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M3>GT-R>911 Turbo
- Thread starter Dman877
- Start date
PlasmaBomb
Lifer
Linky?
Arkaign
Lifer
Car and Driver has been incredibly dopey lately. I've got a great example I'll post later.
Their problem is they let too many subjectives cloud their decisions, which makes reading any kind of comparison nearly pointless, because they show how one car dominates the numbers, but then turn around and say the other car wins because they like the stitching on the headrest or some such garbage.
MT/RT>C&D.
Their problem is they let too many subjectives cloud their decisions, which makes reading any kind of comparison nearly pointless, because they show how one car dominates the numbers, but then turn around and say the other car wins because they like the stitching on the headrest or some such garbage.
MT/RT>C&D.
sniperruff
Lifer
just watched this month's best motoring. the 135i comes pretty darn close to the new m3, and thats not a very good sign.
Its hard to explain and even harder to write an article about, though I think they did a fair job with this article.
Let me clarify a bit further. The GT-R is without a doubt the superior car. But the M3 will always be the first choice for an enthusiast to own. Perhaps its an unfortunate byproduct of testing "too many cars" as they often say. There are certain intangibles in the BMW (3 series) driving experience which transcends purely quantitative comparisons. And unfortunately, these intangibles are difficult to put into text form. (Think of describing a classical French painting to the general public....fat, naked women sitting in chair. Why is that worth millions of dollars?)
I suppose then, its best to put it this way. C&D is not a consumer reports magazine. It makes no revenue from BMW for selling their cars. The editors tell you which car they like. Not which car you must buy. For the fans of the GT-R, why does it matter how C&D rates it? The article is not slanderous, and Nissan would have no basis in a lawsuit. Why then, is there such a controversy?
Is there any more bogus "let us pick the winner regardless of what any of our tests determine" category than that in any publication?
I still remember the GTO/Mustang comparison they did a few years back. 5 categories: vehicle, powertrain, chassis, "gotta-have-it," fun to drive. The two tie for vehicle, GTO wins powertrain, chassis, and fun to drive, yet loses overall by 1 point. How? "Gotta-have-it": Mustang 25; GTO 18. Complete BS. I really loved this quote where they basically all but admit they fixed the results:
"The Goat fought hard and kicked even harder, and there were moments when we thought the GTO would prevail and we'd be left to explain how our 10Best muscle car came in second to the only other valid competitor. We'd have to reveal that Pontiac couldn't deliver a 2005 GTO in time (wink,wink) for our 10Best testing, which put it out of contention."
Translation: when the comparison was done and we tabulated the results, we realized we screwed up the 10Best choice, but to avoid having egg on our face, we were glad there was a completely arbitrary "Gotta-have-it" category that allowed us to cover our tracks.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
Sorry, no. This enthusiast's sportscars are Swabian. As long as there are cars available from the company in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen, the M3 will never be a "first choice" in my mind.
I've driven M3's, and I've driven 911 variants. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. The M3 is well-behaved to be sure, but it lacks an edge. The 911 is demanding. It is a pain in the ass to drive fast and the warnings about severe trailing-throttle oversteer are not idle threats. Sometimes we like the "child" more if it has a few problems and the 911 is a perfect example of such a case.
ZV
I actually agree with the C/D review
Choice is something we all have, and preference is something that is developed by personality and need.
here's a list of what I've owned: A BMW 528i, BMW 318i, Hartge H3 (tuner car that started life as a six cylinder 323i), BMW M5, BMW M3, a a '65 Pontiac GTO, Plymouth Neon ACR , a Chevy G20 van, Ford Escort turbo, 1970 Pontiac boneville, 1969 VW beetle 1300s, 1980 Chevy Caprice and my latest...a Volvo S40 (T5).
What were my favorites? My M5 and the Neon. Why? The M5 could haul ass to the tune of 170 something MPH AND get groceries and seat five. It was a mature car that could snarl when needed but preferred to act as an adult. The Neon IS a Go-Kart and has no power doors, no power windows, no power steering or power brakes, no trip computer or sunroof. It has no stereo that can be heard over road and motor noise, and parts are CHEAP. All this and just shy of 40 MPG. What's not to love?
What they have is CHARACTER. Both appealed to me because they were what they were and made no pretense to be something else. They were just what they were with no apologies.
As far as the M3 versus Posrche versus Nissan...can someone profile me a GT-R owner? I see rich techo savy, young Japanese guys as the primary buyers and kids to young to afford one. My wife likes the Nissan...I don't.
Choice is something we all have, and preference is something that is developed by personality and need.
here's a list of what I've owned: A BMW 528i, BMW 318i, Hartge H3 (tuner car that started life as a six cylinder 323i), BMW M5, BMW M3, a a '65 Pontiac GTO, Plymouth Neon ACR , a Chevy G20 van, Ford Escort turbo, 1970 Pontiac boneville, 1969 VW beetle 1300s, 1980 Chevy Caprice and my latest...a Volvo S40 (T5).
What were my favorites? My M5 and the Neon. Why? The M5 could haul ass to the tune of 170 something MPH AND get groceries and seat five. It was a mature car that could snarl when needed but preferred to act as an adult. The Neon IS a Go-Kart and has no power doors, no power windows, no power steering or power brakes, no trip computer or sunroof. It has no stereo that can be heard over road and motor noise, and parts are CHEAP. All this and just shy of 40 MPG. What's not to love?
What they have is CHARACTER. Both appealed to me because they were what they were and made no pretense to be something else. They were just what they were with no apologies.
As far as the M3 versus Posrche versus Nissan...can someone profile me a GT-R owner? I see rich techo savy, young Japanese guys as the primary buyers and kids to young to afford one. My wife likes the Nissan...I don't.
Arkaign
Lifer
No one is denying that the M3 and 911 Turbo aren't spectacular vehicles, and both the 3 series and the 911 are iconic in automotive performance history.
What is goofy beyond description is that a car so dominant in performance doesn't win a comparison that's supposedly based upon performance. Oh well, it guarantees that people will talk about the article, and perhaps even pick up a copy.
Maybe they were uninspired by the lack of 'connection' one might get in a vehicle so collected and computer stabilized/managed. IDK. The M3, and particularly the 911T, require a bit more interaction from the driver to achieve the most out of them, rather than the point and shoot ease of guiding the GT-R to epic times.
I admit, after reading about the launch control on the GT-R in Edmunds, and how you could repeatedly do 0-60 runs in ~3.3 or so, each and every time, impressed me but also sort of depressed me. It's like driver skill is becoming obsolete, to soon be replaced by computer control. It's already evident in the ultra-high end (Veyron), and now in the sub-$100k realm (GT-R), and probably sooner than we think, sub-$20k cars with computer-controlled automatics will outperform the same car with the manual transmission option. When it gets to that point, we'll know an era has passed. Sad but inevitable, and with a shining promise of even greater performance than we've seen before.
What is goofy beyond description is that a car so dominant in performance doesn't win a comparison that's supposedly based upon performance. Oh well, it guarantees that people will talk about the article, and perhaps even pick up a copy.
Maybe they were uninspired by the lack of 'connection' one might get in a vehicle so collected and computer stabilized/managed. IDK. The M3, and particularly the 911T, require a bit more interaction from the driver to achieve the most out of them, rather than the point and shoot ease of guiding the GT-R to epic times.
I admit, after reading about the launch control on the GT-R in Edmunds, and how you could repeatedly do 0-60 runs in ~3.3 or so, each and every time, impressed me but also sort of depressed me. It's like driver skill is becoming obsolete, to soon be replaced by computer control. It's already evident in the ultra-high end (Veyron), and now in the sub-$100k realm (GT-R), and probably sooner than we think, sub-$20k cars with computer-controlled automatics will outperform the same car with the manual transmission option. When it gets to that point, we'll know an era has passed. Sad but inevitable, and with a shining promise of even greater performance than we've seen before.
sniperruff
Lifer
unfortunately, i think none of the 3 cars have much of a character. an E30 M3 or a 2002 beats any modern M cars in terms of character. i define "character" as something inherent in a car that is made to be stylish and fast. 190E evolution comes to mind. perhaps an early 90's NSX... maybe an earlier viper SRT-10.
DivideBYZero
Lifer
I'm not even going to read it. All these comparo's are getting beyond stupid. Those cars are ALL performance legends. Like a previous person posted, it's like choosing between supermodels. They're all hot as hell but in different ways.
If I was pushed to choose, however, I'd take the 911.
<---M3 owner.
If I was pushed to choose, however, I'd take the 911.
<---M3 owner.
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