Mainstream Environmentalism vs reality

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Buying products that supposedly impact nature less is the rage. Wouldn't serious environmentalists be excited about this trend, thrilled that society appears willing to take eco-friendly marching orders and do its duty to the planet? But many aren't... a backlash against "buying green" permeates environmentalist circles, with critics frowning upon the new eco-consumers as "green lites," and condemning the capitalization of the green movement.

I am not totally surprised. Nobody should, if you grasp the deeper meaning of true environmentalism.

And excerpt from a typical Article.

In what it implies about changing consumer awareness, some see "green-lightenment" as heartening. And since it creates demand for more environmentally friendly products, many think it's moving in the right direction. Yet, as one professor put it, "We're basically rushing toward a cliff, full speed ahead." Can a fad save us? Experts' replies run the gamut from "it's a mockery," to it's the beginning of ? and maybe a catalyst for ? greater changes to come. But no one thinks that green consumption alone can get humanity out of its climate predicament. As Alex Steffen, cofounder of worldchanging.com, an environmental- commentary website, writes: "There is no combination of purchasing decisions which will make the current affluent American lifestyle sustainable. You can't shop your way to sustainability."

Anyone following the extreme environmentalists know their goal is not any benefit to mankind; their goal is to preserve nature untouched... to prevent nature from being altered for human purposes or progress. Hard environmentalism does not value human well-being. They demand sacrifices, not for the sake of any human benefit, but for the sake of leaving nature pristine. They call for sacrifice as an end in itself. Environmentalists are criticizing "buying green," because at root they are against buying anything.

Normal people might call for certain sacrifices but people take the environmentalists word for it that those sacrifices will turn out to be for the good of society. People feel virtuous going green because they see it as a sacrifice for the greater good. And although "going green" may demand some cost and effort, it need not be too burdensome.

We see environmentalists claim to be opposed to simply "indiscriminate" or "excessive" consumption of natural resources... but their ideology actually drives them to oppose any act of altering nature for human purposes. Anyone who thinks that there's nothing potentially sinister about the core movement had better think harder about the true nature of the ideology they are helping to make popular. The environmentalist call for minor sacrifices is the first stage, and as they gain in power and acceptance, expect much more. I think the "backlash" against "green" by the hardcores signifies the next stage... deeper sacrifice for no human benefit whatsoever.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
I agree about the extremists, but I notice how you freely changed between calling them "extreme environmentalists" and just plain old "environmentalists". You wouldn't happen to be trying to tar everyone with the same brush, would you now? ;)

I think the wackos get all the attention for the same reason I think "buying green" is a really good step forward. In order for real environmentalism to work, it needs to be something people can tolerate and something that's mainstream enough to attract enough attention from people who can make real progress. For the wackos, this is a bad thing since it turns environmentalism from living in the forest and eating only organic pine cones into a broad movement that can affect real change. And for the idiots who want to keep driving their monster SUVs, it's exactly the same problem...they want at all costs to convince the average Joe that ALL environmentalism wants to totally destroy our lifestyle. And ultimately, it's the people at both extremes that will hold us back.

Buying green is a GREAT step forward in my mind, because it marginalizes the wackos and marginalizes the SUV-first people at the same time. Talk about energy efficiency!
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
I don't think that most people understand what "buying CO credits" really mean, buying something at the given price doesn't mean you'll get it back, someone else can buy it by decreasing their output.

All in all it's a fairly good system... for China.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
I don't think that most people understand what "buying CO credits" really mean, buying something at the given price doesn't mean you'll get it back, someone else can buy it by decreasing their output.

All in all it's a fairly good system... for China.

What are you talking about...I'm not entirely sure YOU know what "buying CO credits" really means. It means you are buying a certificate to offset your carbon output, which means the person or company you are buying the credit from output LESS. It's not a perfect system, but it an excellent way to try to offset your carbon output when you can't actually reduce it yourself...getting someone else to reduce their output is the next best thing.

A far better system is to allow things like choice of green energy in the power grid if you want it. Despite it costing more money, I'm seriously considering switching to a power company that generates 100% of the electricity they sell to you from wind power. Obviously the wind isn't blowing every second, but like every other grid based system, the amount of wind power they generate for each person is equal to how much you take out, it's just that every second your power doesn't HAVE to be coming directly from wind...but it all averages out. It's a pretty cool concept, and it allows you to put your money where your mouth is...it's just not available in most areas.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I agree about the extremists, but I notice how you freely changed between calling them "extreme environmentalists" and just plain old "environmentalists". You wouldn't happen to be trying to tar everyone with the same brush, would you now? ;)

I think the wackos get all the attention for the same reason I think "buying green" is a really good step forward. In order for real environmentalism to work, it needs to be something people can tolerate and something that's mainstream enough to attract enough attention from people who can make real progress. For the wackos, this is a bad thing since it turns environmentalism from living in the forest and eating only organic pine cones into a broad movement that can affect real change. And for the idiots who want to keep driving their monster SUVs, it's exactly the same problem...they want at all costs to convince the average Joe that ALL environmentalism wants to totally destroy our lifestyle. And ultimately, it's the people at both extremes that will hold us back.

Buying green is a GREAT step forward in my mind, because it marginalizes the wackos and marginalizes the SUV-first people at the same time. Talk about energy efficiency!

Right, going green can definitely help people out... and as long as we keep things market-oriented (as opposed to command dictated) and view it more as a technology centered problem and less as a politically centered problem.

It's just this OP observation of the hardcore environmentalists reminds me of their true aim... and that's something we all need to keep in mind. Once we place some sort of intrinsic good onto "nature" then the good of human beings becomes irrelevant. The reason we pollute less and waste less etc is so human life benefits.
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
0
76
Anyone with a basic grasp of Biology should realize that the "planet" surviving a major environmental catastrophe is a much more likely outcome than human society as we know it surviving said catastrophe. The whacko tree-huggers advocating drastic responses in the present day may in the end ironically prove to have been the most "pro-humanity" faction in the whole debate. :p

What is a little amusing about the latest batch of baby-steps in the U.S. is the complete lack of discussion of the very long transport and residence times of anything in the uppper atmosphere. Most of what we're likely to see in terms of impacts in our mid-range lifetimes was set in motion decades ago, and changes in ground level greenhouse emissions now are going to play out in our children's lifetimes. I think the scientific community brushes past such basics of atmospheric science because it's hard to get a corporation to make decisions that don't impact the bottom line in the current quarter, nor the average consumer to make a decision based on it's impacts beyond one year from now, nor a typical politician something that won't impact until after they are out of office, much less for any of those agents to act on something that will take decades to play its part.

I don't see the rate of "green" progress moving much faster than it is now given typical planning horizons. One of my professors in college who was the director of a major cross-discipline sustainability initiative drove a gas-guzzling SUV - you'd be surprised how many of those closest to the "battle" have accepted reality and pretty much play lip service to these palliative initiatives out of habit.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
Here in newfoundland Canada, we've been fighting the animal rights activist's (primarily green peace) for 20+ years. Every legit case they make we fix the problem, we even banned the killing of white coats/pups because they are too cute. Those b******s are still conducting surveys that ask "do you disagree with the killing of white coats" when there hasn't been one killed in over 10 years at least.

Rather then a long winded rant no one will read, this is actually a decent source of information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_hunting .


Long story short, everything that the animal right activists say is lies. What is most disturbing is that with all the facts in the sealing industries favor we are losing the PR battle and with the EU seriously considering a ban on seal imports.

Are people just too stupid to look up facts before they decide to try and destroy a livelihood?

-edit- The best way to conserve the environment is to make it profitable to do so. Such as various nations ready to twist japans arm if they dared touch the Humpback whales, which is a major tourist attraction for countries like Canada.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Rainsford

Buying green is a GREAT step forward in my mind, because it marginalizes the wackos and marginalizes the SUV-first people at the same time. Talk about energy efficiency!

So how do you feel about that new hybrid tahoe?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
I don't think that most people understand what "buying CO credits" really mean, buying something at the given price doesn't mean you'll get it back, someone else can buy it by decreasing their output.

All in all it's a fairly good system... for China.

What are you talking about...I'm not entirely sure YOU know what "buying CO credits" really means. It means you are buying a certificate to offset your carbon output, which means the person or company you are buying the credit from output LESS. It's not a perfect system, but it an excellent way to try to offset your carbon output when you can't actually reduce it yourself...getting someone else to reduce their output is the next best thing.

A far better system is to allow things like choice of green energy in the power grid if you want it. Despite it costing more money, I'm seriously considering switching to a power company that generates 100% of the electricity they sell to you from wind power. Obviously the wind isn't blowing every second, but like every other grid based system, the amount of wind power they generate for each person is equal to how much you take out, it's just that every second your power doesn't HAVE to be coming directly from wind...but it all averages out. It's a pretty cool concept, and it allows you to put your money where your mouth is...it's just not available in most areas.

Here is something to think about. That wind power is going to be generated no matter if anyone buys it or not. The federal subsidies for wind have a far greater impact on wind generation than the consumer does at this point.
 

ranmaniac

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,940
0
76
Like those Hollywood stars driving a Prius while living in a mansion that could power a small city.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: charrison
Here is something to think about. That wind power is going to be generated no matter if anyone buys it or not. The federal subsidies for wind have a far greater impact on wind generation than the consumer does at this point.
Government subsidies in this case aren't necessarily a bad thing. I think of it like using a catalyst: it decreases the amount of time/money/energy required to reach the goal. In this case, the goal is getting power from something other than fossil fuels. If the government nudges the market in that direction, long-term gains could be realized much more quickly. The key is to keep this sort of stimulus short-term, which is unlikely. It would probably take the goons in DC about three centuries to repeal any subsidies they put out there this year.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Rainsford

Buying green is a GREAT step forward in my mind, because it marginalizes the wackos and marginalizes the SUV-first people at the same time. Talk about energy efficiency!

So how do you feel about that new hybrid tahoe?

Well it's certainly better than the NOT-hybrid Tahoe. And it shows that a broad range of people are getting interested in conservation, which makes it easier to transition to things that might have a little more impact on energy use.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
I don't think that most people understand what "buying CO credits" really mean, buying something at the given price doesn't mean you'll get it back, someone else can buy it by decreasing their output.

All in all it's a fairly good system... for China.

What are you talking about...I'm not entirely sure YOU know what "buying CO credits" really means. It means you are buying a certificate to offset your carbon output, which means the person or company you are buying the credit from output LESS. It's not a perfect system, but it an excellent way to try to offset your carbon output when you can't actually reduce it yourself...getting someone else to reduce their output is the next best thing.

A far better system is to allow things like choice of green energy in the power grid if you want it. Despite it costing more money, I'm seriously considering switching to a power company that generates 100% of the electricity they sell to you from wind power. Obviously the wind isn't blowing every second, but like every other grid based system, the amount of wind power they generate for each person is equal to how much you take out, it's just that every second your power doesn't HAVE to be coming directly from wind...but it all averages out. It's a pretty cool concept, and it allows you to put your money where your mouth is...it's just not available in most areas.

Here is something to think about. That wind power is going to be generated no matter if anyone buys it or not. The federal subsidies for wind have a far greater impact on wind generation than the consumer does at this point.

In the short term that may be true, but the more people who buy wind power, the more economical it will become to generate it without federal subsidies...and eventually, the more wind power that will be generated. And the other thing to keep in mind is that you're not trying to increase wind power generation so much as you're trying to DECREASE power from sources like coal, which will happen pretty quickly when people switch. Whatever the government does with wind power, no energy company is going to keep generating the same amount of other energy if fewer people are buying it. So in the short term, at least I wouldn't be paying for coal energy, and in the long term, it will result in the growth of wind power.

As an added bonus, doing this would require switching power companies. This means one less check in the mail every month for my local energy company because they don't offer green energy, and THAT is the kind of thing that can result in changes if enough people end up doing it.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I agree about the extremists, but I notice how you freely changed between calling them "extreme environmentalists" and just plain old "environmentalists". You wouldn't happen to be trying to tar everyone with the same brush, would you now? ;)

I think the wackos get all the attention for the same reason I think "buying green" is a really good step forward. In order for real environmentalism to work, it needs to be something people can tolerate and something that's mainstream enough to attract enough attention from people who can make real progress. For the wackos, this is a bad thing since it turns environmentalism from living in the forest and eating only organic pine cones into a broad movement that can affect real change. And for the idiots who want to keep driving their monster SUVs, it's exactly the same problem...they want at all costs to convince the average Joe that ALL environmentalism wants to totally destroy our lifestyle. And ultimately, it's the people at both extremes that will hold us back.

Buying green is a GREAT step forward in my mind, because it marginalizes the wackos and marginalizes the SUV-first people at the same time. Talk about energy efficiency!

Right, going green can definitely help people out... and as long as we keep things market-oriented (as opposed to command dictated) and view it more as a technology centered problem and less as a politically centered problem.

It's just this OP observation of the hardcore environmentalists reminds me of their true aim... and that's something we all need to keep in mind. Once we place some sort of intrinsic good onto "nature" then the good of human beings becomes irrelevant. The reason we pollute less and waste less etc is so human life benefits.

The problem is that the market is good at solving problems, but it's not so good at actually identifying long term problems to solve. Not only that, but not everything is a market-oriented problem, it's hard for the market to quantify certain things that WE may care about but that a public company has no business thinking about. Free market or not, it wasn't until government regulations came about that companies stopped dumping tons of really toxic crap in rivers and pretty much every place else.

Government funding, and government regulations, can nudge the market in the right direction without overwhelming the strengths of a free market. Call it free market liberalism...the free market is great, but it's not completely perfect for every problem, and government can help fill in those gaps. This is especially true when the gaps in question deal with things that are important to the people but externalities to businesses, things like the environment. Now because of increasing energy prices, green energy WILL eventually become a free market priority on its own...but the sooner that happens, the smoother the transition will be, and speeding up the process is exactly the kind of thing the free market isn't real good at, but the government can be.

I guess my point is that it doesn't have to be 100% one way or the other, it seems like there is a perfectly reasonable middle ground.