

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Sure, blame problems on the poor.

Haliburton moving to Dubai to avoid paying taxes is worst. Our soldiers (some of them come from poor background you so hated) fight and die partly for corporation like Hailburton to make money off US taxpayers. And you're pointing finger at the poor? Shame on you.

Who said that they hate the poor? You sound like Dave, shame on you.

 

[Termagant]

little do these taxpayers know that they are severely outnumbered by the non-tax payers

Non tax payers severely outnumber taxpayers? Does non tax payers include retirees and little children? How about we just eat old people and children, then everything will be fair.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
When wealth disparity gets too bad, you get a french revolution, a russian revolution, a cuban revolution, and so on.. and so on.

Government and socialism is the price the wealthy pay not to have to worry about their lives. Govenrmtn in a way serves as a bribe to stablize society and prevent rebelion. Sad but true.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: babylon5
Sure, blame problems on the poor.

Haliburton moving to Dubai to avoid paying taxes is worst. Our soldiers (some of them come from poor background you so hated) fight and die partly for corporation like Hailburton to make money off US taxpayers. And you're pointing finger at the poor? Shame on you.

This has been discussed by myself and others here who are CPA'a in int'l tax; Haliburton remains subject to USA taxation. Therre is no indication whatsoever of any tax motive in moving HQ offshore.

US chartered corp's, like US citizens, remain subject to US taxation no matter where they operate/live or derive their income.

Fern

Damn you for providing truth and facts in P&N. Damn you!

 

[johnnobts]

there's two americas all right: the sensible and the gullible