Man being investigated for practicing engineering without a license

[dmcowen674]

This is serious business and everyone laughs

 

[ShawnD1]

EDIT: I read the rest of the article, I could definitely see a case against them on this if there was no disclaimer clearly stating that the work was not done by an engineer. They were making technical recommends in a report that appeared to be engineering quality, this could misled people into making incorrect decisions.

I work at an engineering place and nothing is considered official unless it has an engineer's stamp on it, and his or her signature, and it has a license to practice number on it. I graduated less than a year ago so I still don't have any kind of engineering authority over anything. In the eyes of the law, I'm as qualified as a janitor. I still put my name on stuff as the author or the editor or the checker.

Often the only engineer to stamp and sign things is the department manager. Even though the people working under the manager could have their engineering stamps and everything, signing stuff and making it legal without passing it by the manager is a great way to get fired and possibly sued. Anyone who is convinced that the author of the report is an engineer but it doesn't have initials after his name and it has no stamp on it and there's no license number on it is a fucking idiot. I hope they never go into a court room. Everyone wearing a suit is automatically assumed to be lawyer unless they wear a name tag that says "I am not a lawyer"

 

[Thump553]

Professional engineering is regulated by every state. In Oklahoma it is illegal to represent yourself as an engineer (for hire) or perform engineering work without a license (what is considered engineering work is fairly narrowly defined). I don't think just making a report and presenting it would cause any problems, unless the report tried to make claims that it's authors were PEs. If he had made a report or plans and offered it for sale that would be something different.

I guess I could see a little bit of gray area if he was trying to influence large groups of people with the report also.

EDIT: I read the rest of the article, I could definitely see a case against them on this if there was no disclaimer clearly stating that the work was not done by an engineer. They were making technical recommends in a report that appeared to be engineering quality, this could misled people into making incorrect decisions.

Nonsense-the guy never did or said anything to misrepresent the report as being done by an engineer or to any particular engineering standards. The gist of the complaint is that the report is so well done that maybe someone would think an engineer did it therefore this guy is misrepresenting himself as an engineer.

That's like saying anyone who prints neatly is misrepresenting themselves as a draftsman.

The public official who filed this complaint should have the expense to the public (not to mention outright harassment of citizens) considered very negatively in his next performance review-or better yet, in the layoffs in his department. Its purely a case of a petty tyrant bureaucrat trying to protect his turf from citizen input.

 

[Pulsar]

I work at an engineering place and nothing is considered official unless it has an engineer's stamp on it, and his or her signature, and it has a license to practice number on it. I graduated less than a year ago so I still don't have any kind of engineering authority over anything. In the eyes of the law, I'm as qualified as a janitor. I still put my name on stuff as the author or the editor or the checker.

Often the only engineer to stamp and sign things is the department manager. Even though the people working under the manager could have their engineering stamps and everything, signing stuff and making it legal without passing it by the manager is a great way to get fired and possibly sued. Anyone who is convinced that the author of the report is an engineer but it doesn't have initials after his name and it has no stamp on it and there's no license number on it is a fucking idiot. I hope they never go into a court room. Everyone wearing a suit is automatically assumed to be lawyer unless they wear a name tag that says "I am not a lawyer"

I have an engineering degree. I have full engineering authority to draw, engineer, make decisions, spend money, and manage people. However, because I do not have a PE degree, I cannot be a LEGALLY responsible individual. That is the point of getting a PE.

For instance, if I were to design a lifting device, I can pay a couple hundred bucks and send it to a company to have it force tested, then a PE signs off on the drawings and it's all good. I cannot design it and put it straight into service.

People with out PE's are still engineers. A PE is just a legally responsible engineer.

I knew that coming out of school. After 4 years of college I had more than enough schooling by my way of thinking. No interest what-so-ever in getting a PE, and my company (Ford) could care less if I have it.

To me, it sounds like our friendly politician is getting the engineering occupation confused with one that is unionized, where people get all upset and pissy if they think you're trying to do their job. Shoot, he better get after all those kids in school who submit science projects: they're clearly not scientists.

Idiot needs to be fired or recalled for that kind of stupidity.

 

[manimal]

Next thing you know you cant do your own taxes since its clearly professional work...

 

[ShawnD1]

Next thing you know you cant do your own taxes since its clearly professional work...

LOL. Maybe you'll get charged with practicing medicine without a license when you say "man that looks bad you, should see a specialist or something"

Pulsar, it might not be a good idea to say what company you work for. Just as a precautionary measure

 

[alkemyst]

How fucking hard is it to drive a train? It just goes where the tracks go.

 

[hal2kilo]

I'm surprised that the libertopians aren't jumping all over this. This is a classic example of the roadblocks put in the way of people that although quite intelligent just don't have the "magic paper" that proves they are as smart as they might be. Albert Einstein had to put up with this bullshit, but fortunately prevailed.

To me the most hideous people in corporate america are the HR professionals who, guess what, they all have "magic paper" that says in writing how smart they are. And because they had to work so hard for that "magic paperwork" anybody who applies for a position won't even get an interview, or chance to prove themselves if they aren't a member of the "magic paper" club. Every now and then, and always in a private business venture, some people prevail, usually if they're lucky enough to have been born to a wealthy family, or have wealthy friends to continue for things work out, but for the majority of us unwashed it's "get to the back of the line".

 

[Zorba]

I work at an engineering place and nothing is considered official unless it has an engineer's stamp on it, and his or her signature, and it has a license to practice number on it. I graduated less than a year ago so I still don't have any kind of engineering authority over anything. In the eyes of the law, I'm as qualified as a janitor. I still put my name on stuff as the author or the editor or the checker.

Often the only engineer to stamp and sign things is the department manager. Even though the people working under the manager could have their engineering stamps and everything, signing stuff and making it legal without passing it by the manager is a great way to get fired and possibly sued. Anyone who is convinced that the author of the report is an engineer but it doesn't have initials after his name and it has no stamp on it and there's no license number on it is a fucking idiot. I hope they never go into a court room. Everyone wearing a suit is automatically assumed to be lawyer unless they wear a name tag that says "I am not a lawyer"

I am a PE and in the Law of my state preparing engineering work without a PE can be considering illegal. It all just depends on how it was presented and to who. Preliminary drawings, reports, etc are all supposed to be marked as preliminary, also. I think this specific case falls into a gray area that just depends on how it was presented and to who. (Preparing as in a completed work, not as in preliminary work later given to a PE to sign)

Nonsense-the guy never did or said anything to misrepresent the report as being done by an engineer or to any particular engineering standards. The gist of the complaint is that the report is so well done that maybe someone would think an engineer did it therefore this guy is misrepresenting himself as an engineer.

That's like saying anyone who prints neatly is misrepresenting themselves as a draftsman.

The public official who filed this complaint should have the expense to the public (not to mention outright harassment of citizens) considered very negatively in his next performance review-or better yet, in the layoffs in his department. Its purely a case of a petty tyrant bureaucrat trying to protect his turf from citizen input.

Without seeing the report it is impossible to know how it was presented. It probably is just an overreach of a bureaucrat who was upset. The state engineering board is more than qualified to make a reasonable decision on this and will.

People with out PE's are still engineers. A PE is just a legally responsible engineer.

Just don't go out and start a business named "Pulsar's Engineering" or offer to engineer something (that the law requires a PE for) for someone outside of work.

 

[hal2kilo]

I am a PE and in the Law of my state preparing engineering work without a PE can be considering illegal. It all just depends on how it was presented and to who. Preliminary drawings, reports, etc are all supposed to be marked as preliminary, also. I think this specific case falls into a gray area that just depends on how it was presented and to who.

At least from what I've seen, nobody misrepresented themselves. Nobody claimed they were engineers. They just presented well documented facts as anybody trying to prove something in an unbaised logical manor would. I never knew a civilian presenting information that way would be accused of impersonating, which essentianally is what the claim this is all about, would be accused of trying to misrepresent themselves as an engineer with "magic paper".

 

[Engineer]

At least from what I've seen, nobody misrepresented themselves. Nobody claimed they were engineers. They just presented well documented facts as anybody trying to prove something in an unbaised logical manor would. I never knew a civilian presenting information that way would be accused of impersonating, which esentialy is what the claim this is all about, would be accused of trying to misrepresenting themselves as an engineer with "magic paper".

From what I have read (without seeing other details), I agree with this assessment. It's not like they were giving out a bid to work or stating that the reports/documents "HAD" to be used...it was only to prove that a light was needed. There are people in the world other than PE's who have decent, real ideas and these people seem to have done it the right way and the guy in charge decided to be a douche. Will change opinion only on new evidence.

I guess I should be slapped with a penalty when I petitioned the Lexington city streets division with data/facts in getting an overturn on the yellow curb painting in front of my house, regardless of a school being there. Sits back and waits for the Engineering Police to knock on my door...

**hold on...someone is ringing the doorbell now.....be right back...

 

[Zorba]

From what I have read (without seeing other details), I agree with this assessment. It's not like they were giving out a bid to work or stating that the reports/documents "HAD" to be used...it was only to prove that a light was needed. There are people in the world other than PE's who have decent, real ideas and these people seem to have done it the right way and the guy in charge decided to be a douche. Will change opinion only on new evidence.

I guess I should be slapped with a penalty when I petitioned the Lexington city streets division with data/facts in getting an overturn on the yellow curb painting in front of my house, regardless of a school being there. Sits back and waits for the Engineering Police to knock on my door...

**hold on...someone is ringing the doorbell now.....be right back...

In this case I agree it doesn't seem like a big deal and the board likely won' do anything except maybe issue a letter telling him to label his work as not being from an engineer.

The reason it matters is because what if this report looked really good, but wasn't correct at all. Now say he took it to the city council, who are idiots by definition, and they just assumed it was an engineering report based on the content layout and the fact that nothing said it wasn't. That city council could now act on that bad data, even though the guy never directly claimed he was an engineer.

As for the "magic paper" crowd. To get a PE requires years of experience and the passing of a series of tests, the whole point is to prove that you are somewhat competent. You do not have to have a college degree to become a PE, although it takes more work experience without a degree. Even with the PE you are only able to practice in areas that you are competent. PEs get fined/suspended all the time because they go beyond the scope of their competence. So the license isn't a permit to go out and act as god while holding everyone else down. And as others have said, there is a massive amount of engineering that you can do, which requires no certification or license. It just so happens that pretty much everything dealing with the construction and layout of roads requires a PE stamp, for very good reason.

 

[Engineer]

In this case I agree it doesn't seem like a big deal and the board likely won' do anything except maybe issue a letter telling him to label his work as not being from an engineer.

The reason it matters is because what if this report looked really good, but wasn't correct at all. Now say he took it to the city council, who are idiots by definition, and they just assumed it was an engineering report based on the content layout and the fact that nothing said it wasn't. That city council could now act on that bad data, even though the guy never directly claimed he was an engineer.

I'm sorry but that is just ass backwards. I suppose that everyone writing up something that even resembles an engineering report should just KNOW that they are supposed to write on it that this is not an engineering report and is not written by a professional engineer? Sorry, it should be simply place your PE stamp on it for proof and if it doesn't have it, then it's not an official report. Now if it were passed off deliberately as an engineering report by a PE, then sure, kick the guy(s) in the ass but that doesn't seem to be the case here and, barring other proof, is just stupid.

Why should the general public have to know engineering law? If the city council or any other department is making these decisions, they should have a competent staff capable of reviewing any report and making the appropriate decisions. If not, that is the real problem here...not people writing an informed document that appears to be an engineering report.

 

[Zorba]

I'm sorry but that is just ass backwards. I suppose that everyone writing up something that even resembles an engineering report should just KNOW that they are supposed to write on it that this is not an engineering report and is not written by a professional engineer? Sorry, it should be simply place your PE stamp on it for proof and if it doesn't have it, then it's not an official report. Now if it were passed off deliberately as an engineering report by a PE, then sure, kick the guy(s) in the ass but that doesn't seem to be the case here and, barring other proof, is just stupid.

Why should the general public have to know engineering law? If the city council or any other department is making these decisions, they should have a competent staff capable of reviewing any report and making the appropriate decisions. If not, that is the real problem here...not people writing an informed document that appears to be an engineering report.

Ignorance of the law is not a good defense. If you write a report, packed full of equations and references to engineering codes, you run of the risk of a lay person thinking it is an engineering work, even without a stamp. The problem with relying on a stamp alone is that most people have no idea that a stamp is required and then they really have no idea what a real one looks like. I meet a draftsmen who acted like an architect and use the "Green Builders" seal to make his work look more official, most people would have no idea they were getting duped, even though he never directly claimed he was an architect.

Oklahoma Law (very similar to most states):

Section 475.1. Licensure as engineer or land surveyor - Privilege

In order to safeguard life, health and property, and to promote the public welfare, the practice of engineering and the practice of land surveying in this state are hereby declared to be subject to regulation in the public interest. It shall be unlawful to practice or to offer to practice engineering or land surveying in this state, as defined in the provisions of Section 475.1 et seq. of this title, or to use in connection with any name or otherwise assume or advertise any title or description tending to convey the impression that any person is an engineer, professional engineer, land surveyor or professional land surveyor, unless such person has been duly licensed under the provisions of Section 475.1 et seq. of this title. The practice of engineering or land surveying shall be deemed a privilege granted by the state through the State Board of Licensure for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors, based on the qualifications of the individual as evidenced by a certificate of licensure, which shall not be transferable.

Section 475.2. Definitions:

As used in Section 475.1 et seq. of this title:

4. "Practice of engineering" means any service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training and experience in the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such services or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning and design of engineering works and systems, planning the engineering use of land and water, teaching of advanced engineering subjects or courses related thereto, engineering research, engineering surveys, engineering studies, and the inspection or review of construction for the purposes of assuring compliance with drawings and specifications; any of which embraces such services or work, either public or private, in connection with any utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, work systems, projects, and industrial or consumer products or equipment of a mechanical, electrical, chemical, environmental, hydraulic, pneumatic or thermal nature, insofar as they involve safeguarding life, health or property, and including such other professional services as may be necessary to the design review and integration of a multidiscipline work, planning, progress and completion of any engineering services.

...

A person or entity shall be construed to practice or offer to practice engineering, within the meaning and intent of Section 475.1 et seq. of this title who does any of the following: practices any branch of the profession of engineering; by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way represents such person to be a professional engineer, through the use of some other title implies that any person is a professional engineer or is licensed or qualified under Section 475.1 et seq. of this title; or who represents qualifications or ability to perform or who does practice engineering;

Just remember every time you drive across a bridge, these laws are there for a reason.

 

[hal2kilo]

Ignorance of the law is not a good defense. If you write a report, packed full of equations and references to engineering codes, you run of the risk of a lay person thinking it is an engineering work, even without a stamp.

Oklahoma Law (very similar to most states):




Just remember every time you drive across a bridge, these laws are there for a reason.

O god forbid, someone shows up someone in the elitist trade class.

 

[Howard]

This is hilarious because I can't seem to find out what's going on. Nobody even commissioned any changes!

 

[Zorba]

O god forbid, someone shows up someone in the elitist trade class.

Maybe in this case, but what happens when the person is dead wrong and someone else acts on that information? As far as "elitist" goes, as I said anyone can get a PE if they get the experience and take the test. If you have never worked as an engineer and can't pass the test, then I am very glad you won't be designing any bridges I'll be driving over. There are millions of engineering jobs that do not require a PE, such as aviation and auto.

 

[1prophet]

Maybe in this case, but what happens when the person is dead wrong and someone else acts on that information? As far as "elitist" goes, as I said anyone can get a PE if they get the experience and take the test. If you have never worked as an engineer and can't pass the test, then I am very glad you won't be designing any bridges I'll be driving over. There are millions of engineering jobs that do not require a PE, such as aviation and auto.

Town, village, city planning and zoning boards are required to have licensed engineers and lawyers on retainer at all times by law in all municipalities that I have seen.


To claim someone with no license can make them do things through an eloquent but unlicensed engineering report is disengeniuos at best since all changes have to be reviewed by their legal and engineering advisors.

 

[Engineer]

Ignorance of the law is not a good defense.


The problem with relying on a stamp alone is that most people have no idea that a stamp is required and then they really have no idea what a real one looks like.

The above two go hand in hand. So people are expected to know the law on engineering documents but it's OK to not know what a stamp looks like or whether it's required? Like I said (as others have said), it was a recommendation with good data and the city should have qualified people to examine and approve any project and not just rely on blind faith. As a matter of fact, it should be LAW instead of the bullshit that the person(people) in the OP are being charged with.

I'm not knocking a PE and their roll (I know them, and pretty well considering I know what it's worth and stand for) but the above case, unless something else is shown, is just pure bullshit and to defend it as anything else is just that, IMHO.

 

[sandorski]

This thread warrants Investigation of Practicing

1) Law
2) Religion

without a License!



So someone decided to take the time to propose something that would make sense(intentionally anyway)to an Engineer and now they're in hot water for it? I suppose we should not ever try to do anything right or put any effort into something. Should have just called the City Engineer a Communist and start a campaign to get him Fired for Treason!

 

[Vette73]

In this case I agree it doesn't seem like a big deal and the board likely won' do anything except maybe issue a letter telling him to label his work as not being from an engineer.

The reason it matters is because what if this report looked really good, but wasn't correct at all. Now say he took it to the city council, who are idiots by definition, and they just assumed it was an engineering report based on the content layout and the fact that nothing said it wasn't. That city council could now act on that bad data, even though the guy never directly claimed he was an engineer.

As for the "magic paper" crowd. To get a PE requires years of experience and the passing of a series of tests, the whole point is to prove that you are somewhat competent. You do not have to have a college degree to become a PE, although it takes more work experience without a degree. Even with the PE you are only able to practice in areas that you are competent. PEs get fined/suspended all the time because they go beyond the scope of their competence. So the license isn't a permit to go out and act as god while holding everyone else down. And as others have said, there is a massive amount of engineering that you can do, which requires no certification or license. It just so happens that pretty much everything dealing with the construction and layout of roads requires a PE stamp, for very good reason.

And if some jackass board told me that I reply with 100 pages of…

Page 1
I am not a lawyer. I am going to replay to your standing request and it may sound legal but…

Page 2
I am not a delivery man. Yes I did bring this to you but I am not a professional delivery person…

Page 3
I am not an English teacher. Yes my words are in English but I am not a…


Page 100
I did receive your request but disagree with it. I will do any work I feel is right representing not only myself but my community. Nowhere did I say I was an engineer in my last work or even this work. If you think I broke the law in any way then charge me and let a jury decide. If not then your opinion is just that, a biased and incorrect opinion.

I request a formal apology and response to this letter in regards to all information supplied.

I would also send copies to the local news and newspapers. I would make it as public as I can to show the people what their tax money was being spent on.

 

[Murloc]

how stupid.
Even if he's not an engineer, it doesn't mean he can't prove his point with science.

 

[Vette73]

how stupid.
Even if he's not an engineer, it doesn't mean he can't prove his point with science.

Wait... hes a scientist now? :awe:

 

[Modelworks]

Blame the city. This is more NC BS. Whoever did the handling of the paperwork should be brought up on charges for not making sure he was licensed for the work. Licensing is important. If you are an EE and design a TV for a company , they sell that TV , homes burn down, people die, all because you designed something wrong and in the investigation it is found that you were not licensed, you, the company and everyone involved will be liable for the damages and deaths. Organizations like the IEEE exist for a reason.
http://www.ieee.org

 

[MikeMike]

Blame the city. This is more NC BS. Whoever did the handling of the paperwork should be brought up on charges for not making sure he was licensed for the work. Licensing is important. If you are an EE and design a TV for a company , they sell that TV , homes burn down, people die, all because you designed something wrong and in the investigation it is found that you were not licensed, you, the company and everyone involved will be liable for the damages and deaths. Organizations like the IEEE exist for a reason.
http://www.ieee.org

wait, what are you arguing?

your first line says you side with the stupidity argument.

then you argue for the other side...

huh?