mac gurus.... need your knowledge

[bizmark]

there's gotta be somebody out there who can help me with this.

In general, are non-Apple SCSI HDD's compatible with SCSI Macs (ie pre-B&W G3 Macs)?

My situation: I've got a PowerMac 8500 and a (non-Apple) Conner 1GB SCSI HDD sitting around. The PowerMac could really use a bit more HD space and I have no other use for a SCSI HDD. So I tried plugging it into the Mac, but the drive wouldn't initialize. I could boot it up from another disk, but when I tried to initialize the HD, it said that it couldn't recognize the drive. It could clearly recognize that it was THERE, but it couldn't make it work. Is there a driver that I can download somewhere, or is it a lost cause trying to use a HDD without the Apple firmware?

Thanks for any suggestions, advice, whatever...

 

[MadRat]

I thought you could format a new HD on a Mac from the system utilities folder.

 

[bizmark]

<< I thought you could format a new HD on a Mac from the system utilities folder. >>



I tried that, but it gave an error. I think I actually tried two different programs to try to format it. (One in the system folder and another with the MacOS installation CD... probably essentially the same thing, I know, but I tried it anyway).

Sorry I don't remember what the error was, this was a while ago when I plugged it in (it was a hassle since I didn't want to break the SCSI terminator off the HDD and the motherboard and case are designed such that it's pretty hard to utilize the 2nd SCSI controller with a HDD and I only had a short SCSI cable, so I had the mobo hanging out of the case at a funny angle while the HDD hung from the controller). Anyway, I did everything that I could think of, including starting from a MacOS CD (no other HDD) and initializing the disk from Disk First Aid or whatever it is. I'm pretty sure the error said something about a driver for the HD or that it wasn't supported.

If it comes down to it, I'll try again, but I wondered if anyone could help me by telling me if this would work in general before I spent too much energy trying to get the thing working.

 

[Workin']

I put a "PC" Seagate 1GB SCSI drive in a Performa 6115 (which is older than your 8500) with not much trouble. Make sure you have your SCSI ID and termination set properly on ALL the SCSI devices. The hardest part was figuring out how to physically mount the stupid thing inside the case.

It *is* possible that your drive just isn't supported by the default Apple drivers. I didn't see you mention which Mac OS version you are using. There are 3rd-party drivers available, but they cost money. FWB's Hard Drive Toolkit is one.

 

[bizmark]

Thanks Workin', I'm glad to see that it is at least possible. Maybe it was a problem with termination and SCSI ID (I'm newbie when it comes to SCSI), but I thought that I had worked that out by putting it on the second bus with a one-device cable. (on separate busses, do the SCSI ID's still conflict?)

I've got both OS 8.6 and OS 9.1 on a couple of different hard drives (one of which I've actually borrowed from a friend in the hopes of initializing this other HD). That link looks like it's exactly what I need, too bad it's $130

Thanks for the help.

 

[Workin']

As far as I know (and according to Apple's web site) the 8500 has only one SCSI channel. Are you sure there are 2 in your machine??? The connector where the existing hard drive is connected and the one where the CD connects are on the same channel, I believe. At least they are on mine.

So make sure the SCSI ID's are all set to different numbers, and try setting termination both ways.

Is the conner drive really ancient? If it's a "regular" size drive, i.e., 1/3 height (same as current IDE drives for PC's), it *should* work.

 

[WorkingDude]

The 8500 series has two SCSI buses, an internal and external. Using Drive Setup, you can see two buses listed, 0 is the internal, 1 the external. These are separate buses. The external is separate from the internal.

With the version of Drive Setup that shipped with 8.6 you should be able to format most third party drives. However it is possible that an older drive might not be supported. The current version of Drive Setup even supports third party IDE cards and drives. I am currently using a 60GXP in a 8500 where I work with a Sonnet IDE card. If you have an IDE drive laying around IDE cards that are Mac compatible can be found for $50-80.

You might try going to Apple's site and downloading the latest version for Drive Setup (1.7.3 I think) if you haven't already. Of course, be sure to double check SCSI IDs and termination.

You might also want to check out www.xlr8yourmac.com or www.macfixit.com for other possible workarounds.

 

[Woody419]

Low End Mac is a great resource and a starting place to research old Macs. I found out how to put in a second IDE hdd in a Beige G3/266.

 

[bizmark]

Thanks guys for all your help. I'm looking at the motherboard right now and it does in fact have 2 seemingly identical internal SCSI connectors, one labelled "STD SCSI / SCSI - 1" and the other "FAST SCSI / SCSI - 0". Am I insane, or are these two separate busses?

Thanks again for all your help. I probably won't have the time to really mess with this until this weekend, but I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[Eug]

How again do you install RAM in this thing? I friend the drive somehow (static?) when trying to figure out this damn case, so it's kinda moot, but if I ever find a new 10 GB SCSI drive somewhere maybe I'll update the ram too. Can I stick in a 128 MB DIMM? 8500/150, sitting gathering dust.

 

[bizmark]

<< How again do you install RAM in this thing? I friend the drive somehow (static?) when trying to figure out this damn case, so it's kinda moot, but if I ever find a new 10 GB SCSI drive somewhere maybe I'll update the ram too. Can I stick in a 128 MB DIMM? 8500/150, sitting gathering dust. >>



yeah, those cases are a biatch.

First unplug any external peripherals ie. keyboard mouse SCSI devices etc. Take off the back screws, slide off the front/sides/top. Now pull the CPU out of its slot (you access it from the left side of the machine, the side opposite the motherboard). Take out any other cards in the peripheral slots. Unplug the audio/video connector that's right next to the CPU slot. Then carefully squeeze the power button thing to get it to slide out, but be really careful because they break easily. Then unplug everything that's plugged in the top of the motherboard (should be FDD, two power cables, CD audio cable, SCSI, and speaker wire). Then, unscrew the center screw from the motherboard and slide the whole motherboard to the left. Push up the little tab at the top right of the motherboard and pull the motherboard towards you. The motherboard should now be completely removed from the machine.

The bottom line: You can't install RAM without taking the whole damn thing apart! Quite frustrating.

Oh and 128MB DIMMs are supposed to work but they were never tested by Apple for compatability, or something like that. And these Power Macs don't accept regular DIMMs, either; they accept 5V, non-registered, non-ECC, FPM or EDO 168pin DIMMs. Possibly the most obscure modules in the history of user-installable system RAM. Bleah. I'm ready to chunk this thing out the window just thinking about the difficulties I've had in working on it.

 

[Workin']

Yeah, those 5V DIMMs are sucky. And the way all those old Macs are assembled is hilarious, as long as you don't have to work on one.

So it seems the 8500 has 2 SCSI channels. That's kind of cool. In a way...

I have a few old Macs, 2 are Performa 611x's and one is a PowerBook Duo 280c. The Performas are 60MHz PPC601's, but one of them has a Sonnet G3 card and runs at 240MHz (and has 132MB of RAM), and the other has 1MB of cache and 72MB of RAM. At least they use regular SIMMs. Too bad they are NuBus, that means no OS X or PPCLinux for them. The one with the cache still is really useable, much faster than you would think for 60MHz. The one with the G3 feels about the same as a 266MHz iMac and is painless to use. The Duo is nice and small, but it's only a 68040.

Hope you get your drive working.

 

[Eug]

<<

<< How again do you install RAM in this thing? I friend the drive somehow (static?) when trying to figure out this damn case, so it's kinda moot, but if I ever find a new 10 GB SCSI drive somewhere maybe I'll update the ram too. Can I stick in a 128 MB DIMM? 8500/150, sitting gathering dust. >>



yeah, those cases are a biatch.

First unplug any external peripherals ie. keyboard mouse SCSI devices etc. Take off the back screws, slide off the front/sides/top. Now pull the CPU out of its slot (you access it from the left side of the machine, the side opposite the motherboard). Take out any other cards in the peripheral slots. Unplug the audio/video connector that's right next to the CPU slot. Then carefully squeeze the power button thing to get it to slide out, but be really careful because they break easily. Then unplug everything that's plugged in the top of the motherboard (should be FDD, two power cables, CD audio cable, SCSI, and speaker wire). Then, unscrew the center screw from the motherboard and slide the whole motherboard to the left. Push up the little tab at the top right of the motherboard and pull the motherboard towards you. The motherboard should now be completely removed from the machine.

The bottom line: You can't install RAM without taking the whole damn thing apart! Quite frustrating.

Oh and 128MB DIMMs are supposed to work but they were never tested by Apple for compatability, or something like that. And these Power Macs don't accept regular DIMMs, either; they accept 5V, non-registered, non-ECC, FPM or EDO 168pin DIMMs. Possibly the most obscure modules in the history of user-installable system RAM. Bleah. I'm ready to chunk this thing out the window just thinking about the difficulties I've had in working on it. >>


Hmmm... Thanks. it seems that Crucial charges $90 for a single 64 MB stick of this RAM. Oh well, with minimal RAM and no usable hard drive, it's junk then. I hope I can figure out how to use the monitor though, since it's a nice 20" Apple display. I'll keep your post on record just in case though.

The current PowerMacs are very nicely designed. WTF were they thinking when they designed the 8500???

 

[bizmark]

Well after a few hours of screwing with it, I think that the drive is simply dead for some reason. It spins up and I can hear the read/write heads moving around, and I've tried it terminated at the end of the bus with just the CD-ROM attached, and non-terminated in the middle of the bus with other HDD's attached, and with about 5 different SCSI ID's, and under OS 7.5, 8.6 and 9.1 I can't get the Drive Setup to even see that it's there.



<< I have a few old Macs, 2 are Performa 611x's and one is a PowerBook Duo 280c. The Performas are 60MHz PPC601's, but one of them has a Sonnet G3 card and runs at 240MHz (and has 132MB of RAM), and the other has 1MB of cache and 72MB of RAM. At least they use regular SIMMs. Too bad they are NuBus, that means no OS X or PPCLinux for them. The one with the cache still is really useable, much faster than you would think for 60MHz. The one with the G3 feels about the same as a 266MHz iMac and is painless to use. The Duo is nice and small, but it's only a 68040. >>



*Sigh* I wish I had a Sonnet G3 card... there's a guy on campus who's selling his 300MHz 8600 and I'm really tempted *drool*. One of my roommates is actually getting an old Duo and DuoDock from his work. It's pretty cool. From stuff that people have been throwing away on campus, between my roommate and myself we've got: 2 8500/120's, 1 8100/80, 2 7100's, one Quadra 650, one Centris 650, and several Mac II's of various models. Also one Multiple Scan 17, two Multiple Scan 1705's, and two Multiple Scan 15 monitors, all of which are easily used by PC's with the simple pin adapter. All of this for FREE! (although I've spent about $60 fixing/upgrading...)



<< Hmmm... Thanks. it seems that Crucial charges $90 for a single 64 MB stick of this RAM. Oh well, with minimal RAM and no usable hard drive, it's junk then. >>



If you look at RamSeeker you can find the best deals on Mac RAM. I happened to buy the last 4 32MB sticks of this RAM from teamexcess.com for $6 apiece heheh I was pretty happy. It looks like the lowest price on 32MB sticks now is $13.99 apiece from 1-800-4-memory (aka Coast to Coast Memory). I've ordered from them before and I was happy with their service.

Oh and if you'd care to get rid of the motherboard and processor in your 8500, PM me. I could use an upgrade (the 150 motherboard runs at 50MHz (fastest in the 8500 family) and the 150 is an upgrade over my 120. I've got PayPal.



<< I hope I can figure out how to use the monitor though, since it's a nice 20" Apple display. I'll keep your post on record just in case though. >>



Your monitor ought to be really simple to hook up to a PC. I found a place that sells the adapters you need here. It's $18 though :Q Lucky we got ours for free. If you're into wiring your own adapters, it ought to be pretty easy. Just make sure that you have a Multiple Scan monitor. It should say something to that effect on the back of it.

Actually if you'd like to swap the motherboard/processor for an adapter (we've got a few extra), I think that'd be about an even trade excluding your shipping. Again, PM me and we can work something out if you're interested.



<< The current PowerMacs are very nicely designed. WTF were they thinking when they designed the 8500??? >>



Pretty much since the 8600/9600, Macs have had pretty accessible internals. It seems they learned their lesson from what was originally the Quadra 800 case (the 8500 case). Although other old Macs are a huge pain in the ass to work with too. You always have to remove a power supply or a hard drive (or both!) to get at the RAM. (A great site for this stuff is apple-history.com.) Although I must say, that I think that this case is one of the cooler-looking OEM computer cases that I've seen in my life. It's somewhat understated with its streamlining.

Well thanks again everybody for your help. Too bad I don't have a PC with SCSI to test this HDD one last time before I chunk it.

 

[Workin']

<< All of this for FREE! >>

Hehe, my stuff was all free too. It seems a lot of people are ditching perfectly good Mac machines to switch to Wintel. Then they don't know what to do with the old stuff, so they just toss it out. Or in my case, they know I like computers, so when they want to get rid of something they call me first.

 

[sparks]

If I remember correctly, disk setup did not work with non Apple labeled SCSI HDs (seems Apple put some proprietary stuff in the HD BIOS). You need a third party utility like Hard Disk Tool Kit to format a standard SCSI HD.

 

[Workin']

<< If I remember correctly, disk setup did not work with non Apple labeled SCSI HDs (seems Apple put some proprietary stuff in the HD BIOS). You need a third party utility like Hard Disk Tool Kit to format a standard SCSI HD. >>

It worked fine on my Seagate non-Apple SCSI drive. Apple's drive setup works with *the majority* of more recent standard drives.