Question Low to Moderate Low AM4 Observatory Build (PC)

[MalVeauX]

Hey all,

My laptop gave up the ghost after I dripped fluids into its keyboard and things started to not work anymore, USB port here, keys there, etc. So time to replace it. This time with a desktop, so I can service it in the future instead of total overhaul like this when it happens again.

This PC lives in my observatory. It's duties are to run Windows (7) and it will power software that operates my observatory mount, planetarium software, video capture software and data capture software. None of it is particularly heavy stuff. The video capture is the heaviest stuff, and it will max out what's possible on USB3 bandwidth with my CMOS USB3 cameras. The rest is easy to run on virtually any hardware. I need fast USB bus though. It will be writing its RAW data feed to a 1TB SSD (Samsung). I was going to build around the latest AM4 3000 series APU's, but the Athlon went up in price a lot and/or is backordered. Either way, a newer motherboard is needed and RAM serves as the video buffer, so I'm happy to put 16Gb of DDR4 into it. That's just to help provide context. I already have the other things that will be needed (case, PSU, etc). So the goal is maybe an APU, 4c/8t class CPU with 16GB RAM for the above purposes.

I'm not sure what will work, as I'm familiar with the latest AMD stuff, but not the yesteryear stuff.

My goal is around $300 USD to rebuild the main parts of this (motherboard, CPU/APU, RAM).

Here's what I'm currently looking at, but I'm open to suggestions and pointers as long as we can stay in a similar price range.

AMD Ryzen 5 3400G (4C/8T APU) - $140
MSI ProSeries B450M PRO-M2 Max (B450MPM2MAX) - $75
TeamGroup T-Force Vulcan Z DDR4 16Gb (8x2) 3200Mhz CL16 Memory - $58

That's $273 currently. Will use stock cooler.

Any ideas to have any significant improvements for similar cost? Especially considering the above motherboard & memory? Up to the $300 USD mark roughly?

Thanks!

Very best,

 

[VirtualLarry]

This PC lives in my observatory. It's duties are to run Windows (7)

AMD Ryzen 5 3400G (4C/8T APU)

AMD's AM4 Zen-based APUs will not run Windows 7 (not without obscure hacks, and by those, I'm NOT just talking about a USB Win7 installer w/integrated USB3.0 drivers).

 

[Shmee]

AMD's AM4 Zen-based APUs will not run Windows 7 (not without obscure hacks, and by those, I'm NOT just talking about a USB Win7 installer w/integrated USB3.0 drivers).

This was my understanding as well, though I was not sure. Good catch anyway. OP, could windows 10 be an option for this build?

 

[MalVeauX]

AMD's AM4 Zen-based APUs will not run Windows 7 (not without obscure hacks, and by those, I'm NOT just talking about a USB Win7 installer w/integrated USB3.0 drivers).

This was my understanding as well, though I was not sure. Good catch anyway. OP, could windows 10 be an option for this build?

Oh man, well, that throws a wrench in there. That's annoying.

Win10 is of course an option, the software will work in Win10. But annoying that I have to buy a new OS when my current OS works fine just to use this hardware.

I suppose I could attempt the Win10 upgrade if it still works, was working earlier this year, was free. If it still works I could attempt that. It's just annoying to do a total reinstall after getting everything just how I want it for my work in the observatory. Bleh.

That said, I will now have to see what Intel an offer at the same price point and if it is comparable to be able to keep using my current OS and software install and just change out the hardware (done this a few times, keeps on going). But if there's nothing really going to work as well for $300 USD as a comparison machine, I'll just be forced to finally go Win10. Sigh.

Any ideas on an Intel build to match?

Very best,

 

[VirtualLarry]

Officially, these are the last platforms that support Windows 7 64-bit:
1) AM4 Bristol Ridge (modern BIOS versions for AM4 boards dropped support for this APU, which is basically a re-badged Carizzo for AM4).
2) AM3+ FX-series, such as the FX-8350, etc.
3) Intel Haswell
4) Intel Skylake (on Z170)

Unofficially, you can get these to work, with patches / hacked Windows update / going without Windows Update:
5) AM4 Zen1 CPUs (need separate GPU)
6) Intel Kaby Lake

Anything newer, basically doesn't work at all with Windows 7 64-bit, or if it does, the USB3.0 ports don't work, even with drivers (Z390, I'm looking at you).

 

[MalVeauX]

That solves that; my primary need is USB3 and the fastest bus for it to work on, so I guess I'm going to be upgrading to Win10. Will try to the free upgrade and if that doesn't fly, I'll just have to buy it.

Thanks!

Very best,

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Win10 is of course an option, the software will work in Win10. But annoying that I have to buy a new OS when my current OS works fine just to use this hardware.

If you have the 7 key handy, 10 will still accept it as valid. It'll activate automatically. You just need to have a transferable licence (i.e. retail) key.

Still you don't need a licence as such to use 10. But you will not be able to customise anything.

 

[MalVeauX]

If you have the 7 key handy, 10 will still accept it as valid. It'll activate automatically. You just need to have a transferable licence (i.e. retail) key.

Still you don't need a licence as such to use 10. But you will not be able to customise anything.

I'm getting the Download Tool now from M.S. to make a USB installer for Win10 to see what my options are, I have several retail keys for Win7. I've been able to re-validate my Observatory PC a few times as hardware has been swapped over the years (from desktop to laptop back to desktop) and it has been fine. Not sure how it will work this time around; ie, if I upgrade the desktop (current) to Win10 using its Win7 key, then swap the hardware again to a new system completely (the proposed AM4 build above) and then it either validate or not. I suppose if it doesn't I can just buy a new Win10 key, they're not too expensive. Just annoying.

Very best,

 

[MalVeauX]

Hrm,

New thoughts.... I was just looking at the Ryzen 3400G APU again, I don't need the graphics portion at all. I have an nVidia GPU in there anyways and nothing I'm doing on that machine involves the GPU except the display itself, so it's a minimal GPU just for the purpose of outputting to a monitor. For the same price, the Ryzen 2600 is a better CPU and lacks the graphics stuff.

Does that change anything with respect to Win7 vs Win10?

Getting an even better CPU (2600) and keeping Win7 would be a double-win.

If that's possible (without hacks or work arounds, don't care for any of that).

Very best,

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Not sure how it will work this time around; ie, if I upgrade the desktop (current) to Win10 using its Win7 key, then swap the hardware again to a new system completely (the proposed AM4 build above) and then it either validate or not. I suppose if it doesn't I can just buy a new Win10 key, they're not too expensive. Just annoying.

Worst thing that can happen is having to call MS support, and enter an activation code manually. It's no big deal. They're usually pretty large when you explain the situation.

Best of luck with your build.

 

[MalVeauX]

So, if I move to Win10 (free or paid, doesn't matter at this point, going to have to do it; I could run Linux but I really don't want to make it even harder to get all my software to work again out there); here's a new build potential for the job after above discussion:

Gigabyte B450 DS3H motherboard ($72)
Ryzen 5 2600 CPU (6c/12t) ($140)
Teamgroup T-Force Vulcan Z DDR4 16Gb (8x2) ($58)
optional: WD 500Gb Blue SN550 NVMe M.2 SSD ($60)

Basic build is $270 USD. For $60 I get a 500Gb NVMe M2 SSD to do the install and software from. My current Samsung 1TB SSD will be where my raw data dumps to from my cameras during acquisition. The extra drive is not needed at all. But I may do it so that I have more flexibility in the future if I need to swap the SSD for any reason without affecting the boot drive and OS/software installs.

Very best,

 

[mikeymikec]

The stock cooler for the 3400G is a noisy beggar when the CPU gets busy. Is that an issue?

 

[MalVeauX]

The stock cooler for the 3400G is a noisy beggar when the CPU gets busy. Is that an issue?

Nope, noise won't matter at all, its in an observatory (think like a garage, but the roof opens to the sky).

Very best,

 

[sdifox]

Are all the software windows only? The workload sounds light enough for a rpi4 8gb.

Or just get this

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[MalVeauX]

Are all the software windows only? The workload sounds light enough for a rpi4 8gb.

Heya,

A lot of the software is Windows and Linux. I could just run Linux honestly. But the last thing I want to do is troubleshoot software while using the observatory anyways.

That said, the software is light weight for use. The heavy weight is the CMOS cameras I run, which are 20MP sensors, USB3 connection, dumping raw video stream to an SSD. So the bus needs to be able to handle the volume and not be a bottleneck while running software, and it uses RAM as a buffer to avoid dropped/loss of frames during this process (usually 20 FPS at 20MP, so it makes 40Gb in a hot second, each go). I've used lesser hardware for this and while the software runs, the cameras are simply demanding on the bus.

Very best,

 

[sdifox]

Heya,

A lot of the software is Windows and Linux. I could just run Linux honestly. But the last thing I want to do is troubleshoot software while using the observatory anyways.

That said, the software is light weight for use. The heavy weight is the CMOS cameras I run, which are 20MP sensors, USB3 connection, dumping raw video stream to an SSD. So the bus needs to be able to handle the volume and not be a bottleneck while running software, and it uses RAM as a buffer to avoid dropped/loss of frames during this process (usually 20 FPS at 20MP, so it makes 40Gb in a hot second, each go). I've used lesser hardware for this and while the software runs, the cameras are simply demanding on the bus.

Very best,

so just get the machine I linked. You are not really saving money building low spec machines.
It is possible to setup ramdisk in rpi4, and it does come with USB 3.0 now, so you are probably ok with RPI4 8GB in your use case, but yeah a desktop would be easier.

don't think you'll need the ramdisk with a ryzen and PCIE4.0 NVME though. this is what I have (the 1TB one) and it is plenty fast, note that the benchmark are in Megabyte per sec.

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[Shmee]

The Adata SX8200Pro is a good drive. Especially with this current sale. https://www.newegg.com/xpg-sx8200-p...pro-_-0D9-0017-000W4-_-Product&quicklink=true

 

[MalVeauX]

Hrm,

I wonder if my current CPU in my observatory is the issue. My laptop was an i3 based laptop with USB3 and the speeds were good on USB bus, the cameras were getting close to max potential throughput generating data onto the SSD. The desktop I replaced it with, is an AM3/AM2+ (Gigbayte GA-MA785GM-US2H) board (had to add USB3 via PCIe card) and is running an AMD Athlon II x4 600e (45 watt AM3 Quadcore at 2.2Ghz). The CPU is low power and slow. I wonder if this is having a grave impact on current USB performance. I wonder if I should just get a Phenom II 955 for like $35 and put that in there basically. I'm just not sure how much the CPU is effecting the USB bus performance on these cameras. Or maybe the chipsets and the motherboard itself is just not going to handle the throughput of a 20MP CMOS camera at 20FPS. It works when I limit it, but at full parameters it cripples and doesn't work. I likely do need to upgrade to something newer, but the question becomes what. And frankly I don't see a difference between spending $200~250 for some crippled hardware vs latest hardware for the same cost, so might as well go for something latest release with USB3.1 or USB3.2 so that when the type of cameras I use advance to those speeds, I'll have it ready to go. Thinking out loud though, not sure.

Very best,

 

[Steltek]

Probably a stupid question, but have you checked to see if the SSD could be throttling due to heat and slowing everything down? Depending upon how long those videos are, you could be writing a lot of raw sequential data at a time.

 

[MalVeauX]

Probably a stupid question, but have you checked to see if the SSD could be throttling due to heat and slowing everything down? Depending upon how long those videos are, you could be writing a lot of raw sequential data at a time.

Yea, I've tested the SSD. It handles it. It's a Samsung EVO 860. I had it in the laptop before this desktop and it performed great there. It's on a slower architecture with a slower worse CPU and memory handling and chipset now. Even without using the SSD at all, merely previewing, the bus cannot handle the 20MP CMOS camera in simple live viewing (not even writing data). So it's definitely at heart going to be the total platform at this point.

Very best,

 

[VirtualLarry]

older AMD chipsets like those used on AM2/AM2+/AM3 didn't have as good a USB3.0 throughput (IIRC), as contemporary Intel rigs, like a Sandy Bridge i5-2500K, etc.

 

[sdifox]

older AMD chipsets like those used on AM2/AM2+/AM3 didn't have as good a USB3.0 throughput (IIRC), as contemporary Intel rigs, like a Sandy Bridge i5-2500K, etc.

He used an PCIE add on card. And seems to have issue when dealing with live view, most likely it's the PCIE addon card not being up to snuff.


Op do you have exact model of usb addon card, just so we can look up the chipset.

 

[MalVeauX]

He used an PCIE add on card. And seems to have issue when dealing with live view, most likely it's the PCIE addon card not being up to snuff.


Op do you have exact model of usb addon card, just so we can look up the chipset.

It's an Anker Uspeed PCI-E USB 3.0 express card.

Amazon.com: Anker® Uspeed PCI-E to USB 3.0 2 Port Express Card, with 1 USB 3.0 20-pin Connector and 5V 4 Pin Male Power Connector: Computers & Accessories

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Uspeed PCI-E to USB 3.0 2 Port Express Card

With 2 USB 3.0 Ports and 5V 4-Pin Power Connector for Desktops [VL805 Chipset]

www.anker.com

VL805 chipset?

Very best,

 

[sdifox]

It's an Anker Uspeed PCI-E USB 3.0 express card.

Amazon.com: Anker® Uspeed PCI-E to USB 3.0 2 Port Express Card, with 1 USB 3.0 20-pin Connector and 5V 4 Pin Male Power Connector: Computers & Accessories

Buy Anker® Uspeed PCI-E to USB 3.0 2 Port Express Card, with 1 USB 3.0 20-pin Connector and 5V 4 Pin Male Power Connector: USB Port Cards - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Uspeed PCI-E to USB 3.0 2 Port Express Card

With 2 USB 3.0 Ports and 5V 4-Pin Power Connector for Desktops [VL805 Chipset]

www.anker.com

VL805 chipset?

Very best,

Via chipset. try this

Download VIA Labs VL805 USB 3.0 Controller Driver 4.70C for Windows Vista, Windows Vista 64 bit, Windows 7, Windows 7 64 bit, Windows 8, Windows 8 64 bit, Windows 8.1, Windows 8.1 64 bit

Download VIA Labs VL805 USB 3.0 Controller Driver 4.70C - Motherboard

drivers.softpedia.com

see if the firmware needs to be updated to support UASP mode.


I suggest you move up to win10 even if you decide to keep the existing box.

weird, didn't you say you are using a laptop? why is it a desktop card?

 

[MalVeauX]

weird, didn't you say you are using a laptop? why is it a desktop card?

It was a laptop, which started to malfunction (keys stopped work, a usb port stopped working, I was dripping sweat into the keyboard, it was in there for a few years but it got problematic after I got it wet a few times). So I replaced it with some parts I put together (spare stuff laying around) and made a workable desktop and put it out there instead. The performance of the desktop however is lacking compared to the old laptop even. So I'm exploring just doing a rebuild using existing parts for the desktop (like PSU, case, SSD, etc) and just getting new MB, RAM and CPU.

Very best,