Low Surge Energy Rating even for expensive Smart Online UPS's ... Why ?

[westom]

I'm not trying to slam the guy, but he's a genuine kook.

If true, then cite technical flaws. I do not recommend antibiotics. I do not slam you for making speculations about video games. Insufficient technical knowledge is why so many assume near zero protection in a UPS is 100% protection.

I must be a kook because urban myths are exposed in detail and with numbers. Companies that promote those myths could not be wrong? A majority who deny and then get emotional did not learn how this stuff works. Even ignored near zero UPS numbers to recommend it as protection. Many will slam or insult the messenger rather than admit how easily myths were believed. Then angrily attack the messenger rather than admit the first thing they believed was a scam.

Others read their emotional outbursts. Then know its target must be a kook. I did this stuff not years ago - decades ago. Others did not. Direct lightning strike without damage is old and proven technology. Why do UPS manufacturers install near zero protection in their products? It markets well to many who are emotionally manipulated by a soundbyte. In this case, a near zero joules numbers for each UPS means it does 100% protection. Myths said so. Anyone who says otherwise must be a kook.

Best protection for near zero protectors inside a UPS and for all other household appliances costs about $1 per protected appliance. If reading with care, then a $1 MOV myth would not be posted. Most only hear what they want to hear. Then attack anyone who cites what they needed to know before making an informed recommendation. Nobody said anything about a $1 MOV. He jumped to conclusions before learning what really works. Misinformed recommendations are almost routine when discussing protection. Therefore near zero protectors in a UPS increase sales and profits.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Westom, I have difficulty understanding many of your explanations of things. Especially with such long explanations.
Also the relative lack of any links/sources/proof is probably another part of the mis-communications, going on.

If true, then cite technical flaws.

Here we go, a possible technical flaw.

Let's try and keep things simple. In the past, you said...

Wood is an electrical conductor

Past thread where you made the comment, above

So are you trying to say, that if I wired a battery, to a suitable bulb, with "wire like", sticks of wood. The bulb would glow, very brightly ?

Most people (I believe), consider wood to be an insulator. Or at least significantly more of an insulator, than a conductor.

I.e. Can you give me any examples, where "WOOD", is used as the conductor. E.g. Inside a wire/cable ?

I am happy to supply links, confirming what I am saying here, if you want.

I understand that if (very) high voltages are involved and/or the wood gets damp/wet, it can start to conduct. But most/all other insulators, break down under similar conditions, especially with very high voltages. (Wood is especially vulnerable to water, as it tends to soak in).

Wood is not usually used (these days), with high voltage power lines (as the insulator), because (especially when it is wet/damp), it can start to conduct.

I also understand that wood, is not as good an insulator, as some other, materials. Its lack of fire resistance, is probably another factor as well.

 

[westom]

So are you trying to say, that if I wired a battery, to a suitable bulb, with "wire like", sticks of wood. The bulb would glow, very brightly ?

Most people (I believe), consider wood to be an insulator. Or at least significantly more of an insulator, than a conductor.

We all learned in elementary school science that wood is an electrical conductor. Why did lightning strike Franklin's church steeple? Because wood was a best electrical connection to earth. You have assumed different numbers (ie battery through wood would light a bulb). Nobody said that. Wood is an electrical conductor. Just not a very good one.


Lightning (20,000 amps) connects to earth via a wooden church steeple. But wood is not a best conductor. 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. So a conductive church steeple is damaged. If wood was an insulator, then lightning would not strike church steeples. Or trees.

Wood (wet or dry) is an electrical conductor. To say something useful requires perspective. 'Yes or No' answers cannot exist without that perspective.

For example, how many pipes are currently leaking in your house? All. By how much? Leaks are so little that layman assume no pipes are leaking. Useful descriptions require longer explainations that always include perspective - the numbers.

Need specific numbers? For wood (wet or dry), conductivity is between 10e-5 to 10e-7 mhos per meter. Again, a useful answer is not possible with a soundbyte. Technically concise answers are longer.

If a concept of conductive wood is new, then this post is not appreciated without multiple rereads.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

We all learned in elementary school science that wood is an electrical conductor. Why did lightning strike Franklin's church steeple? Because wood was a best electrical connection to earth. You have assumed different numbers (ie battery through wood would light a bulb). Nobody said that. Wood is an electrical conductor. Just not a very good one.


Lightning (20,000 amps) connects to earth via a wooden church steeple. But wood is not a best conductor. 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. So a conductive church steeple is damaged. If wood was an insulator, then lightning would not strike church steeples. Or trees.

Wood (wet or dry) is an electrical conductor. To say something useful requires perspective. 'Yes or No' answers cannot exist without that perspective.

For example, how many pipes are currently leaking in your house? All. By how much? Leaks are so little that layman assume no pipes are leaking. Useful descriptions require longer explainations that always include perspective - the numbers.

Need specific numbers? For wood (wet or dry), conductivity is between 10e-5 to 10e-7 mhos per meter. Again, a useful answer is not possible with a soundbyte. Technically concise answers are longer.

If a concept of conductive wood is new, then this post is not appreciated without multiple rereads.

In the old days, electronics was often made using breadboards, which are made of wood.

http://tangentsoft.net/elec/breadboard.html

Literally, a breadboard is a plank of wood intended for cutting bread on. Think early 1900s here, before sliced bread, and before transistors. Even basic projects were large by today's standards. People would take a bread board and use it as a platform to support the tubes, transformers, capacitors and other large components. Bread boards came to be associated with electronics experimenters because they were inexpensive, sturdy and readily available, and it's easy to move components around on them.

Also, unlike today's lower voltage circuitry, the voltages in the old days were around 100 volts, or more, using valves/tubes/transformers etc.

If wood was a significant conductor, it would have tended to make it unsuitable, for use as a breadboard.

Yes, I agree, that "insulators", can conduct (usually) a small, very small or even minuscule, "leakage current", but that has not stopped common convention, calling them insulators.

Analogy:
"Very Dry" table salt, might be 99.9999% pure salt and 0.0001% water.
Does that mean that the salt, should be called "wet" ?

When we say something is an insulator. We do NOT mean that there is necessarily zero leakage current, or that it will withstand 1000,000,000,000,000,000 volts, without conducting, at least a small amount.

There is a common understanding, as to what an "insulator" is, are you NOT happy with the standard definition of an insulator ?

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Need specific numbers? For wood (wet or dry), conductivity is between 10e-5 to 10e-7 mhos per meter. Again, a useful answer is not possible with a soundbyte. Technically concise answers are longer.

I agree, there would be a small or tiny current (leakage current), in wood, making it, not a particularly good insulator. But that current is a bit (probably a tiny current in practice) too small, to start calling it a conductor.

Yes, it can conduct a lightning strike, but it is normal for an insulator, to "break down", once a certain voltage (relative to the length, and other factors, including temperature) has been reached ("breakdown voltage").

Even air, can change into a "conductor" (probably bad terminolgy), when lightning strikes.

Should we now call air a conductor ? (Joke, I HOPE).

 

[westom]

In the old days, electronics was often made using breadboards, which are made of wood.

Currents are leaking across circuits via conductive wood. Leaking current is small enough to not aversely effect that circuit operation. But wood is clearly conducting current.

Conductivity of earth and wood are similar. According to your logic, earth ground also must be an insulator. Why are earthing electrodes driven into an insulator called earth? Both earth and wood are electrical conductors.

Context: relevant to this discussion, wood is a conductor.

Air when converted to plasma is an excellent conductor. But to convert air to plasma means that even air must be a conductor - albeit a poor one. Air that can restrict a current across switch contacts is also sufficiently conductive as to permit electricity to convert air into plasma. Again, perspective.

A UPS has near zero joules, as the OP noted. Just enough above zero so that many know it is 100% protection. Many who ignore numbers assume its hundreds of joules will somehow absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Context: relevant to this discussion, wood is a conductor.

If that were true, then buildings (at least wooden ones) would NOT need lightning conductors. Because the building (in the context of this discussion, it is made of wood), would happily conduct the lightning strike, down to ground.
But in practice, it is NOT a good conductor (wood), and has a very significant resistance, and so would be likely to be damaged by the lightning strike (because of its resistance, causing significant heat to build up etc).

Hence the need for a lightning conductor, which is a proper conductor, with a small resistance, which will (usually) safely ground lightning strikes, over the life of the building.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_rod

A lightning rod (US, AUS) or lightning conductor (UK) is a metal rod or metallic object mounted on top of an elevated structure, such as a building, a ship, or even a tree, electrically bonded using a wire or electrical conductor to interface with ground or "earth" through an electrode, engineered to protect the structure in the event of lightning strike. If lightning hits the structure, it will preferentially strike the rod and be conducted to ground through the wire, instead of passing through the structure, where it could start a fire or cause electrocution. Lightning rods are also called finials, air terminals or strike termination devices.
In a lightning protection system, a lightning rod is a single component of the system. The lightning rod requires a connection to earth to perform its protective function. Lightning rods come in many different forms, including hollow, solid, pointed, rounded, flat strips or even bristle brush-like. The main attribute common to all lightning rods is that they are all made of conductive materials, such as copper and aluminum. Copper and its alloys are the most common materials used in lightning protection.[1]

 

[westom]

If that were true, then buildings (at least wooden ones) would NOT need lightning conductors.

Again, please stop ignoring numbers. Your picture and all that was explained previously - multiple times. You can only misread or intentionally ignore what was posted by doing what the easily manipulated and naive do. Ignore numbers.

Again, wood is an electrical conductor. If it was not, then no lightning rod connectdion to earth is necessary. Your example demonstrate why a lightning rod connects to earth. So that a 20,000 amp current does not use less conductive wood to connect to earth. And instead uses a more conductive lightning rod connection.

A wooden church steeple is struck by lightning because wood is an electrical conductor. Your last reply is again bogus only because you have ignored numbers. If wood was not conductive, then lightning would not use wood as an electrical conduction to earth. Numbers for that conductivity were posted. Your replies repeatedly ignore those numbers. Lightning rods are unnecessary if wood is not an electrical conductor.

Ignoring numbers is also why the naive and subjectively manipulated assume a UPS does surge protection. A UPS, as demonstrated by the OP, has near zero surge protector parts. Then consumers, who ignore numbers, recommend a UPS for surge protection. Manufacturer specification numbers demonstrate a UPS is near zero surge protection. Only the most naive consumers also ignore those numbers.

 

[DrPizza]

So, Westom, what you're saying is that there's no such thing as an insulator? All matter is made of atoms. All atoms have subatomic particles that are charged. A sufficient potential difference is all that's necessary for a current.

Heck, with your apparent definition, even a vacuum is a conductor. (E.g., cathode ray tube.) I'm not sure if you're simply being pedantic about this, or if you're trying to provoke arguments.

Incidentally, I would think that breakdown voltage also applies to wood. Insulator until a certain potential difference is reached.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I guess everything can be a conductor if you put enough effort towards it... and voltage.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Again, please stop ignoring numbers. Your picture and all that was explained previously - multiple times. You can only misread or intentionally ignore what was posted by doing what the easily manipulated and naive do. Ignore numbers.

Again, wood is an electrical conductor.

In an attempt to keep things simple...

The dictionary definition of an insulator, is something on the lines of...

insulator definition

A material that does not easily transmit energy, such as electric current or heat. Materials such as wood, plastic, and ceramics are insulators. Fiberglass is an example of a heat insulator. ( Compare conductor.)

SOURCE: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insulator

You seem to be saying...

Again, please stop ignoring numbers. Your picture and all that was explained previously - multiple times. You can only misread or intentionally ignore what was posted by doing what the easily manipulated and naive do. Ignore numbers.

Again, wood is an electrical conductor.

So you seem to be accusing me of ignoring what you say, and the numbers, and previous explanations etc.

Are you trying to say that I should ignore Dictionaries/Physics-books/Professors/Personal-experience/Other-people, who all seem to be of the understanding, that under normal circumstances (i.e. No 25,000,000 volt lightning strikes, at the time of performing the experiment), wood is reasonably closer to an insulator (i.e. it WON'T light a bulb, via a low voltage battery), as opposed to being a conductor (which WOULD light a bulb, using a low voltage battery) ?

tl;dr
If wood is a conductor, why do most other people/books/professors etc, consider it an insulator (maybe NOT the best of insulators, but definitely NOT a conductor, under normal (reasonable voltage), circumstances).

Yes, I am tending to ignore your numerical figures, because it is NORMAL for insulators to allow a small/tiny amount of current to flow (leakage current) and "break down", if a large enough voltage is applied, relative to the thickness of the material. (There are other factors involved, which I am ignoring to simplify things here).

Capacitors are a good example of (usually well specified in data sheets) insulators.
They often/usually have maximum leakage current values and maximum voltage ratings (the break down voltage is usually the max voltage + safety margin + potentially other stuff. I.e. A 100 Volt (max) rated capacitor, may need considerably more than 100V, in order for it to start to conduct, significant amounts of electricity). Obviously, I'm ignoring the time the capacitor takes to charge up or discharge, and treating it like an insulator.

Are you saying that if I bought a "wooden" capacitor (ok, I don't think you can buy them in practice, but in theory, they COULD exist). Rated for 1000 Volts with a negligible leakage current, it would act as a permanent CONDUCTOR of electricity (when less than 1000 V is applied, and ambient temperate etc, are within data sheet allowances) ?

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Further Information

This "Physics Book", explains about Insulators and stuff

Dielectrics are insulators, plain and simple. The two words refer to the same class of materials, but are of different origin and are used preferentially in different contexts.

The plastic coating on an electrical cord is an insulator. The glass or ceramic plates used to support power lines and keep them from shorting out to the ground are insulators. Pretty much anytime a nonmetallic solid is used in an electrical device it's called an insulator. Perhaps the only time the word dielectric is used is in reference to the nonconducting layer of a capacitor.

dielectric breakdown

Every insulator can be forced to conduct electricity. This phenomena is known as dielectric breakdown.

So, Westom, what you're saying is that there's no such thing as an insulator? All matter is made of atoms. All atoms have subatomic particles that are charged. A sufficient potential difference is all that's necessary for a current.

Heck, with your apparent definition, even a vacuum is a conductor. (E.g., cathode ray tube.) I'm not sure if you're simply being pedantic about this, or if you're trying to provoke arguments.

Incidentally, I would think that breakdown voltage also applies to wood. Insulator until a certain potential difference is reached.

I've been trying to explain it, to him. But as I do, my simple low voltage battery/bulb experiment, gets hit by a massive, multi-million volt lightning strike, out of nowhere.

 

[westom]

So, Westom, what you're saying is that there's no such thing as an insulator?

Again, if a concept does not include perspective, well, that is how junk science is promoted. Context: in this discussion, wood is an electrical conductor to a layman. In the flashlight bulb and battery, it is not. Perspective. A true insulator never exists. Just like a pipe without leaks never exists. Pipes in your house are leaking so little that a layman says it is not leaking. But a same pipe in a semiconductor fab might be a serious and potentially dangerous leak. Perspective.

A lightning rod protects a house because wood is an electrical conductor. Repeated because at least one does not read what is posted. "But wood is not a best conductor. 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. So a conductive church steeple is damaged." Damaged because wood is an electical conductor.

Topic is not a misguided belief that wood does not conduct electricity. Topic is about many who are experts at ignoring numbers. The OP asked about tiny joules in a UPS. His concerns are correct. Most read "surge protection" in a color glossy. That subjective claim somehow proves that a UPS is effective surge protection. It is not. Those tiny joules numbers (smaller than power strips) are just enough above zero to claim 'surge protection'. If more honest, it reads "near zero surge protection".

Recommendations or conclusions without perspective (ie numbers) is why junk science exists among consumers in nutrition, gasoline, light bulbs, Saddam's WMDs, and surge protection. Eyes glaze over when numbers appear. Ignoring perspective is why so many believe wood is an insulator - when context is lightning. When context is not a 1.5 volt battery.

A UPS has near zero protection. But just enough above zero so that it can be recommended as 100% (superior) surge protection.

Breakdown voltage also applies. For breakdown to exist, a poorest electrical conductor (ie air) must conduct some elecricity. Tiniest conducted electricity causes a conversion from gas to plasma. Then air becomes a good conductor. Unfortunately SOFTengCOMPelec wants to argue subjectively. His eyes glaze over with each number. And he is fixated on what is irrelevant to the topic and the OP.

A UPS has near zero joules numbers so that people such as SOFTengCOMPelec will recommend it as superior surge protection. He must ignore those near zero joules numbers that the OP asked about. That is the point. Recommendations without numbers is why so much junk science exists. And why many foolishly recommend that UPS for surge protection.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

If true, then cite technical flaws.

I'm afraid, you seem to have FAILED, to address the flaw(s), that I was attempting to detail. There were others, but we seemed to have run out of time to discuss them.

You seem to have largely IGNORED my posts.

This would indicate that You DON'T seem to be a trustworthy/valid source of information, on the internet.

You must be looking in a mirror when you say this. You have been proven wrong for the better part of a decade and at least 25 forums where I have seen you post. My electrical engineering team even has posted some of your threads on the wall for the hilarity. Simply put, I don't consider anything you post as a valid source because it has been proven incorrect repeatedly. I am no longer responding to you in this thread. Feel free to post another extremely long post with no content, as I plan to not read it. There is plenty of evidence right in this forum that shows your complete misunderstanding of this subject that you so often reply to.

ahmadka: I would recommend you wait for other posters for discussion.

Why do people even argue with Westom? He's a 100% genuine kook that trolls forums *all over the internet* looking to appear smart, and posting long, pointless drivel that doesn't actually add anything to any discussion he participates in.

I'm not trying to slam the guy, but he's a genuine kook. He's been banned from three forums that I know of, and none of these forums have anything to do with tech, electrical issues or related topics. He literally joins hundreds of random forums looking to get into arguments with people in some weird need to appear intelligent and informed, when the reality is that he's neither.

Another really odd aspect about Westom is that he's been doing this for years and years.

To the above two posters, and anyone else, SORRY, I should have listened to YOUR advice.

 

[westom]

You seem to have largely IGNORED my posts.

Of course.
1) The technically naive will insult and disparage another when a basic technical knolwledge does not exist.

2) You condinue denying the conductivity of wood when even posted numbers that define that conductivity were provided. Wood has conductivity similar to the conductivity of earth. You even ignored that to claim wood is an insulator.

3) Many eyes glaze over with numbers. You have clearly demonstrated that trait.

4) The OP asked about near zero numbers in a UPS. You ignored the entire point of this thread - the near zero numbers that others ignore to claim a UPS does effective surge protection.

5) You have completely ignored context in each point to take on an extremist position devoid of perspective. As usual, the technically ignorant then resort to insults, in this case, to both deny perspective (the numbers) and to continue ranting. Thank you for demonstrating why some will post incessently while completely ignoring numbers (ie conductivity of wood) and the topic (why a UPS has near zero protection numbers).

 

[imagoon]

Of course.
1) The technically naive will insult and disparage another when a basic technical knolwledge does not exist.

2) You condinue denying the conductivity of wood when even posted numbers that define that conductivity were provided. Wood has conductivity similar to the conductivity of earth. You even ignored that to claim wood is an insulator.

3) Many eyes glaze over with numbers. You have clearly demonstrated that trait.

4) The OP asked about near zero numbers in a UPS. You ignored the entire point of this thread - the near zero numbers that others ignore to claim a UPS does effective surge protection.

5) You have completely ignored context in each point to take on an extremist position devoid of perspective. As usual, the technically ignorant then resort to insults, in this case, to both deny perspective (the numbers) and to continue ranting. Thank you for demonstrating why some will post incessently while completely ignoring numbers (ie conductivity of wood) and the topic (why a UPS has near zero protection numbers).

1) No you have ignored his posts. He has sources and facts and presented this evidence, you have chosen to ignore him or call naive rather than present actual facts or evidence to support your position. This is a failure of you, not anyone here in this thread.

2) Earth:

Usual values: from 10 up to 1000 (Ω-m)
Exceptional values: from 1 up to 10000 (Ω-m)

Wood: 1×10^14 to 1x10^16 (Ω-m)

Water logged wood: (IE it has been sitting in a lake for a decade) 1 x 10^3 (Ω-m) to 1 x 10^4 (Ω-m)

These facts refute your claim.

3) You ignoring the argument indicates you have no valid response to his claim.

4) You were the very first post and brought up things like:
Marketing. (irrelevant to the OP)
"Less than 10 feet ground" (incorrect information)
"Protection of thousands of Joules (closest part to being on topic)
"Faciliities that cannot have" (conjecture, opinion)
"Coax protection" OP never mentioned a COAX nor presented a UPS with that feature
"Telephone protection" Again OP never mentioned this
"No protector does protection" (nonsense)
"You did what many techs did not do" Conjecture with poor deductive reasoning.

You began the thread off topic as the very first post to the OP.

5) No he "failed" to nod blindly to nonsensical, incoherent, obvious misunderstanding of the subject you consider an expert about. When he presented you facts it was you who "You have completely ignored context in each point to take on an extremist position devoid of perspective. As usual, the technically ignorant then resort to insults, in this case, to both deny perspective (the numbers) and to continue ranting. Thank you for demonstrating why some will post incessently while completely ignoring numbers (ie conductivity of wood) and the topic (why a UPS has near zero protection numbers). "

 

[imagoon]

I'm afraid, you seem to have FAILED, to address the flaw(s), that I was attempting to detail. There were others, but we seemed to have run out of time to discuss them.

You seem to have largely IGNORED my posts.

This would indicate that You DON'T seem to be a trustworthy/valid source of information, on the internet.





To the above two posters, and anyone else, SORRY, I should have listened to YOUR advice.

Heh, no worries. Every post has 2 - 3 people that go through this exact experience.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Heh, no worries. Every post has 2 - 3 people that go through this exact experience.

Thanks for the support!

I'd like to know why most (if not all) APC Smart Online UPS's have such low Surge Energy Ratings ?! Considering that these UPS's cost $2000 ~ $3000 a piece, one would expect them to have an exceptionally high Surge Energy Rating, higher than most common cheap surge protectors available in the market. But this is not so.

For example, THIS (need to click here) UPS only has a 480 Joules Surge Energy Rating, but the following cheap surge protectors offer almost 10 times the Surge protection, but cost only a fraction:

Belkin 12 Outlet Pivot Plug Surge Protector with 8 Foot Cord ~ 4320 Joules ~ $27.10

Tripp Lite HT10DBS Home Theater Isobar Surge Protector 10 Outlet RJ11 RJ45 Coax ~ 3840 Joules ~ $79.96

So why is this so ?

This application note, seems to somewhat explain the situation.

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/td01005004e.pdf

Don't be Confused by Joule Ratings
Most UPS devices advertise a level of surge protection
measured in Joules. A high Joule rating, however,
does not always mean better protection. The IEEE,
IEC and NEMA do not recommend using Joule ratings
when specifying or comparing surge suppressors
because they often provide misleading and conflicting
information. For example, in a 120 V system, a 150 or
175 V MOV could be used. And even though the 175 V
MOV has a higher Joule rating, the 150 V MOV has a
much lower let-through voltage and offers better surge
protection.

Is the surge protection provided by a UPS adequate?
The answer is NO! The surge protection provided by
most UPS units is limited, and often does not contain
EMI/RFI filtering, which lowers the let-through voltage
provided by MOVs alone.

 

[westom]

This application note, seems to somewhat explain the situation.

1) Your citation does not discuss a UPS that homeowners use. Homeowners use a UPS designed for Category C locations. Your citation is about a completely different device, also called a UPS, that is located near a service entrance and found in industrial environments.

easton.com citation discussed a UPS for Category B locations using circuits different from how protectors devices are implemented in a home UPS.

2) imagoon posted numbers that show wood is electrically conductive. However his numbers would be for a type of wood typically not used in building construction. Homes and church steeples typically use a wood that is more conductive. Not as conductive as wood that has soaked in water. But more conductive than his numbers. Either way, the bottom line remains. Lightning strikes a church steeple because wood is a more conductive connection to earth.

Why does lightning damage a steeple? Wood is an electrical conductor. But is not a good electrical conductor. 20,000 amps could create a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage means high energy. Steeple damaged because conductive wood is not conductive enough. Reality does not change because you igniored number.

What effective protectors do and what a lightning rod does is similar. Both are effective because a surge current connects to earth via a more conductive path. Then hundreds of thousands of joules do not dissipate destructively inside household appliances or in structural wood. Despite so many denials base only in hearsay and myths, a protector (or lighting rod) is only as effective as its earth ground. These concepts have been well understood and proven by over 100 years of experience. We suffered direct lightning strikes without damage. It's not hard once those myths are disposed.

3) Plugin protectors can feature low joules to only protect from surges that typically do no damage. Then naive consumers assume it protects from all types of surges. A shrewd marketing ploy.

A 1000 joule surge is often converted by electronics into electricity to safely power its semiconductors. Near zero surge protectors will even fail on surges too tiny to damage appliances. Undersizing promotes sales and increases profit. Tiny protectors in a Category C UPS means the naive will recommend that UPS as a surge protector. Because so many routinely ignore spec numbers. At least one has also confused a Category B UPS for industrial environments with the topic - Category C UPS for homes.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

1) Your citation does not discuss a UPS that homeowners use. Homeowners use a UPS designed for Category C locations. Your citation is about a completely different device, also called a UPS, that is located near a service entrance and found in industrial environments.

easton.com citation discussed a UPS for Category B locations using circuits different from how protectors devices are implemented in a home UPS.

2) imagoon posted numbers that show wood is electrically conductive. However his numbers would be for a type of wood typically not used in building construction. Homes and church steeples typically use a wood that is more conductive. Not as conductive as wood that has soaked in water. But more conductive than his numbers. Either way, the bottom line remains. Lightning strikes a church steeple because wood is a more conductive connection to earth.

Why does lightning damage a steeple? Wood is an electrical conductor. But is not a good electrical conductor. 20,000 amps could create a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage means high energy. Steeple damaged because conductive wood is not conductive enough. Reality does not change because you igniored number.

What effective protectors do and what a lightning rod does is similar. Both are effective because a surge current connects to earth via a more conductive path. Then hundreds of thousands of joules do not dissipate destructively inside household appliances or in structural wood. Despite so many denials base only in hearsay and myths, a protector (or lighting rod) is only as effective as its earth ground. These concepts have been well understood and proven by over 100 years of experience. We suffered direct lightning strikes without damage. It's not hard once those myths are disposed.

3) Plugin protectors can feature low joules to only protect from surges that typically do no damage. Then naive consumers assume it protects from all types of surges. A shrewd marketing ploy.

A 1000 joule surge is often converted by electronics into electricity to safely power its semiconductors. Near zero surge protectors will even fail on surges too tiny to damage appliances. Undersizing promotes sales and increases profit. Tiny protectors in a Category C UPS means the naive will recommend that UPS as a surge protector. Because so many routinely ignore spec numbers. At least one has also confused a Category B UPS for industrial environments with the topic - Category C UPS for homes.

(1)...I could well be wrong, as regards home use UPS.

I don't have time to read through and re-write it now.

But I should have used reports, such as:

This One - How to Protect Your House
and Its Contents from Lightning
IEEE Guide for Surge Protection of Equipment
Connected to AC Power and Communication Circuits

(2)...You still seem to be completely MISSING the point, and NOT understanding what I am asking.

I am asking if WOOD is an insulator or conductor ?

You are suddenly bringing in all sorts of stuff, which has got NOTHING to do with my question. Which is to make sure that there are no obvious technical difficulties going on, with your discussions.

You suddenly bring in that the wood has to be part of a Church Steeple (I'm trying to ask a simple/basic technical question, why bring Churches into it ?). It has to be hit by a 25,000,000 Volt lightning strike, be soaking wet and maybe other things you suddenly create, out of nowhere.

Analogy:
I'm asking you if a brand new box of matches, can potentially be used to start a fire ?

You are saying, NO. ABSOLUTELY 100% NO, they can't be.

Because the matches are soaking wet, they were previously burnt out by a 25,000,000 lightning strike, while they were resting on top of the Church Steeple.

Also, the MOVs on the tips of the matches, are NOT flammable.

Finally, the matches joules rating, (the NUMBERS which you are still ignoring), are TOO small, for the matches to work.

End of ANALOGY. :wub:

(3)...See the new link I posted, above. Which still says something on the lines that the joules rating is too poorly defined, to be usefully used to choose between devices.

Due to the difficulty in comparing Joule ratings, many companies no longer
publish this number. Most standards written recently in the surge protection
industry either warn of the possible misuse of Joule ratings or, by omission, do not
recommend the use of Joule ratings.

 

[imagoon]

1) Your citation does not discuss a UPS that homeowners use. Homeowners use a UPS designed for Category C locations. Your citation is about a completely different device, also called a UPS, that is located near a service entrance and found in industrial environments.

easton.com citation discussed a UPS for Category B locations using circuits different from how protectors devices are implemented in a home UPS.

2) imagoon posted numbers that show wood is electrically conductive. However his numbers would be for a type of wood typically not used in building construction. Homes and church steeples typically use a wood that is more conductive. Not as conductive as wood that has soaked in water. But more conductive than his numbers. Either way, the bottom line remains. Lightning strikes a church steeple because wood is a more conductive connection to earth.

Why does lightning damage a steeple? Wood is an electrical conductor. But is not a good electrical conductor. 20,000 amps could create a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage means high energy. Steeple damaged because conductive wood is not conductive enough. Reality does not change because you igniored number.

What effective protectors do and what a lightning rod does is similar. Both are effective because a surge current connects to earth via a more conductive path. Then hundreds of thousands of joules do not dissipate destructively inside household appliances or in structural wood. Despite so many denials base only in hearsay and myths, a protector (or lighting rod) is only as effective as its earth ground. These concepts have been well understood and proven by over 100 years of experience. We suffered direct lightning strikes without damage. It's not hard once those myths are disposed.

3) Plugin protectors can feature low joules to only protect from surges that typically do no damage. Then naive consumers assume it protects from all types of surges. A shrewd marketing ploy.

A 1000 joule surge is often converted by electronics into electricity to safely power its semiconductors. Near zero surge protectors will even fail on surges too tiny to damage appliances. Undersizing promotes sales and increases profit. Tiny protectors in a Category C UPS means the naive will recommend that UPS as a surge protector. Because so many routinely ignore spec numbers. At least one has also confused a Category B UPS for industrial environments with the topic - Category C UPS for homes.

Again. Evidence? Pine, white pine, oak, cedar, mahogany, ebony, ash, cherry, apple, red wood, all fall in those quoted numbers. You need to stop believing in "magic wood." You are ignoring rather than addressing the argument.

Current doesn't "make" voltage in the way you are implying, that has been mentioned several times already in several threads. Your example violates Ohm's law which is a elementary equation. As the voltage increases the current will drop in relation to the resistance of the path traveled (ohms). Total power will be equal. This is why these devices are rates in power such as joules in the first place.

Heck your use of "category C" is even wrong. Category C electrical devices are outdoors on the pole. Category B is inside at the service entrance and category A is more than 30 ft from the service gear or > 60ft from the category C gear.

http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/surge-protective-categories-defined-by-ansi-ieee-c62-41

Category C: Outside and service entrances (line side)

Service drops from pole to building
Conducted between meter and disconnect breaker
Overhead lines to nearby buildings

Category B: Feeders and short branch circuits (line side)

Distribution panel equipment
Short branch circuits and feeder lines

Category A: Branch circuits and outlets distant from Categories B and C

Outlets > 30 ft (10 m) from Category B boundary
Outlets > 60 ft (20 m) from Category C boundary

Please stop posting incorrect information. It is very evident that you have no understanding about what you are posting. You provide no evidence and repeatedly misunderstand and misread any evidence provided. The mass majority of what you post is easily disputed in the NEC, UL, IEEE and ANSI among many other standards bodies. It is very obvious you are not even qualified to plug in a $1 surge suppressor let alone discuss them or lighting suppression systems. I am not sure you even understand that lightning is not necessarily a surge or vis versa.

This PDF even explains the OP's question:

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/td01005004e.pdf on page 2, note 2. They recommend the SPD be placed outside the UPS because it is cheaper and easier to replace than a unit inside a UPS. Hence the lower ratings on the UPS.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

This PDF even explains the OP's question:

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/td01005004e.pdf on page 2, note 2. They recommend the SPD be placed outside the UPS because it is cheaper and easier to replace than a unit inside a UPS. Hence the lower ratings on the UPS.

That makes a lot of sense, and is a very good explanation.

By having the proper surge protector(s), outside of the UPS. Means that they are readily/easily/cheaply replaceable, even if they wear out, somewhat frequently, in some places.

It's preferable for a horrible lightning strike to destroy a $20 surge protector, rather than burn out a $300 UPS.

 

[westom]

I am asking if WOOD is an insulator or conductor ?

First, question addresses how surge protection works. Surge protection of appliances works for same reasons that protection of wooden church steeples work. What Franklin demonstrated in 1752 is how surge protection has been done for over 100 years. Your numbers confirm wood is an electrical conductor. Wood is not a excellent conductor. So lightning (an electrical current through wood) creates a high voltage. Lightning creates a near zero voltage when 20,000 amps connects to earth, instead, via a properly earthed lightning rod.

Unfortunately, many (ie imagoon) do not understand the difference between a voltage source and current source. If effective protection exists, then 25 million volts does not exist. A concept taught in the first semester, first year. Without that knowledge, a layman cannot appreciate how protectors work. And why poor conductive wood demonstrates the significance.

Rather than argue about wood's conductivity (which exists), instead, focus on the topic: near zero protectors in a UPS. Wood was simply an example of why damage happens.

Protection is about where current (ie 20,000 amps) flows. And where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Voltage only exists when one foolishly tries to stop / block a surge (or less conductive wood is that path). Voltage increases as necessary so that the current will flow.

Second, comprehend a citation before recommending it. You did not understand your eaton.com citation. You did not read the IEEE citation - or just misunderstood its underlying electrical concepts. Your citation says:

An effective, low-impedance ground path is critical for the successful operation of an SPD. ... Therefore, an evaluation of the service entrance grounding system at the time of the SPD installation is very important.

What a protector must do is

2) To reduce the surge current to the downstream SPDs.
3) To stop the large lightning currents from passing into the house wiring system and damaging the wiring or inducing large voltages that would damage electronic equipment.

OP's UPS does not have a ground necessary for protection. And needs protection provided by a properly earthed SPD. Its near zero joules means uninformed laymen will believe it is 100% protection. Near zero joules cannot absorb hundreds of thousands of joules. 20,000 amps create a high voltage for the same reason it damages wood. Protection means not creating that voltage.

An effective (earthed) protector must exist to protect that UPS and its near zero protector parts (the downstream SPD). Again from your citation:

One of the main functions of the service entrance SPD is to reduce the surge current reaching any downstream protectors

A downstream protector (ie UPS) that has near zero protector parts especially needs to be protected.

Third, citation makes another critically important point in figure 8. Protector parts too close to electronics and too far from earth ground can even earth a surge 8000 volts destructively via any nearby appliance (ie TV2). If a protector does not connect low impedance to earth, then it may earth a surge (ie 8000 volts destructively) via nearby appliances. UPS (with near zero protector parts) does not have that essential connection to earth - as defined necessary by that citation.

 

[westom]

It's preferable for a horrible lightning strike to destroy a $20 surge protector, rather than burn out a $300 UPS.

If a surge protector is burned out by a surge, then first, it did not provide protection. And second, it was grossly undersized.

Protectors adjacent to appliances must somehow block that surge or absorb its energy. So power strips and UPS are rated in joules. A problem when a protector (ie UPS) has near zero joules. Meanwhile another, different, and effective solution is rated in amperes. Since a lighting strike is typicaly 20,000 amps, then a minimal 'whole house' protector (to protect downstrem SPDs) is 50,000 amps. An effective protector must not fail even with direct lighting strikes. This proven solution should remain functional for decades.

Nothing new here. Effective protection as done even 100 years ago. That IEEE article is specific as to why earthing the SPD (whole house protector) is essential. To even protect near zero joules in a UPS.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

I am asking if WOOD is an insulator or conductor ?

First, question addresses how surge protection works. Surge protection of appliances works for same reasons that protection of wooden church steeples work. What Franklin demonstrated in 1752 is how surge protection has been done for over 100 years. Your numbers confirm wood is an electrical conductor. Wood is not a excellent conductor. So lightning (an electrical current through wood) creates a high voltage. Lightning creates a near zero voltage when 20,000 amps connects to earth, instead, via a properly earthed lightning rod.

Unfortunately, many (ie imagoon) do not understand the difference between a voltage source and current source. If effective protection exists, then 25 million volts does not exist. A concept taught in the first semester, first year. Without that knowledge, a layman cannot appreciate how protectors work. And why poor conductive wood demonstrates the significance.

Rather than argue about wood's conductivity (which exists), instead, focus on the topic: near zero protectors in a UPS. Wood was simply an example of why damage happens.

Protection is about where current (ie 20,000 amps) flows. And where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Voltage only exists when one foolishly tries to stop / block a surge (or less conductive wood is that path). Voltage increases as necessary so that the current will flow.
--------Cut------------------------------------------------------------------

Your answer to my question above ("I am asking if WOOD is an insulator or conductor ?"), seems to be answering a completely different question.

Let me try, rephrasing the question.

We open up the UPS unit, and examine its surge protection section, and play careful attention to one of its resistors.

It is marked 1000 MegaOhms, 10% Tolerance, Max 750 Volts. In tiny writing it also says, special Wood (mixture) composite resistor.

Are you trying to say that if I unsolder the resistor, and attempt to measure it, it will NOT read about 1000 MegaOhms (approximately/almost an insulator), but instead read nearer to zero ohms, because...

You are saying "Wood is a conductor" ?
(Given that the question is ASKED within the context of this thread) ?

Or will the resistor read as about 1000 MegaOhms ?