Mac's Firmware and PC's Bios. And more... *POLL*

[n0cmonkey]

<< So why are we still using BIOS????? Why do PC motherboard manafacturers still use it?????

I have often wondered this, but never thought of asking anyone about it.

-CSFM- >>



Backwards compatibility. Plus its probably in the x86 spec. Hopefully AMD decides to "fix" this issue for x86-64

 

[jhu]

haven't read the spec for openfirmware/openboot, so would giving the pc bios a forth-type interface make it an openfirmware compatible bios?

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< haven't read the spec for openfirmware/openboot, so would giving the pc bios a forth-type interface make it an openfirmware compatible bios? >>



Doubtable, but I havent read the specs for them either.

 

[CSFM]

Backwards compatibility. Plus its probably in the x86 spec. Hopefully AMD decides to "fix" this issue for x86-64

Do you think that AMD are willing to stick their neck out to make the changes?

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< Backwards compatibility. Plus its probably in the x86 spec. Hopefully AMD decides to "fix" this issue for x86-64

Do you think that AMD are willing to stick their neck out to make the changes? >>



They stuck their neck out by not going with Intel's IA64 architecture. They stuck their neck out by creating x86-64. The only problem I can think of (and unfortunately this would be big enough to kill it in my opinion ) is the fact that x86-64 would not be compatible with the hardware out there right now. I am not positive it would be even without the change from a BIOS to Open Firmware, but I cant imagine they would "force" hardware manufacturers to support their architecture along with IA64, x86, and PPC (Adaptec supports 2 of the 3 if not all 3).

 

[CSFM]

The only problem I can think of (and unfortunately this would be big enough to kill it in my opinion ) is the fact that x86-64 would not be compatible with the hardware out there right now. I am not positive it would be even without the change from a BIOS to Open Firmware, but I cant imagine they would "force" hardware manufacturers to support their architecture along with IA64, x86, and PPC (Adaptec supports 2 of the 3 if not all 3).

Yeah, and have a look at the market share Adaptec have, obviously the more standards a hardware or software company can support the higher their market share will be, hence the more money they can make to put into researching new products. AMD are a prime example of this. They have and are continually increasing their market share with their CPU's and therefore making better products because of the increased cash flow. Simple really. So I would think that once AMD have 50% or more of the total market share in home CPU's then they stand a better chance of "forcing" hardware and software manufacturers to comply with their standards, much the same as Intel have done over the years.

And as for the strip club... sounds like a great idea!


I agree. you cant compare women to computers. women are more like network cables.

Is that because, like network cables, women only use half of their potential?

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< The only problem I can think of (and unfortunately this would be big enough to kill it in my opinion ) is the fact that x86-64 would not be compatible with the hardware out there right now. I am not positive it would be even without the change from a BIOS to Open Firmware, but I cant imagine they would "force" hardware manufacturers to support their architecture along with IA64, x86, and PPC (Adaptec supports 2 of the 3 if not all 3).

Yeah, and have a look at the market share Adaptec have, obviously the more standards a hardware or software company can support the higher their market share will be, hence the more money they can make to put into researching new products. AMD are a prime example of this. They have and are continually increasing their market share with their CPU's and therefore making better products because of the increased cash flow. Simple really. So I would think that once AMD have 50% or more of the total market share in home CPU's then they stand a better chance of "forcing" hardware and software manufacturers to comply with their standards, much the same as Intel have done over the years.

And as for the strip club... sounds like a great idea!


I agree. you cant compare women to computers. women are more like network cables.

Is that because, like network cables, women only use half of their potential? >>



Ouch

Anyhow, upon thinking about what I said, Adaptec should be able to easily support the switch *IF* AMD made it. If AMD used the standard (OpenFirmware stadard I linked earlier) it should not be that much different from the PPC based controller. Hell, they might even be able to use the *EXACT* same controller card in the totally different platform. Not positive on that one though. So they should be able to easily support it. Anyone know if IA64 is still living with the limitation of the BIOS? (Maybe this should have been a new thread )

 

[CSFM]

(Maybe this should have been a new thread)

I was thinking exactly the same thing when we just hit the second page here...

You can start it up, I am very interested in what people have to say and some more info about this subject! And I am sitting at work still, and very busy... Still have time to read and post here though! Only got 2 hours left and I am hitting the road... Very busy day, can't wait to get home, have a beer or wine and fall asleep on the couch again!

I agree. you cant compare women to computers. women are more like network cables.

Is that because, like network cables, women only use half of their potential?

LOL... I retract those comments too.... just in case I have offended anyone!

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< (Maybe this should have been a new thread)

I was thinking exactly the same thing when we just hit the second page here...

You can start it up, I am very interested in what people have to say and some more info about this subject! And I am sitting at work still, and very busy... Still have time to read and post here though! Only got 2 hours left and I am hitting the road... Very busy day, can't wait to get home, have a beer or wine and fall asleep on the couch again!

I agree. you cant compare women to computers. women are more like network cables.

Is that because, like network cables, women only use half of their potential?

LOL... I retract those comments too.... just in case I have offended anyone! >>



Ill let someone else start a thread. Not quite sure if it would go in High tech or gen hardware... And Im not even close to hitting the second page yet

 

[TBC]

MAC=Propietary=Bad

I don't know where people are getting the idea that OS X is so great. Your just going by the word of people who own MAC's, as if they would say otherwise. Fact is I love WindowsXP and think its great. Its all personal opinion.

There are more drawbacks to a MAC than just its price. I'm sure many are attracted by its new design because they think it looks cool. Looks don't make a good computer. Besides you can buy a LCD to go with your PC and have it look very nice also.

I remember a long time ago people claiming how much better the Amiga was over the PC, even though it had a very small share of the market (just like MAC). People bragged about how much better the Amiga was for multimedia etc... just like the MAC people do now. I believe the Amiga is now dead.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Maybe you should edit the title to reflect the current shift in conversation?

Anyhow, just looking on x86-64.org for information about BIOS/Firmware and found this link: code gen.

The developers there seem to be writing OpenFirmware compliant firmware thingies for various architectures. Interresting atleast. So I guess a mobo/chipset company could implement firmware with fewer problems than I thought... Actually, the BIOS seems to have very little to do with the chipset (other than just which options the chipset has available) from what I can tell, so switching out the BIOS for OpenFirmware on server mobo's would only require new hardware by hardware manufacturers. The hardware would probably be more expensive, but since some companies develop PPC/Sparc hardware already (both have similar/compatible systems as OpenFirmware) the price shouldnt be too much higher.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< MAC=Propietary=Bad >>



Its Mac, not MAC. MAC is something that deals with networks. And since the PPC platform uses OpenFirmware it is not totally proprietary. Also, IBM uses PPC processors, I believe, as does Cisco. There are also a good number of OSes that are fairly compatible with the hardware. I wont even go into how the PPC platform seems to be using the open standards out there already, or how people complain about proprietary hardware and use proprietary software... So I dont think its as bad as people seem to think it is.



<< I don't know where people are getting the idea that OS X is so great. Your just going by the word of people who own MAC's, as if they would say otherwise. >>



I think I mentioned why I believe its great. I use it almost daily. I like it. It has the application support I need. Get over it.



<< Fact is I love WindowsXP and think its great. Its all personal opinion. >>



I will agree with the opinion part. I dont think a Mac fan here has said that PCs suck. So why do you have to bring your legacy supporting zealotry here?



<< There are more drawbacks to a MAC than just its price. >>



Like? Facts please. And try to leave the hypocracy out of the next post



<< I'm sure many are attracted by its new design because they think it looks cool. Looks don't make a good computer. Besides you can buy a LCD to go with your PC and have it look very nice also. >>



I have seen NO un-moded PCs that look as good as a Mac.



<< I remember a long time ago people claiming how much better the Amiga was over the PC, even though it had a very small share of the market (just like MAC). People bragged about how much better the Amiga was for multimedia etc... just like the MAC people do now. I believe the Amiga is now dead. >>



Nope. Amiga-DE or something is still out there somewhere. Plenty of people still use Amiga hardware too.

EDIT: Oh, and I guess you didnt bother to read the entire thread

EDIT2: Amiga link #1
Amiga link #2
Amiga link #3

Yes, they are all slashdot.org links. They may be biased but the news they mention here is all linked on more "respectable" sites.

EDIT3: Its easier this way Anyhow, I just love it when someone flames in a thread, or starts a flaimbait thread, or asks a question they should know is answered in the FAQs and either does not subscriber or logs off immediately or both

 

[CSFM]

I will change the name of the thread now...

I'm sure many are attracted by its new design because they think it looks cool.

I stated this earlier in the thread that some people by MAC's as a status symbol... Not true in all cases and you would be wrong to generalise.


MAC's or Mac's... LOL Sorry about that.... Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's!

I hope that makes you feel better!

-CSFM-

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< I will change the name of the thread now... >>



Cool, no outrageous changes would be needed, it would just make it so we wouldnt have to start another thread and lose the comments here. Plus I dont visit all the forums as Im sure others here dont and they may not see the new thread even if they are interrested in it.



<< I'm sure many are attracted by its new design because they think it looks cool.

I stated this earlier in the thread that some people by MAC's as a status symbol... Not true in all cases and you would be wrong to generalise. >>



37 posts and only 1 flame... Not too shabby.

 

[CSFM]

37 posts and only 1 flame... Not too shabby


I think because my first post asked for no flaming.

Anyone got anything further to add to this thread. Please have a read and include your thoughts and knowledge if any... enlighten us all!

-CSFM-

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< I will change the name of the thread now... I'm sure many are attracted by its new design because they think it looks cool.I stated this earlier in the thread that some people by MAC's as a status symbol... Not true in all cases and you would be wrong to generalise. MAC's or Mac's... LOL Sorry about that.... Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's, Mac's!I hope that makes you feel better! -CSFM- >>



Little bit. I didnt say it too much for you since you didnt go flaming anyone for their choice in a computer. But since the other poster was going to start talking crap I figured I should follow up in kind

 

[CSFM]

I wouldn't go saying bad things about someone else's computer... Unless of course, like in that guys case, he did start getting a bit sillly... LOL

Yeah, nice to see a thread with no crap in it...LOL. Other than the crap I am writing now!

I would love to have a good Mac. Unfortunatly the funds are called for in different places at the moment, but I am looking into getting a good lap top. The Mac's are looking good at the moment... although a friend of mine bought a Dell laptop last year and I was very impressed with the overall package and price. So it is still a bit of a toss up between the two for me.

 

[jhu]

why would a hardware manufacturer have to make new hardware if the rom changes from pc-type to openfirmware? can't you just write an extension in openfirmware for hooks that the hardware needs?

 

[Nothinman]

why would a hardware manufacturer have to make new hardware if the rom changes from pc-type to openfirmware? can't you just write an extension in openfirmware for hooks that the hardware needs?

That's the thing, OpenFirmware, SRM, etc all work so well because they have a limited, known set of hardware to support. The PC BIOS is very limited because it's impossible to support any hardware that could be plugged in, not all of it needs to be, really mainly just VGA and storage devices, but there's a lot of different SCSI cards and IDE controllers. And NICs for netbooting is cool.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< why would a hardware manufacturer have to make new hardware if the rom changes from pc-type to openfirmware? can't you just write an extension in openfirmware for hooks that the hardware needs? >>



It may be possible to make it backwards compatible, but that hardware wouldnt be the best choice for what you were using.

 

[jhu]

alpha's did the same thing. i think most graphics adaptors require some initialization using x86 code. the alpha rom had some x86 translation routines to use setup such devices. aren't you able to write openfirmware compatible drivers and have it save it into rom?

 

[syadnom]

I like both.

I like open standards which are the PC, less expensive parts and the ability to customize anything. Also easier to modify/hack parts and overclock. The pc is much more fun to build. The OS on the other hand needs some help. With the standard OS being Windows, their is definitely a lacking here, Linux has its advantages but some disadvantages as well, like a descent web browser.

I like the Mac because of the solidity of the platform. Each Mac is similar, they have compatible hardware accross the board, and they require no tweaking to be right. I wish there was an open Mac platform but that would affect the stability of the OS, OS X is a nice, solid, stable OS with a lot of things to envy, and not many to dislike. It has MSIE, which is the most web compatible browser(unfortunately), it is also quite nice to use and look at, everything is easy and elegant. OS X also has BSD underneath, which gives it a nice, strong networking stack, and memorymanagement. Pure staiblity. Something that closed hardware models excell at.

i dont like how Macs are expensive, i would love a dual 1ghz g4 tower, but $4000 can be spent on a couple very powerful PCs.

 

[CSFM]

i dont like how Macs are expensive, i would love a dual 1ghz g4 tower, but $4000 can be spent on a couple very powerful PCs.

Wouldn't we all! And that was one of the points in my origional post, you can get something twice as good for the same amount of cash. But I would never say that Mac's are redundant or useless. I think they have their place.