Man Cited For Trying to Pay $25 Doctor’s Bill in Pennies

[Analog]

VERNAL, Utah - A Utah man has been charged with disorderly conduct for allegedly trying to pay a disputed doctor's bill in pennies, the Deseret News reported Friday.
Police said 38-year-old Jason West went to a clinic in Vernal, Utah, on May 27 to dispute an outstanding bill for $25.
"After asking if they accepted cash, West dumped 2,500 pennies onto the counter and demanded that they count it," Vernal Assistant Police Chief Keith Campbell said. "The pennies were strewn about the counter and the floor."
West left the office as employees told him they were calling the police.
Officers eventually found West and cited him for disorderly conduct, an infraction with a potential fine of $140.

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/uta...o-pay-25-doctors-bill-in-pennies-20110604-ncx

 

[her209]

WTF? Pennies are legal tender. Maybe if he hadn't "dumped it" onto the counter he would have gotten away with it.

 

[guyver01]

Perfectly legal for them to REFUSE to count it... and even more legal for them to REFUSE to accept it.

Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.

There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.

This is why you often see signs in businesses which state "No Bills Larger than $20"

 

[waggy]

wtf i hope he fights it

he should win. this is idiotic

 

[SandEagle]

paid with pennies? makes perfect cents

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Perfectly legal for them to REFUSE to count it... and even more legal for them to REFUSE to accept it.

Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.

There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.

This is why you often see signs in businesses which state "No Bills Larger than $20"

What is the legal definition of creditor and why doesn't a private business to which you own money count as a creditor? If you filed bankruptcy and you happened to owe money to a doctor's office, would you not list the doctor bill on the list of creditors?

Although I note that the statute you quoted doesn't say "to creditors", it just says "debts" et al. Isn't money owed to a private business a "debt"?

 

[WaTaGuMp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMimygVTgbU

 

[guyver01]

What is the legal definition of creditor and why doesn't a private business to which you own money count as a creditor? If you filed bankruptcy and you happened to owe money to a doctor's office, would you not list the doctor bill on the list of creditors?

Although I note that the statute you quoted doesn't say "to creditors", it just says "debts" et al. Isn't money owed to a private business a "debt"?

just because something is a legal form of payment, doesn't mean someone has to take it.

If i'm a business, i can make it my policy to accept payment in only Dollar Bills.

This is my legal right as a business. I don't have to accept your $20

 

[waggy]

Perfectly legal for them to REFUSE to count it... and even more legal for them to REFUSE to accept it.

Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.

There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.

This is why you often see signs in businesses which state "No Bills Larger than $20"

all true. but that does not make him paying in pennies a crime.

 

[guyver01]

all true. but that does not make him paying in pennies a crime.

He was cited for disorderly conduct.

Throwing money about a business would probably qualify.

Throwing a temper tantrum when they refused to accept your payment, would no doubt count as well.

 

[NetWareHead]

all true. but that does not make him paying in pennies a crime.

Guy is a douchebag and purposefully created an inconvenience for the business by paying with pennies. Even more so by "strewning them all over the counter and floor". If he had at least presented the money in a organized and civilized manner, he may have gotten away with it. Someone enters my business and starts throwing items around will get the cops called too.

 

[slag]

just because something is a legal form of payment, doesn't mean someone has to take it.

If i'm a business, i can make it my policy to accept payment in only Dollar Bills.

This is my legal right as a business. I don't have to accept your $20

If I enter an agreement to purchase something, the item is handed to me, and then the seller refuses to take my money, money which the government has deemed to be legal tender for all transactions in the state/country I'm in, then that seller has just given me the item for free. Thanks for the free gift. Its not theft, I paid, but he refused the payment.

 

[guyver01]

If I enter an agreement to purchase something, the item is handed to me, and then the seller refuses to take my money, money which the government has deemed to be legal tender for all transactions in the state/country I'm in, then that seller has just given me the item for free. Thanks for the free gift. Its not theft, I paid, but he refused the payment.

go ahead and try that... see how well it works out for ya. Don't forget to post from jail when you're arrested for theft.

By your logic, you go and buy a pack of gum for 50 cents, and try to pay with a $100 bill... if the cashier refuses the $100 bill because of company policy, the gum is free? Doesn't work that way.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

just because something is a legal form of payment, doesn't mean someone has to take it.

If i'm a business, i can make it my policy to accept payment in only Dollar Bills.

This is my legal right as a business. I don't have to accept your $20

Yes, but the statute that you quoted says legal tender is good for "debts" with no provision for what you are saying.

Is there therefore another statute that provides for businesses to be selective in what they will accept? Or is there no applicable statute, but court precedent has something to do with it?

 

[guyver01]

Is there therefore another statute that provides for businesses to be selective in what they will accept? Or is there no applicable statute, but court precedent has something to do with it?

There is no Federal statute that FORCES private businesses, persons, or organizations to accept any tender as payment for goods and/or services.

Retail store owners can determine which form of payment they will accept and which ones they will not accept. They own the business and can conduct it as they wish, to an extent. Some choose not to accept checks, others do not accept credit cards, while some may choose to not accept rolled coins.

It's mostly a problem only when someone uses large numbers of coins as a form of protest, such as using buckets of pennies to pay a disputed bill.

In these cases lower courts have tended to rule against the payer, but there's no hard rule in place.

 

[Locut0s]

I agree with Guyver? Something must be horribly wrong. D:

 

[guyver01]

I agree with Guyver? Something must be horribly wrong. D:

Or Guyver must be horribly right.

i know it's rare, but it happens from time to time.

 

[slag]

go ahead and try that... see how well it works out for ya. Don't forget to post from jail when you're arrested for theft.

By your logic, you go and buy a pack of gum for 50 cents, and try to pay with a $100 bill... if the cashier refuses the $100 bill because of company policy, the gum is free? Doesn't work that way.

I agree with you. It doesn't work that way, but it should. Their refusal to accept money that is legal tender for all debts, public and private, is their issue, not yours. As long as its not posted ahead of time, then it really shouldn't be your problem.

 

[her209]

Let's take an example to the extreme. Say you owe a business money for some service provided. They didn't tell you up front, i.e., there was no sign posted, that they don't accept cash/coins, credit card, checks, etc. The only form of payment they accept is gold bullion which they happen to sell for the going market rate + 10% convenience fee.

Who wins if this goes to court?

EDIT: I need to add that the business charges late fees and interest for the outstanding bill as well.

 

[NetWareHead]

Let's take an example to the extreme. Say you owe a business money for some service provided. They didn't tell you up front, i.e., there was no sign posted, that they don't accept cash/coins, credit card, checks, etc. The only form of payment they accept is gold bullion which they happen to sell for the going market rate + 10% convenience fee.

Who wins if this goes to court?

Trolling detected

 

[her209]

Trolling detected

Not trolling. Either a business has the ability to determine the currency it gets paid in or it doesn't.

 

[guyver01]

Let's take an example to the extreme. Say you owe a business money for some service provided. They didn't tell you up front, i.e., there was no sign posted, that they don't accept cash/coins, credit card, checks, etc. The only form of payment they accept is gold bullion which they happen to sell for the going market rate + 10% convenience fee.

Who wins if this goes to court?

EDIT: I need to add that the business charges late fees and interest for the outstanding bill as well.

United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks)

This is the key.

Gold Bullion is not "legal tender"

Just like you can't take Bearer Bonds to the supermarket and pay your bill with it. It is not legal tender.

 

[guyver01]

Not trolling. Either a business has the ability to determine the currency it gets paid in or it doesn't.

A business has the ability to determine what amount of LEGAL TENDER it gets paid in.

A business cannot say "we only accept payment in Gummy Bears."

 

[nick1985]

It wasn't about the pennies people. What he did was no different than dumping gravel all over the counter. He was just being an asshole

 

[nick1985]

A business cannot say "we only accept payment in Gummy Bears."

I certainly would accept Gummy Bears if I ran a business. :thumbsup: