low profile tire advantage over fat tires.

[Solodays]

what are the pros and cons between the 2?

i heard that traditional fat tires perform better on snow?

 

[zerocool84]

Are you going to be putting larger tires on your standard wheels ???

 

[jlee]

Narrower tires perform better on snowy roads.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Originally posted by: JLee
Narrower tires perform better on snowy roads.

I think he's talking about "rubber band" tires, i.e. little sidewall compared to lots of sidewall.

Less sidewall usually means for a rougher ride, and get thin enough you'll have less tread thickness due to lack of material available. Uses larger, heavier rims too so more unsprung weight causing slower acceleration (to a point, possibly not enough to worry about unless you're going for 1/4 mile times).

Thicker sidewall tires give more, so they tend to ride better, plus have deeper tread (usually). Also, you'll have smaller, lighter rims so less unsprung weight meaning quicker 1/4 mile times and such (if it matters to you).

 

[GoatMonkey]

You get quicker response from a low profile tire, but the same tire in higher profile should giver better overall grip. You might get better road feel from the low profile tire also.

Low profile tires exist to be able to run larger wheels to accommodate larger brakes, or just for looks. If you want performance you are probably better off with the original high profile tires.

 

[canadageek]

a medium sidewall (45 or so) is about the lowest you should go before the ride turns to shit.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: canadageek
a medium sidewall (45 or so) is about the lowest you should go before the ride turns to shit.

Totally depends on your width....

 

[canadageek]

yeah, of course. but if you're worried about the effect of sidewall height on performance, your're probably driving something with 205mm treads or wider.

and yes, I know sidewall height=percent of tire width (205/45/16 means 205mm wide, 45% of 205mm sidewall hight)

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by: Solodays
what are the pros and cons between the 2?

i heard that traditional fat tires perform better on snow?

There are no practical advantages to low profile tires, only a number of rather significant disadvantages. They serve two purposes, some people think they look good, and they allow you to have bigger wheels than stock without screwing up your odometer/speedometer.

Totally depends on your width....

Pretty much irrelevant for 99% of cars on the road. There are very few cars that come with 11+ inch wide rims from the factory which are about the narrowest you'd want to run anything lower than a 40 sidewall on.

 

[ja1484]

The only advantages low profile tires offer are:

1) Aesthetics
2) Allow for a larger wheel, which in turn allows for larger brakes.


Other than that, standard tires are superior in almost every category.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: ja1484

The only advantages low profile tires offer are:

1) Aesthetics
2) Allow for a larger wheel, which in turn allows for larger brakes.


Other than that, standard tires are superior in almost every category.

Those are not the ONLY advantages. Low profile tires have less sidewall flex which translates to a quicker response to steering input and less tendency for the tire to "roll over" under high lateral stress (hard cornering).

You'll also notice that tires with a larger profile tend to steadily and predictably lose lateral grip, where as a low profile tire provides excellent lateral grip up to a point and then it quickly drops off.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Those are not the ONLY advantages. Low profile tires have less sidewall flex which translates to a quicker response to steering input and less tendency for the tire to "roll over" under high lateral stress (hard cornering).

You'll also notice that tires with a larger profile tend to steadily and predictably lose lateral grip, where as a low profile tire provides excellent lateral grip up to a point and then it quickly drops off.

Both true on paper.

Very few drivers are in need of these characteristics however. A lot of people may like to think they do, but not unless they're on the autobahn or driving LeMans.

So, for suburban american males (i.e. AT): Aesthetics and brakes.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: ja1484

The only advantages low profile tires offer are:

1) Aesthetics
2) Allow for a larger wheel, which in turn allows for larger brakes.


Other than that, standard tires are superior in almost every category.

Those are not the ONLY advantages. Low profile tires have less sidewall flex which translates to a quicker response to steering input and less tendency for the tire to "roll over" under high lateral stress (hard cornering).

You'll also notice that tires with a larger profile tend to steadily and predictably lose lateral grip, where as a low profile tire provides excellent lateral grip up to a point and then it quickly drops off.

That's sounds good in theory, but it isn't true in practice. If that were true, why do no racing leagues use low profile tires? You would never ever want to use low profile tires for rally driving. Who in their right mind would want to drive off road on low profile tires? One of the later episodes of Top Gear Australia compared a supercharged Commodore (G8 in US) with optional larger rims and low profile tires vs the standard wheels and rims, and the standard size tires smoked the low profile tires. Part of their conclusion was the myth that low profile tires mean better handling and performance. They don't.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Pariah

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: ja1484

The only advantages low profile tires offer are:

1) Aesthetics
2) Allow for a larger wheel, which in turn allows for larger brakes.


Other than that, standard tires are superior in almost every category.

Those are not the ONLY advantages. Low profile tires have less sidewall flex which translates to a quicker response to steering input and less tendency for the tire to "roll over" under high lateral stress (hard cornering).

You'll also notice that tires with a larger profile tend to steadily and predictably lose lateral grip, where as a low profile tire provides excellent lateral grip up to a point and then it quickly drops off.

That's sounds good in theory, but it isn't true in practice. If that were true, why do no racing leagues use low profile tires? You would never ever want to use low profile tires for rally driving. Who in their right mind would want to drive off road on low profile tires? One of the later episodes of Top Gear Australia compared a supercharged Commodore (G8 in US) with optional larger rims and low profile tires vs the standard wheels and rims, and the standard size tires smoked the low profile tires. Part of their conclusion was the myth that low profile tires mean better handling and performance. They don't.

In reference to your first question, the sidewalls on a Forumula 1 car's tires (or NASCAR for that matter), for example, are insanely stiff compared to OEM tires found on a Corolla with 15 inch wheels.

Of course you wouldn't use low profile tires for rally driving, and if anyone needs an explanation as to why, they don't deserve one.

Most tests don't take into consideration unsprung weight or longitudinal grip, the latter of which a larger profile tire will have more of. I also doubt they bothered to adjust the suspension for the low profile tires either.

By the way... I think these, these, these, and these all are considered low profile tires.

 

[Pariah]

I'm not debating the benefits of stiffer sidewalls. I'm saying that on road cars, using lower profile tires with larger rims will adversely affect performance vs smaller rims and larger tires. The minimal gain in side wall stiffness is more than cancelled out by all the other negative attributes of low profile tires. I mentioned rally car driving because the post before me made reference to it, before he edited his post and changed it to LeMans racing.

Here is the comparison between the 2 holdens on different sized rims:

Top Gear Australia Power Laps

#13 1:12.00 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 20" wheels)

#26 1:15.19 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 22" wheels)

Over 3 second difference, just changing the wheels and tires.

 

[ChaosDivine]

I freely admit that it is for looks. Hard to find a design that I like for the Lincoln LS (5x108 bolt pattern) with a compatible offset at 17" (stock size). Will be going to 18x8.5"

 

[alkalinetaupehat]

Originally posted by: Pariah
I'm not debating the benefits of stiffer sidewalls. I'm saying that on road cars, using lower profile tires with larger rims will adversely affect performance vs smaller rims and larger tires. The minimal gain in side wall stiffness is more than cancelled out by all the other negative attributes of low profile tires. I mentioned rally car driving because the post before me made reference to it, before he edited his post and changed it to LeMans racing.

Here is the comparison between the 2 holdens on different sized rims:

Top Gear Australia Power Laps

#13 1:12.00 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 20" wheels)

#26 1:15.19 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 22" wheels)

Over 3 second difference, just changing the wheels and tires.

I seriously think that if TG tested a Holden with the 20" vs. 14" rims, there would be an advantage for the 20"s.

20" vs. 22" means the test really is looking at the limit of low-profile tires' performance gains rather than proving low/high profile tires as being definitively better. F1 cars do not run nearly as thick profile tires as I do on my car

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: alkalinetaupehat

Originally posted by: Pariah
I'm not debating the benefits of stiffer sidewalls. I'm saying that on road cars, using lower profile tires with larger rims will adversely affect performance vs smaller rims and larger tires. The minimal gain in side wall stiffness is more than cancelled out by all the other negative attributes of low profile tires. I mentioned rally car driving because the post before me made reference to it, before he edited his post and changed it to LeMans racing.

Here is the comparison between the 2 holdens on different sized rims:

Top Gear Australia Power Laps

#13 1:12.00 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 20" wheels)

#26 1:15.19 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 22" wheels)

Over 3 second difference, just changing the wheels and tires.

I seriously think that if TG tested a Holden with the 20" vs. 14" rims, there would be an advantage for the 20"s.

20" vs. 22" means the test really is looking at the limit of low-profile tires' performance gains rather than proving low/high profile tires as being definitively better. F1 cars do not run nearly as thick profile tires as I do on my car

Exactly.

 

[AMCRambler]

Lower profile tires handle better in high speed cornering as there is less sidewall to flex. The ride is harsher though for the exact same reason.

Tires with a larger sidewall will have more rubber to flex and absorb shocks. Flip side is that sidewall will flex when you try and corner hard.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Low profile tires do roll less when you enter a corner. A tall sidewall will fold over considerably. When you get to a point though, you've passed sanity and just gone into the realm of bling bling yo.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by: alkalinetaupehat

Originally posted by: Pariah
I'm not debating the benefits of stiffer sidewalls. I'm saying that on road cars, using lower profile tires with larger rims will adversely affect performance vs smaller rims and larger tires. The minimal gain in side wall stiffness is more than cancelled out by all the other negative attributes of low profile tires. I mentioned rally car driving because the post before me made reference to it, before he edited his post and changed it to LeMans racing.

Here is the comparison between the 2 holdens on different sized rims:

Top Gear Australia Power Laps

#13 1:12.00 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 20" wheels)

#26 1:15.19 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 22" wheels)

Over 3 second difference, just changing the wheels and tires.

I seriously think that if TG tested a Holden with the 20" vs. 14" rims, there would be an advantage for the 20"s.

20" vs. 22" means the test really is looking at the limit of low-profile tires' performance gains rather than proving low/high profile tires as being definitively better. F1 cars do not run nearly as thick profile tires as I do on my car

As with most things in life, there is a balance point. For a car that comes stock with 20" rims, putting 14" rims on it would be asinine. Had they chosen 18" or 19" rims, I bet it would have performed better than the 20" rims. And that's on a smoothly paved runway/track which provides the ideal conditions for lower profile tires.

Just an FYI, Formula 1 uses 13" rims. They're not rolling on bling bling 20's yo. I have no idea what you drive, nor do I care, but the fronts on an F1 car are 55's and the rears are 45's which are not low profile and pretty typical sizes you would see on everyday road cars. Come back when you have something intelligent to add.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Pariah

Originally posted by: alkalinetaupehat

Originally posted by: Pariah
I'm not debating the benefits of stiffer sidewalls. I'm saying that on road cars, using lower profile tires with larger rims will adversely affect performance vs smaller rims and larger tires. The minimal gain in side wall stiffness is more than cancelled out by all the other negative attributes of low profile tires. I mentioned rally car driving because the post before me made reference to it, before he edited his post and changed it to LeMans racing.

Here is the comparison between the 2 holdens on different sized rims:

Top Gear Australia Power Laps

#13 1:12.00 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 20" wheels)

#26 1:15.19 - Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport (with 22" wheels)

Over 3 second difference, just changing the wheels and tires.

I seriously think that if TG tested a Holden with the 20" vs. 14" rims, there would be an advantage for the 20"s.

20" vs. 22" means the test really is looking at the limit of low-profile tires' performance gains rather than proving low/high profile tires as being definitively better. F1 cars do not run nearly as thick profile tires as I do on my car

As with most things in life, there is a balance point. For a car that comes stock with 20" rims, putting 14" rims on it would be asinine. Had they chosen 18" or 19" rims, I bet it would have performed better than the 20" rims. And that's on a smoothly paved runway/track which provides the ideal conditions for lower profile tires.

Just an FYI, Formula 1 uses 13" rims. They're not rolling on bling bling 20's yo. I have no idea what you drive, nor do I care, but the fronts on an F1 car are 55's and the rears are 45's which are not low profile and pretty typical sizes you would see on everyday road cars. Come back when you have something intelligent to add.

You seem to be forgetting that the tires Formula 1 cars use are not comparable to tires for a street car. As I said before, the sidewalls are insanely stiff... a 55 series tire on a F1 car probably deforms less than 35 series street tire under load.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: ja1484

The only advantages low profile tires offer are:

1) Aesthetics
2) Allow for a larger wheel, which in turn allows for larger brakes.


Other than that, standard tires are superior in almost every category.

Those are not the ONLY advantages. Low profile tires have less sidewall flex which translates to a quicker response to steering input and less tendency for the tire to "roll over" under high lateral stress (hard cornering).

You'll also notice that tires with a larger profile tend to steadily and predictably lose lateral grip, where as a low profile tire provides excellent lateral grip up to a point and then it quickly drops off.

They also alter the torque band of the car, and will give you better fuel economy, especially on the highway. It can be the equivalent of giving your car a higher gear. Your car will go the same speed with less RPMs on the motor.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: ja1484

The only advantages low profile tires offer are:

1) Aesthetics
2) Allow for a larger wheel, which in turn allows for larger brakes.


Other than that, standard tires are superior in almost every category.

Those are not the ONLY advantages. Low profile tires have less sidewall flex which translates to a quicker response to steering input and less tendency for the tire to "roll over" under high lateral stress (hard cornering).

You'll also notice that tires with a larger profile tend to steadily and predictably lose lateral grip, where as a low profile tire provides excellent lateral grip up to a point and then it quickly drops off.

They also alter the torque band of the car, and will give you better fuel economy, especially on the highway. It can be the equivalent of giving your car a higher gear. Your car will go the same speed with less RPMs on the motor.

I think everyone was discussing similar tire circumference as in going from 245/50/17 to 285/30/20. If we start comparing say 215/55/16 to 305/35/22, then it throws everything off. Slower acceleration, speedometer errors, odometer errors, wheel hub loading issues, etc.

 

[Pariah]

Top Gear Aus: Ep2 - HSV R8 vs Walkinshaw R8