Must've been this one:
Lots of Boy Scouts dying these days.
Nowhere does he say, "I'm not afraid to die in war." Unfortunately, he may be indicative of our new generation of Quake-playing youth that are more interested in "deathmatches" than what is going on in the real world.
AAjax
Diamond Member
- Feb 17, 2001
- 3,798
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A Coward no, an Idiot yes. After all there have been non-cobatant objectors in the service that have served with distinction. One even won the medal of honor
Exercising his right to object is ok, saying he didnt know that killing people was in his job description proves only that he is dumber than a rock (no offence to the rocks out there)
I agree with Crazyfool completely, but I'll take it one step further. I think he's a traitor. I think we should offer 5 conscientious objectors for every POW and let the Iraqis beat the hell out of them.
And I don't want to hear a word from Insane3D either. All I can say is, your nick is appropriate. If he didn't think to leave when he was stabbing a bag of hay that was supposed to be a person while yelling, "KILL, KILL, KILL!!!" then I have no sympathy. His mother says:
His mother, Gloria Pacis, 49, said she prayed daily for her son. "I'm proud of the fact that he owned up to his reservations and was not a hypocrite," she said.
If I ever saw that woman, I'd tell her this:
Your son is a coward and a complete disgrace to himself, to his family, and to his country. He's been a pacifist (which isn't even a real belief IMO) his entire life, and yet he joined a group of the most highly-trained killers in the world. If you don't think he's a hypocrite, then you might want to go look up that word in the dictionary again.
And one more thing Insane3D, I can honestly say that I wouldn't want to be over in Iraq right now either. I'm 6'9" and I weight 345lbs. I'm a huge moving target. Not only that, but I'm horribly uncoordinated (otherwise I'd be in the NBA). I don't think I'd make a good fighter. So you know what? I didn't sign up to be one! This guy did. If he didn't want to fight, he shouldn't have signed up for the military. That's why I can say whatever I want about him.
For the record, if I'm ever called up, I won't like it, but I'll go and I'll fight with everything I've got.
Why don't guys ever admit that one of the reasons why they don't want to go to war is that they're afraid to die?
That's the main reason I wouldn't want to be in a war.
When I was younger and learned about the Vietnam war, I used to wonder how I would handle being drafted. And much thinking, I came to the conclusion that:
I'm glad I was living in a time of peace and that I wouldn't want to go to a war mainly because:
1) I'm afraid to die
2) I'm afraid of being captured and tortured
3) I don't really want to kill anyone
But I think that I would have gone (and not fled) because I'm the type of guy that generally follows orders. But I would be scared as sh!t.
Oh, yes sir...whatever you say!
It's a public forum...get used to it. They let you post don't they...that speaks volumes in of itself...
And you are calling me insane? Interesting...
your top 3 is probably exactly the same thing 99% of soldiers feel.....
Bravery is not the abscense of fear, it is courage displayed in SPITE of such fear....
I guess he has never seen the classic cinema piece staring the venerable Pauley Shore. "In the Army Now"
Even Reservists Waterboys go to war.
Today's recruits are more in it for the money or the school (not all, mind you). Patriotism is falling down the list (it might be gaining a little with the 9/11 attacks).
This guy is a wuss.
Even Reservists Waterboys go to war.
Today's recruits are more in it for the money or the school (not all, mind you). Patriotism is falling down the list (it might be gaining a little with the 9/11 attacks).
This guy is a wuss.
GagHalfrunt
Lifer
- Apr 19, 2001
- 25,284
- 1,998
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I'm going to argue on behalf of this guy, but mostly just to make this argument less one-sided. Since most of you are taking the "he's a coward" approach I thought I might offer some alternate points to consider -- so don't flame me, I just like to consider all possible positions in an argument regardless of my own personal feelings on the issue.
Most of you are stating that he should have thought things through more before committing to the military. Well, consider these two statements from the article: "Recruits also must declare whether they have conscientious objector reservations stemming from firm or fixed beliefs" and "The military acknowledges that recruits may change their views during training and allows service members an exit if they prove a religious, ethical or moral objection to war."
So, the military expects you to declare any firm or fixed beliefs when you sign up, and they acknowlege the fact that you may change any beliefs while in training.
I can remember how my belief system was pretty much in flux throughout most of my twenties. My internal questioning and struggling didn't settle until very late in my twenties, and even in my thirties I still sometimes have doubts but it's no longer the issue as it was earlier in my life. So this guy is going through a very transitional period of his adult life and what I'm suggesting is that perhaps his boot camp training was the perfect environment for these conflicting issues to come to prime. Ideally, this type of soul-searching should have occurred before joining the military, but we don't live in an ideal world where everthing happens in an orderly consecutive manner.
The article says he did seek councel from the clergy during boot camp. Of course, all the clergy can do is help him along in his struggle to come to terms with his personal beliefs. Even if his belief system were to solidify, there isn't much that can be done about his already having joined the military except to finish out his enlistment and hope the country doesn't go to war until after he's out.
Since that didn't happen, he should be allowed to plead his case, and at the very least, be given a non-combat job if they should find in his favor. Fortunately, the military does acknowledge the fact that such instances deserve a fair hearing, rather than making the forgone conclusion that he's a coward.
Most of you are stating that he should have thought things through more before committing to the military. Well, consider these two statements from the article: "Recruits also must declare whether they have conscientious objector reservations stemming from firm or fixed beliefs" and "The military acknowledges that recruits may change their views during training and allows service members an exit if they prove a religious, ethical or moral objection to war."
So, the military expects you to declare any firm or fixed beliefs when you sign up, and they acknowlege the fact that you may change any beliefs while in training.
I can remember how my belief system was pretty much in flux throughout most of my twenties. My internal questioning and struggling didn't settle until very late in my twenties, and even in my thirties I still sometimes have doubts but it's no longer the issue as it was earlier in my life. So this guy is going through a very transitional period of his adult life and what I'm suggesting is that perhaps his boot camp training was the perfect environment for these conflicting issues to come to prime. Ideally, this type of soul-searching should have occurred before joining the military, but we don't live in an ideal world where everthing happens in an orderly consecutive manner.
The article says he did seek councel from the clergy during boot camp. Of course, all the clergy can do is help him along in his struggle to come to terms with his personal beliefs. Even if his belief system were to solidify, there isn't much that can be done about his already having joined the military except to finish out his enlistment and hope the country doesn't go to war until after he's out.
Since that didn't happen, he should be allowed to plead his case, and at the very least, be given a non-combat job if they should find in his favor. Fortunately, the military does acknowledge the fact that such instances deserve a fair hearing, rather than making the forgone conclusion that he's a coward.
mastertech01
Moderator Emeritus Elite Member
- Nov 13, 1999
- 11,875
- 282
- 126
They will likely just discharge him with a failure to adapt discharge. If he got any sign up bonus etc, he will have to repay it. At one time the military used to be real hard on people who changed their status to Objector, for going AWOL, etc but now adays there are so many people lined up to get in the services and tough competition for the better jobs that its just too much expense and bad press in the long run to push it very far.
I cannot fault him for not wanting to kill people... but joining the MARINES and not wanting to kill people? Yeah, he's a moron.
If I didn't want to swim I shouldn't sign up to be a lifeguard. Just because they sit on those chairs most of the time doesn't mean that going in the water isn't their job. Marines are paid to fight and kill people. That it their job. The Marines don't train you how to shoot M-16's and fight in hand to hand combat so you can be a better peace activist, they teach you that so you can kill and help our nation win wars.
I think the most likely explanation is that he's an idiot.
If he was smart and a coward, he'd probably still go, since he would realize that with the number of casualties on our side, he's pretty safe going over there.
If he was smart and a coward, he'd probably still go, since he would realize that with the number of casualties on our side, he's pretty safe going over there.
I don't like describing the job of a marine is to kill. I prefer to say their job is to defend our country.
GagHalfrunt
Lifer
- Apr 19, 2001
- 25,284
- 1,998
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No, I think he was looking for a job and figured 3 squares a day and a dental plan on Uncle Sams dime was a good way to go. He gambled that he'd get nice cushy guard duty somewhere and lots of buddies to go out drinking with when off-duty. Now he gets the call to do the duty he signed up for and he's suddenly a pacifist? C'mon, even the most bleeding-heart, "nobody has to take responsibility for their actions" of the Saddam lovers in here can't possibly buy that he had a change of heart at exactly this moment in time. If he truly was stupid enough to join the Marines without knowing that there might be fighting involved, he would have lacked the ability to tie his own shoes, figure out which end of the rifle to hold or any of the other tasks necessary to get through basic. He's a coward that took his pay when there was no danger and is trying to run away when the fighting starts. He belongs in a military prison.
why not send him to Saddam as a gift, a soldier for HIS army, then he can tell Saddam he doesn't want to fight.....:Q
And how do you think they defend our country? By giving out hugs? They give them M-16's and grenades for a reason, and it's not to spread love I'll tell you that. They are the muscle of the military. They are not "defending" us right now anyway, they're attacking someone else on their home turf.
The guy is a coward. He first showed his cowardice by not having a backbone and standing up for himself to a recruiter, then showed his yellow day-glow belly with his recent "remarks".
Their protecting us from the potential use of WMD's on the civilized world and freeing the iraqi people from a evil dictator.
Maybe when he joined up he figured that if he was ever asked to kill people, there would be a solid reason behind it. I wouldn't want to kill people so that George W Bush can settle his personal grudges either.
I'm all for our decision to go to war in Iraq, but I never believed the official "marketing" for it. I think it's more about removing a competitor in the region... a competitor who strives to be a big player in the region and will possibly strangle our supply of mideast oil later on down the road. Freeing the Iraqi people will be a side effect of that, but they are surely not our primary concern, regardless of what they tell you.
I don't know if you remember, but back in the 80's we were all about helping the Afghani people in Afghanistan. It just so happened that they were fighting the Soviet Union at the time. So we supplied the people with equipment and training. Once the Soviet Union withdrew, so did we, and we left those people hanging. I don't know who believed we were there to help the people, we just used them as a pawn in a bigger battle (Cold War).
I'm American and I support our causes, but I know that if there wasn't oil under that region, we wouldn't waste our time with them or their people.
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