Manual transmission not shifting in to 1st or 2nd

[sontakke]

Help!! 2000 Nissan Maxima 3.0 V6 (VQ engine) 5-speed, 180K, original clutch, original engine mounts, original (rusted) radiator support bracket.

My son just called and said that he is no longer able to put the stick in to 1st or 2nd gear. This happened while coming back from Charlottesville to DC on the road. Even when the engine is off, he can not put it in 1st or 2nd. He completed journey using 3rd, 4th and 5th. Reverse works. There are no abnormal noises. I do not think low fluid would do anything like this but have asked him to take off the fill plug and inspect/add fluid. I am in New England, so I can only give him hints remotely.

What can cause this symptoms? I am thinking something wrong with the shift linkage and local gas station should be able to figure this out. It does not feel something blew up inside as that would definitely make lot of noise. This looks like the left shift plane is jammed. The neutral spring feel, he tells me, is fine.

Unfortunately, he does not know any reputable shop around there. I am looking at the service manual. For "Hard to shift or will not shift" it only has few causes

1) Wrong oil / Oil level is high - Ruled out
2) Worn Shift Fork
3) Worn or damaged Baulk Ring - Internal to the transmission
Damaged Insert Spring - Internal to the transmission

I also notice there is "1st & 2nd synchronizer hub" inside the transmission and if that is cracked, it will prevent those two gears from engaging. I would think if that were the case there would be death noises coming from the transmission.

It is 3.0L engine (VQ) with either RS5F50A or RS5F50V 5-speed manual transmission. This transmission has no shift cables but has a shift control rod. I can see how if bushings are worn, it will prevent it from "clearing the gates" to go in 1s and 2nd. Although, something like that would be gradual and won't be sudden.

My research has not shown many hits on this transmission for this particular symptom. It is certainly not common.

A good mechanic should be able to figure out if it is external linkage (likely) or internal failure (unlikely) pretty easily, right???

Anybody familiar with this kind of shift control rod on a front wheel transverse mounted engine and the failure modes?

(Also posted on 5thgenmaximaforum and bobistheoilguy)

 

[JCH13]

I'm not an expert in manual transmissions by any stretch, but it sounds an awful lot like a broken 1-2 shift fork. That is what I would consider first aside from checking the basic external linkages.

 

[Zenmervolt]

The first thing I'd do is check the linkage. If it's binding or come loose it may not be moving far enough to the side to engage 1st and 2nd while still being OK for the remaining gears. Otherwise it's just pulling the transmission apart and seeing what the issue is.

ZV

 

[sontakke]

Does broken shift fork have other symptoms? If it is not external linkage, then it might be the time to junk the car :-(

 

[phucheneh]

Shift forks usually get a little bent, at most. Which means you can usually get the gear in one direction. You'd have to be shifting like a gorilla to actually break it.

I think that car uses cables, not a linkage. There is probably an issue with the cable that goes side-to-side.

What does it do when he tries to select first or second? Can he hear any mechanical noises coming from inside the trans? Does it go into the normal position for the gear without engaging it, or does it simply resist moving out of the neutral position?

It's not hard to diagnose whether it's an internal or external (linkage/cable problem). Someone just needs to watch the levers on the trans move while someone else attempts to shift, and see if they appear to be moving normally or not. If not (or you're unsure), disconnect the cables and see if the levers can be clicked between all the positions by hand.

 

[CraigRT]

I would say linkage...
Saw the same post on BITOG too! haha

 

[sontakke]

Shift forks usually get a little bent, at most. Which means you can usually get the gear in one direction. You'd have to be shifting like a gorilla to actually break it.

I think that car uses cables, not a linkage. There is probably an issue with the cable that goes side-to-side.

What does it do when he tries to select first or second? Can he hear any mechanical noises coming from inside the trans? Does it go into the normal position for the gear without engaging it, or does it simply resist moving out of the neutral position?

It's not hard to diagnose whether it's an internal or external (linkage/cable problem). Someone just needs to watch the levers on the trans move while someone else attempts to shift, and see if they appear to be moving normally or not. If not (or you're unsure), disconnect the cables and see if the levers can be clicked between all the positions by hand.

The car definitely has the linkage.

There are two rods shown in the FSM. One is fixed "support rod" and the other is the moveable "shift control rod". Both the rods end up at the trans-axle. When he tries to select 1st or 2nd, it is as if he is hitting a metal wall. He can hear something blocking the shift stick when he tries to move the lever to 1st or 2nd gear.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I think that car uses cables, not a linkage. There is probably an issue with the cable that goes side-to-side.

(1) Cables are a linkage. There are two types of linkages, cable and rod.

(2) A 2000 Maxima with a manual has a rod-type linkage.

ZV

 

[phucheneh]

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. If you actually knew how to work on cars, though, you'd find that people generally refer to solid parts that move as an assembly as 'linkage' and cables as...'cable.'

If the cable operating your throttle breaks, do you go to the parts store and tell them you need a new 'throttle linkage?'

However, I do appreciate your entirely worthless troll post. See that post above you? That's how to tell someone that they are mistaken without being...well, you.

OP- It's still likely a similar issue to what I mentioned...just a little harder to find, perhaps, since the linkage has a lot of parts and isn't as simple as two cables that are replaced as assemblies.

I would still recommend disconnecting the linkage from the trans- shouldn't be too hard, you may just have to move some simple stuff out of the way to get access (like air box, battery, or other large items sitting above the trans...nothing very involved). But this is the quickest way to know for sure if you have a linkage issue or an internal transmission issue.

I would still bet on an external issue, like a rotted out bushing- the linkage will still operate, but the extra slack from the missing rubber can make the shifter max out it's travel before it has successfully moved the synchro sleeve into place.

edit: rather, with 1 and 2 being inop, the shifter has moved all the way to the side before the the external lever has rotated all the way into place, engaging the 1-2 fork. This would explain the description of feeling like the shifter is up against a wall when you try and push/pull it into first or second gear. Look at the bushings at either end of the rod on the right/bottom of that picture.

edit again: you really only need to disconnect the part of the linkage that goes to the side-to-side lever. I bet you'll find that it is not rotating all the way toward the first/second position. You may also find the problem- those bushings labeled as 7 in the parts diagram.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. If you actually knew how to work on cars, though, you'd find that people generally refer to solid parts that move as an assembly as 'linkage' and cables as...'cable.'

Given that two people had suggested checking the linkage and you came in claiming that the car didn't have a linkage, the vocabulary lesson seemed necessary.

I've never met a mechanic who didn't understand that a shift linkage could refer to either cables or rods or who used "shift linkage" exclusively for a rod-type setup. You're the one who came in here and tried to get pedantic, not me.

ZV

 

[phucheneh]

Given that two people had suggested checking the linkage and you came in claiming that the car didn't have a linkage, the vocabulary lesson seemed necessary.

I've never met a mechanic who didn't understand that a shift linkage could refer to either cables or rods or who used "shift linkage" exclusively for a rod-type setup. You're the one who came in here and tried to get pedantic, not me.

ZV

I think that car uses cables, not a linkage. There is probably an issue with the cable that goes side-to-side.

See that bold word? Let me help you understand it:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/think

See definitions 7 and 5. If I remember my grammar learnin' right, I THINK that quote used it as an intransitive, but I'M NOT SURE.

Perhaps you should learn to use some of these words and phrases. Others to try may include 'in my opinion,' or 'to the best of my knowledge.'

Why? Because you're not always right, and personally, I have a hell of a lot more respect for people who can admit that they're wrong, or that they don't know, or that they're offering an educated guess. When I do this, you take it as an invitation for what borders on a personal attack (seeing as you generally don't do it to others, especially in such a smart-ass way).

I've worked on Nissans with cable shifters, and was thinking most of their FWD's used them...but guess what? I was wrong in this case of this vehicle, the OP corrected me (with proof, even!), and I moved on with trying to help him, since guessing wrong on the shifter setup doesn't really impact diagnosis.

And again, in the actual automotive industry, 'cable' and 'linkage' are common terminology for 'wire that slides through a plastic sleeve' and 'pivoting rods,' respectively. Your irrelevant 'correction' there just helps solidify in my mind that you are nothing but an old shade-tree guy with an enormous ego. And you feeling the need to correct me after I had already been corrected (on the actual relevant issue, which had been addressed more thoroughly, and more civilly) says a lot about you and the little grudges you form due to your butthurt pride.

And I'm sorry I'm so 'pedantic.' For the second time tonight...a mod is trying to insult me with a word that he seems to not know the meaning of. You are clearly the pedantic one. You're also immature, insecure, and will relentlessly pursue your want of having everyone believe you are the most competent and knowledgeable mechanic on earth. You're not; neither am I. The difference is that I'm not under the delusional impression that I am. Grow up.

________________________________________________

Anyway, apologies to the OP for the attempted derail. Maybe he'll feel he finally has baited enough frustration out of me for a ban.

Sorry I didn't read the bottom of your post thoroughly enough. You started talking about shift forks and synchros, and I moved on prematurely because I wanted to suggest an easy way to rule out the non-cable linkage first.

I really do think you will find bad bushings on that rod. They can go suddenly- I've seen it happen. They keep drying out and rotting, gradually introducing more slop into the shifter...then one day, it finally gives up the ghost and breaks apart. I've seen them actually completely fall out. You may not have noticed a stark difference because of said slop already present, followed by part or all of the bushing finally ejecting itself from the vehicle.

If you don't feel up to pulling the rod off to check the action of the shift levers, at least crawl under the car, grab that bottom rod, and give it a good shake. You'll probably find a lot of play.





You cannot refer to a member's status as a mod when he is posting as a member.
That is a mod callout. And it needs to stop.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[sontakke]

Since I am 500 miles away from the vehicle, I can not personally do any of the tests that you guys are suggesting. However, I should be able to give my son enough information so that when he takes it to a shop, he will be in a position to understand. I have advised him to ask the shop to check and show him the rotating motion of the shift control rod. As you mentioned, it probably is not rotating as much in one direction as it should.

When the bushing goes, would it only affect the twisting motion in one direction and not in other? There are many bushings and collars shown in the picture. Would you be able to pinpoint which one would explain the symptoms most logically?

 

[sontakke]

My son took it to a corner gas station which unfortunately told him he needs rebuild because the transmission is burned up. "It was low on oil" but would not say how low.

How likely is it to have all other gears working fine except inability to move shifter in to gear 1 and 2 when the transmission is "burned up because of low oil"?

If it the transmission was running low on the oil, I would think it would become hard to shift in all gears and would progressively get worse and chew up synchros and getting balkier and balkier. It just suddenly block the shifter going in to first or second.

Time to get second opinion :-(

 

[JCH13]

My son took it to a corner gas station which unfortunately told him he needs rebuild because the transmission is burned up. "It was low on oil" but would not say how low.

How likely is it to have all other gears working fine except inability to move shifter in to gear 1 and 2 when the transmission is "burned up because of low oil"?

If it the transmission was running low on the oil, I would think it would become hard to shift in all gears and would progressively get worse and chew up synchros and getting balkier and balkier. It just suddenly block the shifter going in to first or second.

Time to get second opinion :-(

Definitely time for a second opinion, the symptoms you suggest would be more indicative of low oil and a failing transmission.

Your son might try moving the shifter actuators by hand on the transmission (bypassing the links and the shift lever).

 

[Murloc]

lol yeah we have to rebuild, because. Please give moneh nao.​

get a second opinion

 

[power_hour]

Just curious are you able to shift into any gear without using the clutch?

Get a second regardless. Insist on putting in on a hoist and taking a look for any unusual signs so you get a better idea.

 

[AMCRambler]

See that bold word? Let me help you understand it:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/think

See definitions 7 and 5. If I remember my grammar learnin' right, I THINK that quote used it as an intransitive, but I'M NOT SURE.

Perhaps you should learn to use some of these words and phrases. Others to try may include 'in my opinion,' or 'to the best of my knowledge.'

Why? Because you're not always right, and personally, I have a hell of a lot more respect for people who can admit that they're wrong, or that they don't know, or that they're offering an educated guess. When I do this, you take it as an invitation for what borders on a personal attack (seeing as you generally don't do it to others, especially in such a smart-ass way).

I've worked on Nissans with cable shifters, and was thinking most of their FWD's used them...but guess what? I was wrong in this case of this vehicle, the OP corrected me (with proof, even!), and I moved on with trying to help him, since guessing wrong on the shifter setup doesn't really impact diagnosis.

And again, in the actual automotive industry, 'cable' and 'linkage' are common terminology for 'wire that slides through a plastic sleeve' and 'pivoting rods,' respectively. Your irrelevant 'correction' there just helps solidify in my mind that you are nothing but an old shade-tree guy with an enormous ego. And you feeling the need to correct me after I had already been corrected (on the actual relevant issue, which had been addressed more thoroughly, and more civilly) says a lot about you and the little grudges you form due to your butthurt pride.

And I'm sorry I'm so 'pedantic.' For the second time tonight...a mod is trying to insult me with a word that he seems to not know the meaning of. You are clearly the pedantic one. You're also immature, insecure, and will relentlessly pursue your want of having everyone believe you are the most competent and knowledgeable mechanic on earth. You're not; neither am I. The difference is that I'm not under the delusional impression that I am. Grow up.

________________________________________________

Anyway, apologies to the OP for the attempted derail. Maybe he'll feel he finally has baited enough frustration out of me for a ban.

Sorry I didn't read the bottom of your post thoroughly enough. You started talking about shift forks and synchros, and I moved on prematurely because I wanted to suggest an easy way to rule out the non-cable linkage first.

I really do think you will find bad bushings on that rod. They can go suddenly- I've seen it happen. They keep drying out and rotting, gradually introducing more slop into the shifter...then one day, it finally gives up the ghost and breaks apart. I've seen them actually completely fall out. You may not have noticed a stark difference because of said slop already present, followed by part or all of the bushing finally ejecting itself from the vehicle.

If you don't feel up to pulling the rod off to check the action of the shift levers, at least crawl under the car, grab that bottom rod, and give it a good shake. You'll probably find a lot of play.

hehehehehe

 

[phucheneh]

My son took it to a corner gas station which unfortunately told him he needs rebuild because the transmission is burned up. "It was low on oil" but would not say how low.

How likely is it to have all other gears working fine except inability to move shifter in to gear 1 and 2 when the transmission is "burned up because of low oil"?

If it the transmission was running low on the oil, I would think it would become hard to shift in all gears and would progressively get worse and chew up synchros and getting balkier and balkier. It just suddenly block the shifter going in to first or second.

Time to get second opinion :-(

Yeah, that guy doesn't appear to have any idea what he's talking about. 'Burned up' would imply the only friction devices in the trans (the blocking rings in the synchros) are bad. You would still be able to shift into first and second gear while sitting still. You'd get grinding while moving. For his explanation to be valid, the whole 1-2 synchro assembly would have to be melted, broken, or otherwise damaged in a way that jams it in place. And I just don't believe that.

Did HE remove the linkage and check the trans operation by hand? If not, I would recommend paying him no money and probably punching him in the face.

 

[sontakke]

He claims he removed some part of exhaust to observe the linkage and he claims it was fine. He also claimed that he had already put everything back together.

 

[NAC]

The output shaft of the transmission may be sheered in two after the first & second gears. This happened to my ’86 Mustang and I had to rebuild the transmission.

Similar to the diagram in the first picture of this page, but in this case the gears are in a different order:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/dual-clutch-transmission1.htm

 

[NAC]

Oh, that diagram is for dual clutch, hence two different input shafts. Yours would be a single input shaft, but simliar otherwise.

 

[phucheneh]

He claims he removed some part of exhaust to observe the linkage and he claims it was fine. He also claimed that he had already put everything back together.

Did he check the linkage? Because if he's going to condemn the transmission, the transmission is exactly what he should be checking. The linkage is going to have some slop to begin with, and it is much easier to reach a concrete conclusion by checking the function of the trans with the linkage out of the equation.

To me, it sounds like 'let us sell you a transmission + labor, and if it still doesn't work, we'll totally take care of that $5 bushing for you! No charge!'

It's just so common to see someone too lazy to diagnose something (and/or too greedy to sell a simple fix) simply say, you need [insert expensive part], knowing that they'll make more money from it, and if they're wrong, the cheap fix is easy to put in after the fact, making the customer think they were right all along.

 

[sontakke]

The output shaft of the transmission may be sheered in two after the first & second gears. This happened to my ’86 Mustang and I had to rebuild the transmission.

Similar to the diagram in the first picture of this page, but in this case the gears are in a different order:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/dual-clutch-transmission1.htm

How would a sheered transmission shaft would prevent gear shift lever from going in to 1st or 2nd gear?

How would a broken part inside transmission would let the car go in other gears as if there is nothing wrong? It would make quite a racket and most likely will affect all other gears.

 

[sontakke]

well, the 2nd opinion same as the first one :-( I still can't get anything more over the phone than "technician checked the linkage and it is fine. so it must be something inside the transmission".

 

[JCH13]

The linkages are used to shift into every gear. If there was an issue with shifting into every gear the linkage is a likely culprit. You've got an issue shifting into two gears, thus it is likely an issue with something that those two gears share, like a shifter fork or their shaft, not something like the linkage.

If the shaft is no longer spinning (or seized) for whatever reason, its gear sets will never properly engage. This could be similar to trying to put a parked car into gear without depressing the clutch, if the gear teeth just happen to line up it'll engage perfectly, but if the teeth not lined up you're hosed. If the shifter fork is broken or jammed, for whatever reason, only those two gears will be affected and nothing else.

I don't think the garages are necessarily trying to hose you with an excessively costly repair, their conclusion that the transmission needs internal work does follow what symptoms we know. Personally, I would still want to clap eyes on what they've looked at.