Making a killing

[HardWarrior]

Gunfire rang out in Nisour Square as people fled for their lives. Witnesses described a horrifying scene of indiscriminate shooting by the Blackwater guards. In all, as many as twenty-eight Iraqis may have been killed, and doctors say the toll could climb, as some victims remain in critical condition. A company spokesperson said Blackwater's forces "acted lawfully and appropriately" and "heroically defended American lives in a war zone." Blackwater's version of events is hotly disputed, not only by the Iraqi government, which says it has video to prove the shooting was unprovoked, but also by survivors of the attack. "I saw women and children jump out of their cars and start to crawl on the road to escape being shot," said Iraqi lawyer Hassan Jabar Salman, who was shot four times in the back during the incident. "But still the firing kept coming and many of them were killed. I saw a boy of about 10 leaping in fear from a minibus--he was shot in the head. His mother was crying out for him. She jumped out after him, and she was killed."

Making a killing, Jeremy Scahill

How would American's behave if they were faced with an occupation that featured atrocities like this? I'd like to believe that I'd do everything possible to force the occupier to leave.

 

[eits]

haha "making a killing"... nice

 

[HardWarrior]

You're a fast reader, eits.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Gunfire rang out in Nisour Square as people fled for their lives. Witnesses described a horrifying scene of indiscriminate shooting by the Blackwater guards. In all, as many as twenty-eight Iraqis may have been killed, and doctors say the toll could climb, as some victims remain in critical condition. A company spokesperson said Blackwater's forces "acted lawfully and appropriately" and "heroically defended American lives in a war zone." Blackwater's version of events is hotly disputed, not only by the Iraqi government, which says it has video to prove the shooting was unprovoked, but also by survivors of the attack. "I saw women and children jump out of their cars and start to crawl on the road to escape being shot," said Iraqi lawyer Hassan Jabar Salman, who was shot four times in the back during the incident. "But still the firing kept coming and many of them were killed. I saw a boy of about 10 leaping in fear from a minibus--he was shot in the head. His mother was crying out for him. She jumped out after him, and she was killed."

Making a killing, Jeremy Scahill

How would American's behave if they were faced with an occupation that featured atrocities like this? I'd like to believe that I'd do everything possible to force the occupier to leave.

Mercs in a combat zone, without chain of command, above civilian law and military law is not applicable.

If it was up to me they would be shot on sight but it's not up to me.

 

[Craig234]

Isn't it sad that we liberals say this is unacceptable before there's a problem, but it takes something like a video of children being gunned down before some people say "oh, that's bad, let's fix it."

Words are cheap, for Blackwater to use to defend their actions. They know that they get the benefit of the doubt and have the government on their side.

This lets them get away with, well, you know, too easily.

How many righties would put up with the same situation here?

They'll scream all day over an Elian (sp?) Gonzales being lawfully returned to his father because of their ideology against Castro, but not worry about kids shot in incidents like this.

 

[maddogchen]

pretty bias article.

Whatever happened to that Iraqi report that Blackwater helicopters were making passes and firing at people on the ground?

Iraqi president Maliki is just using this incident to draw attention away from his government's failures. Easier to draw attention to the foreigners while Iraqi insurgents and militias continue to kill civilians at a higher rate than Blackwater can possibly do. I find it funny how Sadr is calling for Blackwater expulsion when his militia has torture and killed more civilians in any given month than Blackwater did in a year. Iraqis should be more focused on cracking down on Sadr's murderous henchmen than Blackwater.

 

[HardWarrior]

Did anyone notice that the leading democrat candidates have all agreed to a "no promises about pulling out of Iraq" plank? Considering the fact that a clear majority of Americans want out of Iraq PDQ, this posture is just dumbfounding.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
pretty bias article.

In what way?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
pretty bias article.

Whatever happened to that Iraqi report that Blackwater helicopters were making passes and firing at people on the ground?

Iraqi president Maliki is just using this incident to draw attention away from his government's failures. Easier to draw attention to the foreigners while Iraqi insurgents and militias continue to kill civilians at a higher rate than Blackwater can possibly do. I find it funny how Sadr is calling for Blackwater expulsion when his militia has torture and killed more civilians in any given month than Blackwater did in a year. Iraqis should be more focused on cracking down on Sadr's murderous henchmen than Blackwater.

I think we need to hold the security forces that are employed to a higher standard than the terrorists, obviously you disagree?

The Insurgency and it's members are without a doubt more than willing to kill civilians or even more so to draw fire to the civilians, Blackwater isn't part of the insurgency, most of them are good men, spec op forces that are highly trained but they are not responsible for their own actions to their local command, they don't have the chain of command where course of action isn't "shoot straight into a bunch of civilians, draw fire from everywhere and jeopardize the people you are meant to keep safe".

I don't get why people defend Blackwater, they are a group of people paid by YOU through your tax dollars and they are not doing a good job, in fact, they are mercs in a combat zone, only rogue regimes and the US allow that.

 

[Lemon law]

Where is the video so we can view it an judge for ourselves?

But the idea of having State sponsored militia like blackwater is always a bad idea in MHO.

Inventing deflections like pointing out various aspects of the Iraqi government sucks too has nothing to do with the thread subject. Blackwater adds to the general problem and there is no getting around it.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Gunfire rang out in Nisour Square as people fled for their lives. Witnesses described a horrifying scene of indiscriminate shooting by the Blackwater guards. In all, as many as twenty-eight Iraqis may have been killed, and doctors say the toll could climb, as some victims remain in critical condition. A company spokesperson said Blackwater's forces "acted lawfully and appropriately" and "heroically defended American lives in a war zone." Blackwater's version of events is hotly disputed, not only by the Iraqi government, which says it has video to prove the shooting was unprovoked, but also by survivors of the attack. "I saw women and children jump out of their cars and start to crawl on the road to escape being shot," said Iraqi lawyer Hassan Jabar Salman, who was shot four times in the back during the incident. "But still the firing kept coming and many of them were killed. I saw a boy of about 10 leaping in fear from a minibus--he was shot in the head. His mother was crying out for him. She jumped out after him, and she was killed."

Making a killing, Jeremy Scahill

How would American's behave if they were faced with an occupation that featured atrocities like this? I'd like to believe that I'd do everything possible to force the occupier to leave.

Mercs in a combat zone, without chain of command, above civilian law and military law is not applicable.

If it was up to me they would be shot on sight but it's not up to me.

http://washingtontimes.com/app...109270045/1003/foreign

Contractors may fall under military law
By Sharon Behn
September 27, 2007

Pentagon officials suggested yesterday that U.S. civilian security contractors in Iraq fall under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice and could be prosecuted in military courts for offenses against Iraqis.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell told reporters that while U.S. civilians working in Iraq under Department of Defense contracts were not subject to Iraqi law, they could be held accountable under U.S. law.

Iraqi officials have complained of their inability to prosecute civilian contractors, some of whom have been accused of shooting indiscriminately into crowds and killing innocent civilians. Questions have been raised whether the contractors are subject to any law at all.

But Mr. Morrell said yesterday that the United States has the means through the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act and the Uniform Code of Military Justice "to hold contractors accountable."

"We have the means to go after them through the Department of Justice and we have the means to go after them through the military courts," he said.
.
.
.
Iraqi authorities threatened to expel all Blackwater employees from the country as a result, but later retreated for fear of creating a shortage of security officers. The contractors cannot be prosecuted under Iraqi law under an order issued by the Coalition Provisional Authority in 2004 making private contractors immune from prosecution under Iraqi law.

What are they waiting for?

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
What are they waiting for?

For the whole thing to die in the American media so they can go back to pulling the same sorts of things.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
What are they waiting for?

For the whole thing to die in the American media so they can go back to pulling the same sorts of things.

Like you, I find it hard to believe that the American people aren't up in arms that we have merc's running loose in Iraq that seem to be able to literally get away with murder. What has happened to us??? Are we that scared of our goverment/leaders or are we all just to fat and complacent to give a damn??

 

[nick1985]

Isnt this why they are getting thrown out of the country?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
What are they waiting for?

For the whole thing to die in the American media so they can go back to pulling the same sorts of things.

Like you, I find it hard to believe that the American people aren't up in arms that we have merc's running loose in Iraq that seem to be able to literally get away with murder. What has happened to us??? Are we that scared of our goverment/leaders or are we all just to fat and complacent to give a damn??

Yes. I have posted recently about the problem that some Americans who have no more obligation, other than morally, voting on the violence committed against Iraqis isn't fair.

It's too much a 'spectator sport' for Americans to make those calls, IMO.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: nick1985
Isnt this why they are getting thrown out of the country?

They are not really thrown out yet and to a certain extent may change names to avoid punishment. This does not yet address the larger issues of US sponsored militias that flat
out don't belong.

Its the larger issue that must be addressed because the abuse is inevitable. If your solution is to punish only the worst of the worst, you miss the point and support organized crime.

To paraphrase the bard, a turd by any other name still stinks and will always stink.

 

[palehorse]

1) the enemy's bullets could have been the ones that killed any bystanders - or it could have been a mixture of both.
2) some or all of the dead male Iraqi's could have been insurgents or terrorists involved in the ambush.
3) Blackwater could have fired indiscriminately and been wrong in doing so.
4) Blackwater could have killed the bystanders on purpose.
5) Insurgents and/or terrorists could have killed the bystanders on purpose.
6) Insurgents and/or terrorists could have laid the ambush in that location on purpose, with the intent of drawing fire into the bystanders.

etc etc...

Get my point? Is anyone here, at all, going to give those involved the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise? Or is it simply normal procedure and acceptable at this point to blame Americans every time something happens?

Many of the "mercenaries" in Iraq and Afghanistan are very honorable men/women who are doing very brave and heroic work on a daily basis. I can't stand it when accusations of wrongdoing are leveled against entire groups of people for the crimes of a few - this goes for any group, anywhere, doing anything.

If someone did something wrong, then they should be prosecuted for it, and punished accordingly; but jumping up and condemning the Americans involved, without any reasonable knowledge of the specifics, is downright un-fvcking-American.

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: maddogchen
pretty bias article.

In what way?

You didn't think so? The tone and things in the article for example: the last paragraph makes it look highly bias. It makes the article seem like a personal attack against Prince and Blackwater. Erik Prince is the owner of Blackwater.

Those are good questions. But it is unfortunate that it has taken four years of the most privatized war in US history for Congress to ask them. Last time Prince was invited to appear before Congress, he sent his lawyer instead. This time Waxman could choose to use the power of the subpoena. As has finally become clear to some in Congress, war contracting is not merely about squandered taxpayer dollars. It is about life and death. The stakes are far too high to let Prince and his cronies call (or fire) any more shots.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
What are they waiting for?

For the whole thing to die in the American media so they can go back to pulling the same sorts of things.

Like you, I find it hard to believe that the American people aren't up in arms that we have merc's running loose in Iraq that seem to be able to literally get away with murder. What has happened to us??? Are we that scared of our goverment/leaders or are we all just to fat and complacent to give a damn??

All good questions. In my experience the American people can control the government, but only if we're loud enough about it. The numbers are there. It's just a matter of time.

You guys want to know what really irks me about this entire affair? We never seem to learn.

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: maddogchen
pretty bias article.

Whatever happened to that Iraqi report that Blackwater helicopters were making passes and firing at people on the ground?

Iraqi president Maliki is just using this incident to draw attention away from his government's failures. Easier to draw attention to the foreigners while Iraqi insurgents and militias continue to kill civilians at a higher rate than Blackwater can possibly do. I find it funny how Sadr is calling for Blackwater expulsion when his militia has torture and killed more civilians in any given month than Blackwater did in a year. Iraqis should be more focused on cracking down on Sadr's murderous henchmen than Blackwater.

I think we need to hold the security forces that are employed to a higher standard than the terrorists, obviously you disagree?

The Insurgency and it's members are without a doubt more than willing to kill civilians or even more so to draw fire to the civilians, Blackwater isn't part of the insurgency, most of them are good men, spec op forces that are highly trained but they are not responsible for their own actions to their local command, they don't have the chain of command where course of action isn't "shoot straight into a bunch of civilians, draw fire from everywhere and jeopardize the people you are meant to keep safe".

I don't get why people defend Blackwater, they are a group of people paid by YOU through your tax dollars and they are not doing a good job, in fact, they are mercs in a combat zone, only rogue regimes and the US allow that.

I'm not really defending Blackwater. I just think the way the Iraqi government went about this is trying to draw attention away from their shortcomings. This incident happened and they tried to immediately seize on the resentment against foreigners that many Iraqis feel. One of the many tools that governments that hang by a thread because of their own incompetence use is to find a foreign scapegoat for their problems. I think this is what Maliki's government is doing.

What they should have done was properly conduct an investigation into what happened. Instead of responding to chaotic reports within hours of the event and making a big deal about banning Blackwater. The joint US-Iraqi investigation into this is still being conducted. I think we should wait till this is done before placing judgement on Blackwater.

What I do agree is that there is not enough supervision of private security companies. And like many people, I don't understand why this hasn't been addressed a lot earlier?

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
You didn't think so? The tone and things in the article for example: the last paragraph makes it look highly bias. It makes the article seem like a personal attack against Prince and Blackwater. Erik Prince is the owner of Blackwater.

Of course I think the piece was biased. It is an op-ed. I'm interested in why you see it as such. Even if the incident was reported as news only on the front page of the Chicago Tribune I'd expect some bias. There's no mushy middle when it comes to things like this. Personal attack? The writer thought it was important for the reader to know who owns Blackwater and about the company's political ties and you take it as something personal?

So, how do you feel about the recreational slaughter of the Iraqi people?

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Okay...

Dude, we aren't lawyers standing in front of a judge here. I can jump to all the conclusions I want, based on what I already know. And I'm sure as hell not going to waste my time trying to parse yet another "It was the bad apples!" defense. I can't help but wonder if you'd be so magnanimous if you were on the receiving end of what the fed is feeding the Iraqi's.

 

[StageLeft]

This incident happened and they tried to immediately seize on the resentment against foreigners that many Iraqis feel. One of the many tools that governments that hang by a thread because of their own incompetence use is to find a foreign scapegoat for their problems.

I don't want to use the four-letter B word, but the irony here is so thick I am hacking at it with an axe and cannot even chip it.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

This incident happened and they tried to immediately seize on the resentment against foreigners that many Iraqis feel. One of the many tools that governments that hang by a thread because of their own incompetence use is to find a foreign scapegoat for their problems.

I don't want to use the four-letter B word, but the irony here is so thick I am hacking at it with an axe and cannot even chip it.

Heh, I read that and didn't even notice the irony.... until you pointed it out.