Man Versus Machine

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Automation has created phenomenal job growth and prosperity for the vast majority of americans over the last couple decades. Becoming more efficient and productive has allowed the american people to develop new skills, trades and lives over time. This new world of technology, while requiring less low skilled people has made our lives much easier and has generated growth in hardware, IT, and other high paying fields.

The more technology motivated economy is demanding skilled people, and it seems all others are getting left behind. The author makes a good point in saying more jobs are lost to automation than offshoring and the only way to succeed in this economy is education.

This is why I am glad to see Bush increase education funding 40% through his term, hopefully this policy of his (unlike many others) will have a positive long term effect on the US economy. Good article though, read it.

Source
I'm not often moved by numbers, in part because of several tragic math experiences in high school, but also because statistics and equations can often obscure the more interesting big ideas. But I recently stumbled across a number that is the big idea when it comes to the 21st Century American economy.

Answer this: Between 1979 and 2002 (the latest year for which we have data), what happened to the median weekly earnings of American men without a high school degree? These are full-time workers, and the comparisons have been adjusted for inflation.

I'll give you some context. For college-educated men, the median weekly wage rose 20 percent in real purchasing power from 1979 to 2002. Women with college degrees did even better -- up 34 percent.

Now, back to the guys who dropped out of high school. What's happened to their typical paycheck over the past two and a half decades?

1. Up 10 percent -- only half what the college grads enjoyed, but, as my dad would say, still better than a sharp stick in the eye.
2. Up one percent -- or basically flat, meaning that the typical male low-skilled worker has not seen any improvement in his standard of living in two and half decades.
3. Down nine percent -- a standard of living almost 10 percent worse than a generation ago.
4. Down 27 percent -- meaning that over a 23-year period of relatively robust economic growth, low-skilled workers have seen more than a quarter of their purchasing power disappear and are now significantly worse off than they were in 1979.

The answer is d. Women who dropped out of high school did better, seeing their real wages fall only seven percent over the same period.

You Can Learn a Lot at the Movies

To understand the essence of what's going on, let me tell you about my night at the movies. I saw "Grizzly Man", a documentary by Werner Herzog about a guy who spends 13 summers in Alaska living among grizzly bears only to be eaten in the end by one of the animals he loved. That's not the relevant part of the evening, but it is an extraordinary film.

Here's the insight: As I parked my car in the garage, a mellifluous voice was saying repeatedly something along the lines of: "Please take your ticket with you. There is no attendant on duty. Pay for your parking at any of the kiosks inside."

I then bought my movie ticket at a different electronic kiosk (similar to the self check-in machines that most airlines are now using). Not only did the machine allow me to avoid waiting in line, but it also told me what percentage of the seats had been sold for every film at every time.

Both the automated parking and the automated ticket machine were new since the last time I'd been to that theater, no more than a few months ago. And that is why America's low-skilled workers are taking it on the chin. Forget the guy on the phone in Bangalore telling you how to use your new computer. He's a red herring. The job loss statistics tell the same story as they always have: Technology replaces far, far more low-skill jobs than foreign workers do. Think voice mail, ATM machines, automated customer service lines, self-serve gas, online bill paying, automated package tracking, and on and on.

Not one of those innovations is bad for the U.S. economy. Every one of them creates jobs -- albeit for people with skills in business strategy, engineering, software, marketing, and sales. And every one displaces people, like the guy who takes your $10 and gives you a movie ticket and $.50.

Want to Protect Your Job? Develop Your Skills

The 21st Century economy is not about jobs; it's about skills. After all, highly-educated people lose their jobs, too. What do you think happens when JP Morgan Chase merges with Bank One? Bruce Springsteen doesn't sing about those people because they are adaptable enough to turn around and do something else. At the time this column was written, the unemployment rate for college-educated workers was 2.1 percent, compared to 4.9 percent for the nation as a whole and 7.6 percent for workers with less than a high school diploma.

So what do we do for the people Bruce Springsteen does sing about? I'll be the first to tell you that the research on everything from job training to systemic school reform is relatively discouraging. Then again, so were the early attempts to put a man on the moon. The most important first step is to create the political will for massively upgrading the skills of those at the shallow end of the labor pool. Thinkers across the political spectrum have some clever and original ideas, but they need help getting past the baggage of their respective parties.

The Republicans need to ditch the absurd notion that tax cuts alone will help those at the bottom. The numbers are pretty darn clear: After 25 years of significant tax cuts and a steadily growing economy, there's not a lot trickling down to low-skilled workers that wasn't excreted by birds. Hence the Ukrainian proverb: A rising tide is good for those in big boats and bad for those standing on the bottom in heavy shoes. (Okay, that's not really a Ukrainian proverb, but doesn't it sound like it should be?)

The Democrats need to stop confusing things that lessen the pain in the short run with real solutions for the long run. Raising the minimum wage, for example, doesn't make anyone more skilled. It just charges more for the same increasingly outdated skills, which can be counterproductive. How? Just imagine that you own a movie theater and the minimum wage goes to $9 an hour. Would you be more or less likely to invest in automated ticket kiosks?

And, of course, there is some profoundly irrational individual behavior going on. Dropping out of high school is financial suicide. We can argue over whether it is a personal failure, a social problem, or some combination of the two, but let's agree on the key point: It's bad. Even finishing high school and skipping college is looking increasingly foolish. The median weekly wage for men with high school diplomas but no college fell 13 percent between 1979 and 2003.

The overriding lesson is simple: If your job can be done by a machine, then it soon will be. So try to be the guy who sells the machine.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,615
6,717
126
All aspects of civilization will soon become far too complex to be handled by humans.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Stunt
Automation has created phenomenal job growth and prosperity for the vast majority of americans over the last couple decades.

Wrong, prosperity for a small percentage of the richest that control the slave lines of production in other Countries.

Becoming more efficient and productive has allowed the american people to develop new skills, trades and lives over time.

For what??? All the manufacturing is overseas. :confused:

This new world of technology, while requiring less low skilled people has made our lives much easier and has generated growth in hardware, IT, and other high paying fields.

What high paying fields? Only thing left is service and retail jobs.

The more technology motivated economy is demanding skilled people, and it seems all others are getting left behind.

All others is the majority of the population.

The author makes a good point in saying more jobs are lost to automation than offshoring and the only way to succeed in this economy is education.

This is why I am glad to see Bush increase education funding 40% through his term, hopefully this policy of his (unlike many others) will have a positive long term effect on the US economy.

Wow, what a Republican Bush puppet and amazingly not even of the U.S.

Talk about a sellout. What's in it for you personally???

You have to be getting some sort of kick-back from this Republican Regime.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
I read somewhere, that for all our innovation, and technology, we still work harder than our grandparents. I also heard the same thing on the History Channel the other day. I'll go look for some material.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Automation has created phenomenal job growth and prosperity for the vast majority of americans over the last couple decades.

Wrong, prosperity for a small percentage of the richest that control the slave lines of production in other Countries.

Becoming more efficient and productive has allowed the american people to develop new skills, trades and lives over time.

For what??? All the manufacturing is overseas. :confused:

This new world of technology, while requiring less low skilled people has made our lives much easier and has generated growth in hardware, IT, and other high paying fields.

What high paying fields? Only thing left is service and retail jobs.

The more technology motivated economy is demanding skilled people, and it seems all others are getting left behind.

All others is the majority of the population.

The author makes a good point in saying more jobs are lost to automation than offshoring and the only way to succeed in this economy is education.

This is why I am glad to see Bush increase education funding 40% through his term, hopefully this policy of his (unlike many others) will have a positive long term effect on the US economy.

Wow, what a Republican Bush puppet and amazingly not even of the U.S.

Talk about a sellout. What's in it for you personally???

You have to be getting some sort of kick-back from this Republican Regime.

Should you not go back to hand making dsl modems or something?


Us manufacturing output has not dropped, it has only gone up. THe only problem is that we produce far more with less people now. The same thing happened to farmers 100 years ago.

Things are changing and for the better.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Automation has created phenomenal job growth and prosperity for the vast majority of americans over the last couple decades.

Wrong, prosperity for a small percentage of the richest that control the slave lines of production in other Countries.

Becoming more efficient and productive has allowed the american people to develop new skills, trades and lives over time.

For what??? All the manufacturing is overseas. :confused:

This new world of technology, while requiring less low skilled people has made our lives much easier and has generated growth in hardware, IT, and other high paying fields.

What high paying fields? Only thing left is service and retail jobs.

The more technology motivated economy is demanding skilled people, and it seems all others are getting left behind.

All others is the majority of the population.

The author makes a good point in saying more jobs are lost to automation than offshoring and the only way to succeed in this economy is education.

This is why I am glad to see Bush increase education funding 40% through his term, hopefully this policy of his (unlike many others) will have a positive long term effect on the US economy.

Wow, what a Republican Bush puppet and amazingly not even of the U.S.

Talk about a sellout. What's in it for you personally???

You have to be getting some sort of kick-back from this Republican Regime.

Should you not go back to hand making dsl modems or something?

Us manufacturing output has not dropped, it has only gone up. THe only problem is that we produce far more with less people now. The same thing happened to farmers 100 years ago.

Things are changing and for the better.

As a matter of fact, yes. Machines suck at quality, period.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Automation has created phenomenal job growth and prosperity for the vast majority of americans over the last couple decades.

Wrong, prosperity for a small percentage of the richest that control the slave lines of production in other Countries.

Becoming more efficient and productive has allowed the american people to develop new skills, trades and lives over time.

For what??? All the manufacturing is overseas. :confused:

This new world of technology, while requiring less low skilled people has made our lives much easier and has generated growth in hardware, IT, and other high paying fields.

What high paying fields? Only thing left is service and retail jobs.

The more technology motivated economy is demanding skilled people, and it seems all others are getting left behind.

All others is the majority of the population.

The author makes a good point in saying more jobs are lost to automation than offshoring and the only way to succeed in this economy is education.

This is why I am glad to see Bush increase education funding 40% through his term, hopefully this policy of his (unlike many others) will have a positive long term effect on the US economy.

Wow, what a Republican Bush puppet and amazingly not even of the U.S.

Talk about a sellout. What's in it for you personally???

You have to be getting some sort of kick-back from this Republican Regime.

Should you not go back to hand making dsl modems or something?

Us manufacturing output has not dropped, it has only gone up. THe only problem is that we produce far more with less people now. The same thing happened to farmers 100 years ago.

Things are changing and for the better.

As a matter of fact, yes. Machines suck at quality, period.


Well the only problem is if dsl modems were hand made their quality would be much worse. Things that are built with automated process tend to have much better quality than the same hand made products. But I have not doubt you will attempt to argue this and makre yourself look the fool.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: judasmachine
I read somewhere, that for all our innovation, and technology, we still work harder than our grandparents. I also heard the same thing on the History Channel the other day. I'll go look for some material.

We are also way more productive than our grandparents as well.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: judasmachine
I read somewhere, that for all our innovation, and technology, we still work harder than our grandparents. I also heard the same thing on the History Channel the other day. I'll go look for some material.

We are also way more productive than our grandparents as well.


Yeah, I was just pointing out that we still haven't bought ourselves any real leisure time, for all of our efforts. Oh well back my flying car shopping...
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
As a matter of fact, yes. Machines suck at quality, period.
Actually machines are the only way to even come close to quality.

I can't believe you think I'm a sellout to the Republican/Bush Camp, the trend outlined in the article is not something made by republicans but throughout clinton's 8 years as well (8 of the 22 in fact). If you think it is the job of all americans to prop up those who do not educate themselves for the jobs that they demand of themeselves (people are demanding cheaper, and more efficicient goods and services), they are destined to fail.

This is not a Red vs. Blue issue like you want to turn everything into Dave...it's a human issue, where we all strive to improve, adapt and make things better. If we didn't do this, we wouldnt have computers, we wouldn't have any technology. I find it highly hypocritical that you don't support automation, yet you are one of those people implementing it. You think your computer systems demand low-skilled people? or people who require computer skills and people to maintain the hardware? Think about it.

Luckily the majority of the population is not dumb and uneducated as you'd like to think or believe, in fact, most americans are taking advantage of these new fields; either through their development, manufacture or maintenance. You are so blinded by the Republican Red these days you fail to really understand what is going on. Taking the US back 10 years you think all the worlds problems would be solved...it's quite sad actually.

Do me a favour and don't reply to my posts unless you have a REAL argument, and you leave out the insults which are absolutely wrong.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Here's an idea: stop assuming we've got more resources, or should need them. So, people are more productive, byt also work harder--why? Why not become more productive so that they can work less, while still getting more done? That's the dream, is it not? That maybe people will finally have the time to really work on themselves, rather than to spend their time to hold their economic position (and then, as they get good, their kids are made todo more to keep up).

As long as the measure of our collective well-being is economic growth, it will only get worse. Everyone is not made for high-pressure, high-skilled work. Some of us who are made for it (I am going to college for programming, after all) still don't like the idea.

I'm with Dave on this one. We've not only taken a wrong turn, but embraced it. This is just one more way that our freedoms are quietly being ground down.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Cerb
Here's an idea: stop assuming we've got more resources, or should need them. So, people are more productive, but also work harder--why?

Why not become more productive so that they can work less, while still getting more done?

That's the dream, is it not?

That maybe people will finally have the time to really work on themselves, rather than to spend their time to hold their economic position (and then, as they get good, their kids are made todo more to keep up).

As long as the measure of our collective well-being is economic growth, it will only get worse. Everyone is not made for high-pressure, high-skilled work. Some of us who are made for it (I am going to college for programming, after all) still don't like the idea.

I'm with Dave on this one. We've not only taken a wrong turn, but embraced it.

This is just one more way that our freedoms are quietly being ground down.

Thank you :thumbsup:

I'm just so saddened by how there are so few true Americans left out there that still hold on to what America is truly all about and the real American Dream.

I don't know what these people have embraced.

Republicans, what do you call this new America of yours???
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Automation has created phenomenal job growth and prosperity for the vast majority of americans over the last couple decades.

Wrong, prosperity for a small percentage of the richest that control the slave lines of production in other Countries.

Becoming more efficient and productive has allowed the american people to develop new skills, trades and lives over time.

For what??? All the manufacturing is overseas. :confused:

This new world of technology, while requiring less low skilled people has made our lives much easier and has generated growth in hardware, IT, and other high paying fields.

What high paying fields? Only thing left is service and retail jobs.

The more technology motivated economy is demanding skilled people, and it seems all others are getting left behind.

All others is the majority of the population.

The author makes a good point in saying more jobs are lost to automation than offshoring and the only way to succeed in this economy is education.

This is why I am glad to see Bush increase education funding 40% through his term, hopefully this policy of his (unlike many others) will have a positive long term effect on the US economy.

Wow, what a Republican Bush puppet and amazingly not even of the U.S.

Talk about a sellout. What's in it for you personally???

You have to be getting some sort of kick-back from this Republican Regime.

Should you not go back to hand making dsl modems or something?

Us manufacturing output has not dropped, it has only gone up. THe only problem is that we produce far more with less people now. The same thing happened to farmers 100 years ago.

Things are changing and for the better.

As a matter of fact, yes. Machines suck at quality, period.

You think a tedious human hand could make a better DSL modem?
You think it could do it at a cheaper rate?

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I'm just so saddened by how there are so few true Americans left out there that still hold on to what America is truly all about and the real American Dream.

What is the American dream in your world? Working on a car manufacturing line for 18 hours day making 10 bucks an hour and remain uneducated?

I think your idea of an American dream sucks.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Dave, I am interested to hear what you think the american dream is...
 

AntaresVI

Platinum Member
May 10, 2001
2,152
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Dave, I am interested to hear what you think the american dream is...

Well, according to dave, the Republican american dream is "blah blah blah DOMINATE AND SUBJUGATE THE LOWER AND MIDDLE CLASSES blah blah blah"

The "real" american dream is "blah blah blah everyone has everything for free, execute republicans, elect dave emperor of world blah blah blah."
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Dave, I am interested to hear what you think the american dream is...

American Dream

"through hard work, courage and determination one can achieve prosperity."
Dropping out of highschool doesn't count as hard work, and the article outlines why these people fail at life.

"unprecedented freedom, especially the possibility of dramatic upward social mobility."
Economic freedom, sounds like support for capitalism, allowing for automation and technologies.

Honestly Dave, the american dream is everything a free market stands for...the idea of automating and reducing unskilled jobs is a natural progression of life. It is up to us to educate our people to make way for this new, and better lifestyle. I refuse to go back to the stone age because the dumbest slackers in the country can't seem to work. I hope you understand how much of a hypocrite you are being as a advocate of technologies...it is your products and services that in the end eliminate the unskilled jobs and create the skilled. I find it just nutty you do not support this new way of life.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: AntaresVI
Originally posted by: Stunt
Dave, I am interested to hear what you think the american dream is...

Well, according to dave, the Republican american dream is "blah blah blah DOMINATE AND SUBJUGATE THE LOWER AND MIDDLE CLASSES blah blah blah"

The "real" american dream is "blah blah blah everyone has everything for free, execute republicans, elect dave emperor of world blah blah blah."
Did i ask YOU the question?

...NOPE...didn't thinkso...:)
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Dave, I am interested to hear what you think the american dream is...

American Dream

"through hard work, courage and determination one can achieve prosperity."
Dropping out of highschool doesn't count as hard work, and the article outlines why these people fail at life.

"unprecedented freedom, especially the possibility of dramatic upward social mobility."
Economic freedom, sounds like support for capitalism, allowing for automation and technologies.

Honestly Dave, the american dream is everything a free market stands for...the idea of automating and reducing unskilled jobs is a natural progression of life. It is up to us to educate our people to make way for this new, and better lifestyle. I refuse to go back to the stone age because the dumbest slackers in the country can't seem to work. I hope you understand how much of a hypocrite you are being as a advocate of technologies...it is your products and services that in the end eliminate the unskilled jobs and create the skilled. I find it just nutty you do not support this new way of life.

Where do you get I am anti-technology??? :confused:

I'm anti-discrimination, big difference.

The current Model of the Republican version of the American Dream is biased for Rich only.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
You said machines suck and you are upset with the job losses of unskilled workers...not realizing the job losses of unskilled workers is creating jobs for skilled workers.

Either you support technologies being used and unskilled layoffs, or support inefficient unskilled workforce and lack of technology.

Pick one.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Cerb
Here's an idea: stop assuming we've got more resources, or should need them. So, people are more productive, byt also work harder--why? Why not become more productive so that they can work less, while still getting more done? That's the dream, is it not? That maybe people will finally have the time to really work on themselves, rather than to spend their time to hold their economic position (and then, as they get good, their kids are made todo more to keep up).

As long as the measure of our collective well-being is economic growth, it will only get worse. Everyone is not made for high-pressure, high-skilled work. Some of us who are made for it (I am going to college for programming, after all) still don't like the idea.

I'm with Dave on this one. We've not only taken a wrong turn, but embraced it. This is just one more way that our freedoms are quietly being ground down.



If you are getting some degree in programming you had better get used to automating peoples jobs away. This is something that very much comes with the territory. Software allows companies to more with less people.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Cerb
Here's an idea: stop assuming we've got more resources, or should need them. So, people are more productive, byt also work harder--why? Why not become more productive so that they can work less, while still getting more done? That's the dream, is it not? That maybe people will finally have the time to really work on themselves, rather than to spend their time to hold their economic position (and then, as they get good, their kids are made todo more to keep up).

As long as the measure of our collective well-being is economic growth, it will only get worse. Everyone is not made for high-pressure, high-skilled work. Some of us who are made for it (I am going to college for programming, after all) still don't like the idea.

I'm with Dave on this one. We've not only taken a wrong turn, but embraced it. This is just one more way that our freedoms are quietly being ground down.
If you are getting some degree in programming you had better get used to automating peoples jobs away. This is something that very much comes with the territory. Software allows companies to more with less people.
That isn't a problem. The need for continued economic growth is more of a problem, and causes not only to reduce middlemen and those in low-skill service jobs (I do think that is somewhat of a problem, but it is more of a symptom than a problem of its own), but also for those skilled to work longer to create more and more, rather than sustain what is there and gain leisure time; so that one can be part of the system that sustains society, yet not a slave to it.

Technology is not good or bad on its own. In this case, it is a thing that we're focusing on to look at surrounding social issues.