DrunkenSano
Diamond Member
- Aug 8, 2008
- 3,892
- 490
- 126
Likewise, for all future EA games now, I will be waiting for the $10 bargain bin. Even if it is hyped up like crazy.
irishScott
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2006
- 21,568
- 3
- 0
My thoughts (copy-pasted from my thread on bioware forums)
The EC: Am I happy? Am I satisfied? Should you care?
The third question I cannot answer as the following is just my opinion.
The first two questions summarize the basic criteria I used to judge the EC.
TLDR: Am I happy? No. Am I satisfied? Moderately. The second question is based on my feelings on the game in isolation. The first question is influenced by my feelings towards Bioware's writing quality and handling of the endings, and better options (indoc theory) they obviously ignored, and the ME series in total.
*SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS BELOW*
I'll start off with the 2nd question:
Am I satisfied? Somewhat. Given the plot direction Bioware decided to take they did about the best they could in terms of improvement. I'd say the game is orders of magnitude more satisfying regardless of which ending is picked, due in large part to the added detail in conversation with the catalyst. The explanation of his origins and
the in-depth explanations of each choice helped me feel like he was more a part of the universe and less like a shoe-horned in plot device.
When you pick the "reject all choices" ending, his voice turns into Harbinger's, in a very slight nod to indoc theory's basic themes. In my opinion, the catalyst is not an independent entity, but essentially harbinger. This is further backed up when the catalyst states that he is the combined intelligence of all reapers. Given that Harbinger is the
established authority in reaper society, it would make sense that his consciousness would take up the lion's share of the catalyst. After learning this, I felt not that I was talking to star-kid, but essentially to harbinger.
This calls into question the nature of the catalyst/reaper relationship. Note the catalyst states he is the combined "intelligence" of the reapers. It is important to note the use of "is". Not "has" the combined intelligence of the reapers, but "is" the combined intelligence of the reapers. This presents the largely unanswerable question of how much is consciousness influenced by intelligence; but if the catalyst's very being is the reapers' knowledge, then the differences in their consciousness must be very slight IMO. Therefore, I operate under the assumption that the catalyst is essentially Harbinger, taken form in a manner that Shepard would find sympathetic. Perhaps Shepard is even partially indoctrinated as per common theory. That belief alone effectively eliminates most issues with star-kid IMO.
Now onto the endings themselves:
Rejection/*BOOM HEADSHOT* ending: I found this to be the most satisfying. Some have stated that it is a slap in the face to fans, but I'm not so sure. It is repeatably stated that we cannot defeat the reapers conventionally, and this is borne out by how badly they're kicking the ass of the combined forces of the galaxy. It makes sense that we would eventually fall but, being the first collection of races to complete the crucible and pass down a complete archive, the next cycle defeats the reapers. In fact I'd love a new trilogy describing the events of that cycle, or perhaps 2 games that begins with discovery of the archive.
Personally, I feel this is the decision most Shepards would make. It holds true to his/her character, and the effects are accurate enough.
Control ending: I found this to be the most likely ending for a paragon Shepard. It is essentially selflessness personified. Shepard gives up everything he has to safeguard and lead the galaxy. The ethical implications are complicated, but basically Shepard becomes the ideal benevolent dictator. As far as futures go, that doesn't sound so bad if you think about it.
Synthesis ending: I found this to be the most intriguing, given the obvious physiological implications, but unfortunately these were not explored in much detail. Effectively it's the control ending where no one died and the future is not managed by Shepard-led reapers but by the simultaneous interconnection of all life. Effectively a synthetic version of Issac Asimov's Galaxia from the Foundation series. This seems to be the most peaceful and ideal ending. No one, not even the reapers, dies. Even Shepard doesn't so much die as get "distributed", much like Legion.
Destroy ending: Definitely the renegade options. Screw the Geth, screw EDI, I'm in this to save what I love most. However even this is somewhat satisfying as it is the only ending where Shepard obviously lives, and his/her LI remains hopeful. I'd love to see an expansion on this ending. Even if Shepard dies in the rubble, they did bring him back once from even more catastrophic circumstances. Also note we never see the Geth or EDI destroyed, only the reapers. It's quite possible that both survived, given the "hole" that opens up in the wave around the Normandy and the fact that the blast wave doesn't seem to cover the entire galaxy. Remember the Geth are AIs now, even one lone survivor could restart the race, and it's been proven by the very existence of things like the crucible and Javik that reaper-tech is far from perfect at wiping out everything.
Now onto the first question: Am I happy? I'll add a "hell" to that "no".
Bioware, you brought an F up to a C+. I'll give you credit for that, but the fact is Mass Effect failed in
its promise. I don't know if it's you, EA, or a combination, but you failed. You created a 3 game Deus Ex with an extra ending and a cosmetically fluid universe. Our choices do not do diddly squat. Our war assets do not matter. We are led down a path with many sub-paths, but one beginning and 4 preset ends. Now granted this creates a fluid universe that is intriguing to explore, but that's not what we were sold or promised. We were promised a world where our choices led to distinct endings. Now I'm not asking for a billion different endings based on every conversational choice, but how about just the major ones?
Save/kill the rachni? Doesn't matter.
Save/kill the council? Doesn't matter.
Cure/Don't cure the genophage? Doesn't matter.
Save/Destroy the collector base? Doesn't matter.
Save/Destroy key characters? Doesn't matter, here's a bland stock character for you.
I could go on, but you essentially created a universe where the Hiroshima bomb could be dropped several times a year and a few years later it doesn't affect anything other than the color of the Japanese flag. If I didn't save the Rachni in game one, I expected to be missing a key ally in game 3. All I got was a couple hundred war asset points that are easily made up for. Likewise making a human-based council should increase diplomatic
difficulty in uniting the galaxy. Keeping the collector base should make Cerberus units stronger/introduce more advanced units. Just to name a few ways to make these decisions matter. I'll even call them relatively "simple", since you've done tasks just as complex in the work we've seen. The endings were also a miss. A much improved miss, but a miss all the same. Why couldn't there be a more concrete reason for the reapers? Why do we even need one? Why is star-kid's logic still circular and make no sense? This whole thing was caused because some idiot race made a flawed AI they couldn't control? And why didn't you use indoctrination theory?
That theory was gold. You could have claimed it as your own, and we wouldn't have cared. It would have turned the whole situation into a sad mistake and you would have lost much fewer fans and customers IMO.
But that's the issue here, Bioware's claims of "artistic integrity", while no doubt mostly marketing spiel, were probably grounded in reality. Here's the thing Bioware: We were sold this game on being able to build our own future. To create our own character and to choose the fate of our universe, within limits. I mean no offense, but I know no one who bought this game to appreciate its "artistic qualities". We bought a "game". Now I do not mean to denigrate the artistic components of video games, but I think as the creator of a video game you misunderstood its perception. You saw it as a creation where you were conveying a story to readers, much like writing a book. We saw it as creating our own story, our own universe. And you sold it to us based on that perspective. You pulled a bait-and-switch Bioware, you changed the rules halfway through the game. That is where the feelings of betrayal came from, as well as most of the outcry. You refused to create a story with the players as promised, and yanked the book from our hands.
Getting back to the endings, why aren't there more? Include a happy ending, but make it near impossible to get. Make it require a perfect sequence of events through all 3 games for it to work. Then add the opposite extreme, and other endings in between to varying degrees as you see fit. the current endings, with a little creativity, could be made to fit quite well in that in-between territory.
To bottom line my feelings on Bioware as a whole: They failed in their promises, Casey Hudson outright
lied, and the marketing spiel we got when we protested was despicably condescending and did little more than display corporate arrogance, with a little artistic flair. I will never pre-order another Bioware game and will not purchase until extensive independent reviewers give the all-clear. My faith in the brand is very much shaken.
To end on a positive note, the EC did salve my feelings on the endings such that I will replay even the entire series, more for the purposes of exploring other options (I never romanced Liara or Tali, for instance) and the fact that the series as a whole, if judged as a traditional, linear RPG, is quite good. I hope that Bioware learns from this experience and redeems itself in the future. Hell on that day I'll send the involved employees cake. Please Bioware? For cake?
The EC: Am I happy? Am I satisfied? Should you care?
The third question I cannot answer as the following is just my opinion.
The first two questions summarize the basic criteria I used to judge the EC.
TLDR: Am I happy? No. Am I satisfied? Moderately. The second question is based on my feelings on the game in isolation. The first question is influenced by my feelings towards Bioware's writing quality and handling of the endings, and better options (indoc theory) they obviously ignored, and the ME series in total.
*SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS BELOW*
I'll start off with the 2nd question:
Am I satisfied? Somewhat. Given the plot direction Bioware decided to take they did about the best they could in terms of improvement. I'd say the game is orders of magnitude more satisfying regardless of which ending is picked, due in large part to the added detail in conversation with the catalyst. The explanation of his origins and
the in-depth explanations of each choice helped me feel like he was more a part of the universe and less like a shoe-horned in plot device.
When you pick the "reject all choices" ending, his voice turns into Harbinger's, in a very slight nod to indoc theory's basic themes. In my opinion, the catalyst is not an independent entity, but essentially harbinger. This is further backed up when the catalyst states that he is the combined intelligence of all reapers. Given that Harbinger is the
established authority in reaper society, it would make sense that his consciousness would take up the lion's share of the catalyst. After learning this, I felt not that I was talking to star-kid, but essentially to harbinger.
This calls into question the nature of the catalyst/reaper relationship. Note the catalyst states he is the combined "intelligence" of the reapers. It is important to note the use of "is". Not "has" the combined intelligence of the reapers, but "is" the combined intelligence of the reapers. This presents the largely unanswerable question of how much is consciousness influenced by intelligence; but if the catalyst's very being is the reapers' knowledge, then the differences in their consciousness must be very slight IMO. Therefore, I operate under the assumption that the catalyst is essentially Harbinger, taken form in a manner that Shepard would find sympathetic. Perhaps Shepard is even partially indoctrinated as per common theory. That belief alone effectively eliminates most issues with star-kid IMO.
Now onto the endings themselves:
Rejection/*BOOM HEADSHOT* ending: I found this to be the most satisfying. Some have stated that it is a slap in the face to fans, but I'm not so sure. It is repeatably stated that we cannot defeat the reapers conventionally, and this is borne out by how badly they're kicking the ass of the combined forces of the galaxy. It makes sense that we would eventually fall but, being the first collection of races to complete the crucible and pass down a complete archive, the next cycle defeats the reapers. In fact I'd love a new trilogy describing the events of that cycle, or perhaps 2 games that begins with discovery of the archive.
Personally, I feel this is the decision most Shepards would make. It holds true to his/her character, and the effects are accurate enough.
Control ending: I found this to be the most likely ending for a paragon Shepard. It is essentially selflessness personified. Shepard gives up everything he has to safeguard and lead the galaxy. The ethical implications are complicated, but basically Shepard becomes the ideal benevolent dictator. As far as futures go, that doesn't sound so bad if you think about it.
Synthesis ending: I found this to be the most intriguing, given the obvious physiological implications, but unfortunately these were not explored in much detail. Effectively it's the control ending where no one died and the future is not managed by Shepard-led reapers but by the simultaneous interconnection of all life. Effectively a synthetic version of Issac Asimov's Galaxia from the Foundation series. This seems to be the most peaceful and ideal ending. No one, not even the reapers, dies. Even Shepard doesn't so much die as get "distributed", much like Legion.
Destroy ending: Definitely the renegade options. Screw the Geth, screw EDI, I'm in this to save what I love most. However even this is somewhat satisfying as it is the only ending where Shepard obviously lives, and his/her LI remains hopeful. I'd love to see an expansion on this ending. Even if Shepard dies in the rubble, they did bring him back once from even more catastrophic circumstances. Also note we never see the Geth or EDI destroyed, only the reapers. It's quite possible that both survived, given the "hole" that opens up in the wave around the Normandy and the fact that the blast wave doesn't seem to cover the entire galaxy. Remember the Geth are AIs now, even one lone survivor could restart the race, and it's been proven by the very existence of things like the crucible and Javik that reaper-tech is far from perfect at wiping out everything.
Now onto the first question: Am I happy? I'll add a "hell" to that "no".
Bioware, you brought an F up to a C+. I'll give you credit for that, but the fact is Mass Effect failed in
its promise. I don't know if it's you, EA, or a combination, but you failed. You created a 3 game Deus Ex with an extra ending and a cosmetically fluid universe. Our choices do not do diddly squat. Our war assets do not matter. We are led down a path with many sub-paths, but one beginning and 4 preset ends. Now granted this creates a fluid universe that is intriguing to explore, but that's not what we were sold or promised. We were promised a world where our choices led to distinct endings. Now I'm not asking for a billion different endings based on every conversational choice, but how about just the major ones?
Save/kill the rachni? Doesn't matter.
Save/kill the council? Doesn't matter.
Cure/Don't cure the genophage? Doesn't matter.
Save/Destroy the collector base? Doesn't matter.
Save/Destroy key characters? Doesn't matter, here's a bland stock character for you.
I could go on, but you essentially created a universe where the Hiroshima bomb could be dropped several times a year and a few years later it doesn't affect anything other than the color of the Japanese flag. If I didn't save the Rachni in game one, I expected to be missing a key ally in game 3. All I got was a couple hundred war asset points that are easily made up for. Likewise making a human-based council should increase diplomatic
difficulty in uniting the galaxy. Keeping the collector base should make Cerberus units stronger/introduce more advanced units. Just to name a few ways to make these decisions matter. I'll even call them relatively "simple", since you've done tasks just as complex in the work we've seen. The endings were also a miss. A much improved miss, but a miss all the same. Why couldn't there be a more concrete reason for the reapers? Why do we even need one? Why is star-kid's logic still circular and make no sense? This whole thing was caused because some idiot race made a flawed AI they couldn't control? And why didn't you use indoctrination theory?
That theory was gold. You could have claimed it as your own, and we wouldn't have cared. It would have turned the whole situation into a sad mistake and you would have lost much fewer fans and customers IMO.
But that's the issue here, Bioware's claims of "artistic integrity", while no doubt mostly marketing spiel, were probably grounded in reality. Here's the thing Bioware: We were sold this game on being able to build our own future. To create our own character and to choose the fate of our universe, within limits. I mean no offense, but I know no one who bought this game to appreciate its "artistic qualities". We bought a "game". Now I do not mean to denigrate the artistic components of video games, but I think as the creator of a video game you misunderstood its perception. You saw it as a creation where you were conveying a story to readers, much like writing a book. We saw it as creating our own story, our own universe. And you sold it to us based on that perspective. You pulled a bait-and-switch Bioware, you changed the rules halfway through the game. That is where the feelings of betrayal came from, as well as most of the outcry. You refused to create a story with the players as promised, and yanked the book from our hands.
Getting back to the endings, why aren't there more? Include a happy ending, but make it near impossible to get. Make it require a perfect sequence of events through all 3 games for it to work. Then add the opposite extreme, and other endings in between to varying degrees as you see fit. the current endings, with a little creativity, could be made to fit quite well in that in-between territory.
To bottom line my feelings on Bioware as a whole: They failed in their promises, Casey Hudson outright
lied, and the marketing spiel we got when we protested was despicably condescending and did little more than display corporate arrogance, with a little artistic flair. I will never pre-order another Bioware game and will not purchase until extensive independent reviewers give the all-clear. My faith in the brand is very much shaken.
To end on a positive note, the EC did salve my feelings on the endings such that I will replay even the entire series, more for the purposes of exploring other options (I never romanced Liara or Tali, for instance) and the fact that the series as a whole, if judged as a traditional, linear RPG, is quite good. I hope that Bioware learns from this experience and redeems itself in the future. Hell on that day I'll send the involved employees cake. Please Bioware? For cake?
My feelings basically mirror the consensus here. Heck, I think Bioware did a great job salvaging what I thought was unsalvageable. The endings themselves are still fundamentally flawed, but I'm satisfied now that they've shown the consequences of the decisions.
I'm now at least willing to consider future DLC purchases for ME3. I won't preorder any DLC; I'll wait for overall reviews first. However, the EC restored some of my faith in the ME universe.
I'm now at least willing to consider future DLC purchases for ME3. I won't preorder any DLC; I'll wait for overall reviews first. However, the EC restored some of my faith in the ME universe.
The endings are still dumb and full of plot holes, but they're not completely retarded like the originals.
Indoctrination theory is still far and away better and more intriguing than the crap bioware came up with.
Indoctrination theory is still far and away better and more intriguing than the crap bioware came up with.
I would've preferred the indoctrination theory as well... but I like the new endings better than the originals. I just gotta say how moving the soundtrack is in general and especially in the ending. Kudos for that.
thejunglegod
Golden Member
- Feb 12, 2012
- 1,358
- 36
- 91
Yeah, good enough, but not spectacular as the supposed Indoctrination theory which still manages to bring goosebumps. How great would it have been that the original ending was just a dream sequence(shephard fighting his indoctrination) and later wakes up from the rubble to lead a mighty fightback.
Never mind though cos that ship has sailed. At least we got some closure and thank god for that. I Lol'd when Hackett shouts over the radio " The crucible is charged and about to fire. Get the hell outta there".
Anyways, I can say that I the major gripes got sorted out and some of us may have to push unanswered questions away and ignore them completely and take games less seriously for a change.
I hope they do'nt end the series here. They can build this up more. Something like the Krogans deciding to take over the galaxy and the Rachni trying to do the same. TIM alive somewhere as an AI and controlling the Geth. And Shephard again has to be recalled to save the world/galaxy. They still show Shephard taking a deep breath in one of the endings, don't they?
Never mind though cos that ship has sailed. At least we got some closure and thank god for that. I Lol'd when Hackett shouts over the radio " The crucible is charged and about to fire. Get the hell outta there".
Anyways, I can say that I the major gripes got sorted out and some of us may have to push unanswered questions away and ignore them completely and take games less seriously for a change.
I hope they do'nt end the series here. They can build this up more. Something like the Krogans deciding to take over the galaxy and the Rachni trying to do the same. TIM alive somewhere as an AI and controlling the Geth. And Shephard again has to be recalled to save the world/galaxy. They still show Shephard taking a deep breath in one of the endings, don't they?
Nintendesert
Diamond Member
- Mar 28, 2010
- 7,761
- 5
- 0
Yeah, good enough, but not spectacular as the supposed Indoctrination theory which still manages to bring goosebumps. How great would it have been that the original ending was just a dream sequence(shephard fighting his indoctrination) and later wakes up from the rubble to lead a mighty fightback.
Never mind though cos that ship has sailed. At least we got some closure and thank god for that. I Lol'd when Hackett shouts over the radio " The crucible is charged and about to fire. Get the hell outta there".
Anyways, I can say that I the major gripes got sorted out and some of us may have to push unanswered questions away and ignore them completely and take games less seriously for a change.
I hope they do'nt end the series here. They can build this up more. Something like the Krogans deciding to take over the galaxy and the Rachni trying to do the same. TIM alive somewhere as an AI and controlling the Geth. And Shephard again has to be recalled to save the world/galaxy. They still show Shephard taking a deep breath in one of the endings, don't they?
Yes, in the red ending.
I just played through the 4 endings. I really enjoyed what they've added, especially the extra chat options with the catalyst and the bonus narrated sequences. My favorite ending by far was the control one. I loved Shepard's comments at the end.
Oh, and we got to see the Quarians' face!
All in all, I think Bioware did a good job with this DLC.
Oh, and we got to see the Quarians' face!
All in all, I think Bioware did a good job with this DLC.
Last edited:
Stuka87
Diamond Member
- Dec 10, 2010
- 6,240
- 2,559
- 136
I think the ends are *WAY* better than the originals. I still find the over all ending of the trilogy to be lacking, as I wanted my decision to have a bigger impact like others have said. Instead you can choose any ending regardless of what you have done throughout the game.
But I am still a gigantic fan of the Mass Effect universe and look forward to another game.
But I am still a gigantic fan of the Mass Effect universe and look forward to another game.
thejunglegod
Golden Member
- Feb 12, 2012
- 1,358
- 36
- 91
BTW, are the Mass Relays still destroyed in the end? Cos there is some sort of bubble generating around them before the camera zooms out.
Doesn't matter though. This was actually one of the plot holes in the original ending right? But it is not really a plot-hole since, even if the mass relays were destroyed, they could still be remade. Kind of like how if a satellite gets destroyed, we can rebuild another one and send it in orbit.
All in all, the control ending was the best, closely followed by the synthesis one. The red one was weird cos it showed Shepard breathing again in the end. WTF?
And the worst one was definitely the rejection ending. How sad was that
Doesn't matter though. This was actually one of the plot holes in the original ending right? But it is not really a plot-hole since, even if the mass relays were destroyed, they could still be remade. Kind of like how if a satellite gets destroyed, we can rebuild another one and send it in orbit.
All in all, the control ending was the best, closely followed by the synthesis one. The red one was weird cos it showed Shepard breathing again in the end. WTF?
And the worst one was definitely the rejection ending. How sad was that
BTW, are the Mass Relays still destroyed in the end? Cos there is some sort of bubble generating around them before the camera zooms out.
Doesn't matter though. This was actually one of the plot holes in the original ending right? But it is not really a plot-hole since, even if the mass relays were destroyed, they could still be remade. Kind of like how if a satellite gets destroyed, we can rebuild another one and send it in orbit.
All in all, the control ending was the best, closely followed by the synthesis one. The red one was weird cos it showed Shepard breathing again in the end. WTF?
And the worst one was definitely the rejection ending. How sad was that
No they are not destroyed, only damaged. They ending voice over also states they can be repaired.
DrunkenSano
Diamond Member
- Aug 8, 2008
- 3,892
- 490
- 126
Looks like the spinny part with the energy bubble in the middle of it exploded but the larger section remained intact. And it'd be really hard to rebuild or even build a Mass Relay since they were built way before anyone's time. It'd be on par with building something like the Crucible without the plans or building a Reaper equivalent ship.
In the original, the relays blow up which should've vaporized the whole entire system (as seen in one of the DLCs in ME2). Now the relays simply "break", the circle thingies fall off and the tip breaks off as well.
The new ending really only does 2 things:
1) explain how garrus/tali/whoever got on the fucking normandy
2) explain what happens to the galaxy afterwards and clarify what your choice actually means.
Starchild ending is still shit, but that's a subjective feeling. Overall this brings the ending quality up to what you would originally expect, not just recolored cutscenes.
Not stopping me from uninstalling ME3 though.
The new ending really only does 2 things:
1) explain how garrus/tali/whoever got on the fucking normandy
2) explain what happens to the galaxy afterwards and clarify what your choice actually means.
Starchild ending is still shit, but that's a subjective feeling. Overall this brings the ending quality up to what you would originally expect, not just recolored cutscenes.
Not stopping me from uninstalling ME3 though.
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