Major corporation with $18B in sales and $619MM in profits will pay zero tax in 2010

[Fear No Evil]

These pesky little facts do not matter to the fools that constantly bow down to big business here. They piss and moan that poor workers pay little to any income tax and when it is pointed out they still have to pay little things like SSI, Medicare, State Taxes, Sales Taxes, etc it always falls on deaf ears. Typical hypocritical bullshit.

So you admit that if someone doesn't pay Federal income taxes they still pay a lot of other taxes? Maybe that applies to businesses as well? Typical hypocritical bullshit.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

I don't know much about this, but from the info in the thread, it sounds like they get tax credits for producing more energy efficient appliances.

So they spend more to create more energy efficient appliances which they then sell for (presumably) less than they'd like to so they can remain competitive. Because of this, they get a tax credit.

I don't really have a problem with this. Instead of giving the government money and charging a standard margin, they take a lower margin and don't give the government money. In return, the government gets to ensure that more energy efficient products are out there.

The manufacturers still come out ahead on this. The appliances are the same price that they've always been, and I doubt it costs nearly as much as the tax credit to get the energy star certification.

If I have time later I will take a look at Whirlpool's financial statements and look at COGS/revenue and net profit/revenue over the past few years. I bet COGS has stayed about the same and net profit has gone way up.

 

[Macamus Prime]

It's very simple; they don't get taxed, so they can distribute the wealth,... to the wealthy. Thus making them wealthier!!

 

[the DRIZZLE]

duh? the only way to cure this is a straight up flat tax, no if and or buts. figure it out whatever the percentage needs to be, but make sure every goddamn person(and corporation/business/whatthefuckever) pays their goddamn share. the mere fact we have such a bloated entity as the IRS and our tax code should be reason enough for anyone to want a simple flat tax.

The US has the highest statutory rate in the developed world, but the effective rate is similar to other countries. This means that tax breaks make up the difference. It also means that we have the largest difference between the statutory and effective tax rates. Economists consider this difference a measure of the economic efficiency of the tax code. The larger is it is, the more market distortions you are causing.

 

[piasabird]

Their stockholders were probably paid first. Believe half of what you read. They may owe more money than they actually made. There is insurance to pay, payrolls to meet, etc. How much did they pay in dividends? How much was reinvested for inventory?

The object of being in business is to make money. They are like everyone else. If their are some credits or deductions to make, then they are going to make and take everything they can to avoid paying taxes. They are just like you.

 

[piasabird]

Their stockholders were probably paid first. Believe half of what you read. They may owe more money than they actually made. There is insurance to pay, payrolls to meet, etc. How much did they pay in dividends? How much was reinvested for inventory?

The object of being in business is to make money. They are like everyone else. If there are some credits or deductions to make, then they are going to make and take everything they can to avoid paying taxes. They are just like you.

 

[drebo]

When will you bleeding hearts realize trick-down can make not only the shareholders rich but everybody else, too? For example:

http://michiganmessenger.com/35084/whirlpool-to-outsource-refrigerator-manufacturing-to-mexico



See, trickle-down, think of all those Mexicans who now have work. And the folk who were employed in Evansville can perform any multitude of jobs from working the late shift at Applebees to working at a car wash to greeting at Walmart. It's a win-win for everybody.

Maybe if local, state, and federal government agencies in the US didn't try to fuck over businesses so much with stupid taxes, fees, and other regulatory bullshit, and maybe if workers in the US would realize that minimum wage doesn't help them, Whirlpool would continue to employ in the US.

You can't want to tax the shit out of someone, regulate the fuck out of their business, and force them to pay inflated wages (which only causes inflation and doesn't actually help the people getting those wages) and still expect them to want to keep their business here. That's just not how it works. America is killing itself because of their entitlement attitude. Government feels its entitled to this...employees feel they're entitled to that... I don't blame them for moving to Mexico. Wasn't there a time when Americans were greatful to be employed?

The way to fix this is to get rid of all payroll, income, and social security taxes and replace them with a VAT. Whirlpool pays VAT on the parts it buys, customers pay VAT on the completed product, government gets its money and Whirlpool's overhead goes way down. The tax code is simplified and everyone pays "their fair share."

You can't force corporations to stay, and over-regulating and over-taxing them will only drive them away. Corporations have to want to do business here.

 

[CPA]

Are there not companies that pay all that and income tax too?

Actually, I don't believe anyone should pay income tax. But, in any case, my point was that the Topic Title is not accurate. I guess I was too subtle.

 

[HumblePie]

I'm somewhere between these two posts. On the one hand, corporations don't pay taxes; they are passed on to either their stockholders (who do pay taxes) or to their customers (who pay increased taxes to make up the difference, but would also pay higher prices for energy efficient appliances. On the other hand, I like that the government provides incentives to encourage more energy efficient appliances. On the third hand, I dislike that government has the control to dictate winning and losing industries via tax policy. On the fourth hand - well, I shall use that hand to squeeze my head together lest my brain explode.

Hey, at least we're getting more efficient appliances.

Easier way for the government to influence producers to make better products is to give tax breaks to the consumers who purchase those products instead. Then the consumers have a reason to go buy more, the companies sell more, there is more competition because now every company competes with equal footing, there is no lobbying or chance for corruption on this issue, and the government actually makes more money through taxes as well.

Instead we got this retarded subsidy that doesn't need to be in place.

 

[CPA]

You and that guy are idiots. Based on what I did several years ago, I saw the tax returns for a company that made $150 million profit and still collected a $12 million tax refund. Thats a joke. Tax incentives and breaks are so that companies make money. But the system is broken because the incentives have now become so that companies make money just off the incentives alone. Its reverse earned income credit. Its a joke and it would be sad if it wasn't so pathetic.

That's both a Dem and Repub fault. The whole tax code needs to be scrapped. Scrap the Income Tax and go to a sales tax. Why we tax productivity and risk is beyond me.

 

[CPA]

all these they pass to their customer as a cost of operating business. but they don't pay tax on their profits.

Which, by the way is passed to the consumer as well. See how this works?

 

[Hacp]

That's both a Dem and Repub fault. The whole tax code needs to be scrapped. Scrap the Income Tax and go to a sales tax. Why we tax productivity and risk is beyond me.

Even a sales tax should be limited to a certain dollar amount. Why punish people for making higher quality and priced goods by making it more expensive?

 

[ElFenix]

So they spend more to create more energy efficient appliances which they then sell for (presumably) less than they'd like to so they can remain competitive. Because of this, they get a tax credit.

sell for less than they like? have you seen the prices of front load laundry stuff?

 

[IBMer]

Their stockholders were probably paid first. Believe half of what you read. They may owe more money than they actually made. There is insurance to pay, payrolls to meet, etc. How much did they pay in dividends? How much was reinvested for inventory?

The object of being in business is to make money. They are like everyone else. If there are some credits or deductions to make, then they are going to make and take everything they can to avoid paying taxes. They are just like you.

You don't understand accounting do you?

 

[classy]

That's both a Dem and Repub fault. The whole tax code needs to be scrapped. Scrap the Income Tax and go to a sales tax. Why we tax productivity and risk is beyond me.

Clearly I agree, this not a political party issue. The system is broken and quite frankly I am willing to admit I am too dumb to understand fully how to fix it, lol. But I do understand basic economics, that a company that makes 10s of millions in profit shouldn't be getting millions in tax refunds. I can understand that the whole EIC is a joke. I can understand the system helping poor people so they don't owe taxes, but it shouldn't be giving refunds in many cases on money they didn't earn.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

We probably bailed them out too....so what old news.

 

[silverpig]

Their Cap Ex certainly doesn't seem like it has gone up by much over the past few years.

Capex isn't input costs. Capex is big stuff like machinery, buildings, etc. Buying a different set of motors for their new washers would go into COGS.

 

[silverpig]

The manufacturers still come out ahead on this. The appliances are the same price that they've always been, and I doubt it costs nearly as much as the tax credit to get the energy star certification.

If I have time later I will take a look at Whirlpool's financial statements and look at COGS/revenue and net profit/revenue over the past few years. I bet COGS has stayed about the same and net profit has gone way up.

Could be the case. I was just guessing as to what the likely story was.

 

[Craig234]

I don't know about him but I sure am.

One flat rate for people.
One flat rate for businesses.
No forms
No lawyers
No politics
Just fair

First, flat rate is not 'fair'. There's a progressive rate for a good reason.

'Fair' is a lie from right-wing propaganda to try to sell yet another wealth redistribution.

Second, eliminating corrupt loopholes has nothing to do with flat versus progressive rate.

We have all kinds of inappropriate 'loopholes' and subsidies - not to mention atrociously bad and selective enforcement (which the Republicans want to slash more).

We should keep progressive rates, make them more corrosive instead of the current rates that have allowed the rich to hoard an increasingly large share of wealth.

We should get rid of corrupt loopholes, and keep some good ones (e.g., blind).

 

[Craig234]

That's both a Dem and Repub fault. The whole tax code needs to be scrapped. Scrap the Income Tax and go to a sales tax. Why we tax productivity and risk is beyond me.

Ridiculous and regressive, just a redistribution of taxes off the rich even more.

 

[Craig234]

Maybe if local, state, and federal government agencies in the US didn't try to fuck over businesses so much with stupid taxes, fees, and other regulatory bullshit, and maybe if workers in the US would realize that minimum wage doesn't help them, Whirlpool would continue to employ in the US.

You can't want to tax the shit out of someone, regulate the fuck out of their business, and force them to pay inflated wages (which only causes inflation and doesn't actually help the people getting those wages) and still expect them to want to keep their business here. That's just not how it works. America is killing itself because of their entitlement attitude. Government feels its entitled to this...employees feel they're entitled to that... I don't blame them for moving to Mexico. Wasn't there a time when Americans were greatful to be employed?

The way to fix this is to get rid of all payroll, income, and social security taxes and replace them with a VAT. Whirlpool pays VAT on the parts it buys, customers pay VAT on the completed product, government gets its money and Whirlpool's overhead goes way down. The tax code is simplified and everyone pays "their fair share."

You can't force corporations to stay, and over-regulating and over-taxing them will only drive them away. Corporations have to want to do business here.

Every sentence of that post is clueless.

A list of how to redistribute taxes off the rich, followed by all kinds of baseless rhetoric by putting "over" in front of things ('over-regulated').

Ya, no corporations want to do business here.

Increasing wages HAS BENEFIT FOR WORKERS AFTER ACCOUNTING FOR INFLATION, BECAUSE THOSE WAGES ARE NOT THE ENTIRE ECONOMY.

Workers should be glad to get enough to eat, screw middle class - the Republican mantra.

Those regulations HAVE A REASON. Damned clueless Republicans.

 

[Schadenfroh]

So, if one starts a company, one should make sure that it produces products that relate to energy conservation or one of the other sectors that the government feels the need to subsidize. What about companies that make doors? If they make them slightly thicker, can they avoid paying taxes because it keeps the heat / cold out 10% than industry average?

duh? the only way to cure this is a straight up flat tax, no if and or buts. figure it out whatever the percentage needs to be, but make sure every goddamn person(and corporation/business/whatthefuckever) pays their goddamn share. the mere fact we have such a bloated entity as the IRS and our tax code should be reason enough for anyone to want a simple flat tax.

QFT

 

[WackyDan]

all these they pass to their customer as a cost of operating business. but they don't pay tax on their profits.

Fine. Lets make them pay taxes on their profits then. Now, lets track an index corporations after the tax hike (closed loopholes) and determine whether their employee base has grown or shrunk.

Point is obvious. You may be taxing the companies, but with a result that imparts a high cost somewhere else on our society. We should be rewarding companies that base their HQ here and manufacture here... Not drive them away.

Catch 22. If you think your elected officials are going to cut your taxes by raising taxes on companies... you are mistaken... they will just spend any increase in tax revenue like they have every time before.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

First, flat rate is not 'fair'. There's a progressive rate for a good reason.

'Fair' is a lie from right-wing propaganda to try to sell yet another wealth redistribution.

Second, eliminating corrupt loopholes has nothing to do with flat versus progressive rate.

We have all kinds of inappropriate 'loopholes' and subsidies - not to mention atrociously bad and selective enforcement (which the Republicans want to slash more).

We should keep progressive rates, make them more corrosive instead of the current rates that have allowed the rich to hoard an increasingly large share of wealth.

We should get rid of corrupt loopholes, and keep some good ones (e.g., blind).

You concede that the loopholes are the problem but then say we need even more progressive rates. The rates are not the problem (except capital gains). In fact they are too progressive. If you closed the loopholes you could move the brackets closer together and still have the system be more progressive than it is now in terms of effective tax rates.

But how about we keep the discussion about corporate tax policy. The corporate tax issue is simpler because you don't have to deal with the issue of progressivism which is really a matter of opinion.

Do you favor these tax incentives or not? Do you favor a revenue neutral reform of the corporate tax code that would reduce the statutory rate and close loopholes? Obama says he does but then he proposes extending all of these tax credits. The truth is liberals like the system the way it is because they cannot resist the urge for social engineering.

 

[Craig234]

You concede that the loopholes are the problem but then say we need even more progressive rates. The rates are not the problem (except capital gains). In fact they are too progressive. If you closed the loopholes you could move the brackets closer together and still have the system be more progressive than it is now in terms of effective tax rates.

But how about we keep the discussion about corporate tax policy. The corporate tax issue is simpler because you don't have to deal with the issue of progressivism which is really a matter of opinion.

Do you favor these tax incentives or not? Do you favor a revenue neutral reform of the corporate tax code that would reduce the statutory rate and close loopholes? Obama says he does but then he proposes extending all of these tax credits. The truth is liberals like the system the way it is because they cannot resist the urge for social engineering.

There are things that society benefits from that it's a good return to give incentives to get people to do them. There are other tax credits that are corrupt.

Right-wingers don't get the difference and have a simplistic notion - anything the government does is harmful.

That's not accurate, rational, balanced, it's idiotic and childish, but leads them to sneer at 'social engineering'.

Social engineering is essential if you don't want a Dickensonian wasteland for humanity; there is good and bad, you need to do it well.

Not allowing monopolies, for example, is "social engineering". Allowing them is "free market" and terrible for society.

But I don't see many righties - and I'm not talking about you - who can have any rational discussion instead of mouthing ideology slogans.

On your questions, I'm for closing the corrupt loopholes and credits; for keeping and expanding the good credits (good for a legitimate government interest for the public).

I'm actually open to REDUCING the corporate tax rates IF they could be reduced in conjunction with other steps to tax the rich more fairly (especially wealth).

Liberals DO NOT 'like the system the way it is because they can't resist social engineering'. You are mixing things up.

Liberals like a certain amount of social engineering, which they can do REGARDLESS of the income or flat tax etc.; there are things liberals want to change in the system.

The bottom line is, do you want a class with widely spread prosperity, more productivity and opportunity and a thriving middle class?

Or do you want a third-world economy where we have a plutocracy and a huge poor class, with less productivity and opportunity but some really rich few people?

That's pretty much the choice between the left and right.