Low-caste Hindus adopt new faith

[firewall]

Text

Dalit facts (BBC):

-> 167m people, 16.2% of India's population
-> Nearly 60% live in Uttar Pradesh, West Bengal, Bihar, Andhra Pradesh, and Tamil Nadu states
-> The lowest rank in Hindu society, beneath the traditional caste system
-> Expected to perform the most menial jobs, particularly handling cadavers and human and animal waste
-> Physical contact with a Dalit was traditionally considered ritually polluting for other castes
-> Even converts to Christianity and Islam have encountered discrimination from higher-caste converts

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The Dalits arrived by the truckload at a public park in Nagpur for ceremonies, which began with religious leaders giving fiery speeches against the treatment of lower castes.

Reuters reported that dozens of riot policemen had turned out at the sprawling park.

Udit Raj, a Dalit leader, told the BBC that around 2,500 people converted to Christianity and Buddhism.

Joseph D'Souza, the president of the Dalit Freedom Network and a Christian convert, described the conversions as a "celebratory occasion".

"I think it's important to understand that this is a cry for human dignity, it's a cry for human worth," he told the BBC.

He said that Dalits could seek dignity by converting to Christianity, Jainism or Sikhism as well as Buddhism.

Buddhist convert Dhammachari Manidhamma told the BBC that social equality was impossible within Hinduism.

"Buddha's teaching was for the humanity, and Buddha believed in equality.

"And Hindu religion, Hindu teaching is nothing but inequality.

It's shameful for this to happen in a country like India.

The measures/laws to stop conversions are reprehensible:

Several states governed by the Hindu nationalist party, the BJP, have introduced laws to make such conversions more difficult.

The states of Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Tamil Nadu have all passed laws restricting conversions.

Gujarat has reclassified Buddhism and Jainism as branches of the Hindu religion, in an attempt to prevent conversions away from Hinduism eroding the BJP's bedrock support.

Hinduism teaches that most humans were created from parts of the body of the divinity Purusha.

According to which body parts they were created from, humans fall into four basic castes which define their social standing, who they can marry, and what jobs they can do.

But Dalits fall outside this system and are traditionally prevented from doing all but the most menial jobs or even drinking from the same water sources as other castes.

People who support these laws and acts of discrimination really don't deserve to be called human beings.

I guess ground realities are very much different from the pictures painted by the media. Indians involved in this discrimination really need to get their act straightened up.

 

[magomago]

Yeah everytime you hear of some injustice happening to the low caste Hindus, a string of Christian and Muslim converts follow. I remember of something similar posted a year go, but I can never find anything using the search Fusetalk search suX

With that said though I'm sure the conversion is a protest of of the social issues that are occuring rather than an honest to god change. You can clearly see this when they say,
"I think it's important to understand that this is a cry for human dignity, it's a cry for human worth," he told the BBC.
It should be a message to Indian culture about the caste system...although I don't want to say too much since I don't know much about the caste system beyond what you hear...and generally what we hear "around" is 99% BS

 

[sandorski]

Secualr Governments 4tw!

Religion and Politics should not mix.

 

[Paddington]

Before you start ranting about the Hindu caste system, there are a few facts that you should acknowledge.

The first is that India has had the most generous affirmitive action program in the history of the world for the past 50 years, which flat out gives a huge quota to lower caste in jobs, eduction, and legislative seats. These reservations are on the order of 50-80%. Do you ever wonder why there are so many Indians that live in the U.S., England, and elsewhere? A disproportionately large number of these Indians are upper caste Hindus, who are getting out of the country because there are so *few* college seats, jobs, etc. that they are eligible for these days. And white people in Michigan were complaining when U-M was letting in 5% blacks. :roll: You should see what Indian affirmitive action is like. There is now talk in the Indian parliament of extending fixed quota reservations for lower caste Hindus (again, on the order of 50-80%) to all private sector jobs.

The other is that in this day and age the caste system in India has little to do with Hinduism, and almost everything to do with privelages. There are Muslims and Christians living in India who proclaim their status as "lower caste". Google this if you don't believe me. Lower caste Hindus who convert to Christianity almost always maintain their dual status as "lower caste" (gee, I thought there was no caste system in Christianity?) even after they convert so that they can take advantage of affirmitive action privelages.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Paddington
Before you start ranting about the Hindu caste system, there are a few facts that you should acknowledge.

The first is that India has had the most generous affirmitive action program in the history of the world for the past 50 years, which flat out gives a huge quota to lower caste in jobs, eduction, and legislative seats. These reservations are on the order of 50-80%. Do you ever wonder why there are so many Indians that live in the U.S., England, and elsewhere? A disproportionately large number of these Indians are upper caste Hindus, who are getting out of the country because there are so *few* college seats, jobs, etc. that they are eligible for these days. And white people in Michigan were complaining when U-M was letting in 5% blacks. :roll: You should see what Indian affirmitive action is like.

The other is that in this day and age the caste system in India has little to do with Hinduism, and almost everything to do with privelages. There are Muslims and Christians living in India who proclaim their status as "lower caste". Google this if you don't believe me. Lower caste Hindus who convert to Christianity almost always maintain their dual status as "lower caste" (gee, I thought there was no caste system in Christianity?) even after they convert so that they can take advantage of affirmitive action privelages.

Things like that tend to become so ingrained in Society that the original reason for them gets lost. It just becomes "the way things are". Christianity and Islam don't have Caste systems, but as you point out Indian Converts certainly recognize that there are advantages to being in a Caste, so they are reluctant to turn their backs on it.

 

[tvarad]

This is basically power-politics Indian style and about par for the course. In the middle of all of this I can bet there are a couple of up and coming politicians who are looking for free publicity.

As long as they don't convert to a retrograde religion like islam, more power to them.

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: Paddington
Before you start ranting about the Hindu caste system, there are a few facts that you should acknowledge.

The first is that India has had the most generous affirmitive action program in the history of the world for the past 50 years, which flat out gives a huge quota to lower caste in jobs, eduction, and legislative seats. These reservations are on the order of 50-80%. Do you ever wonder why there are so many Indians that live in the U.S., England, and elsewhere? A disproportionately large number of these Indians are upper caste Hindus, who are getting out of the country because there are so *few* college seats, jobs, etc. that they are eligible for these days. And white people in Michigan were complaining when U-M was letting in 5% blacks. :roll: You should see what Indian affirmitive action is like. There is now talk in the Indian parliament of extending fixed quota reservations for lower caste Hindus (again, on the order of 50-80%) to all private sector jobs.

Touchy much?

This affirmitive action stuff was first implemented in 1918 in Mysore. It's not exclusive to India, post-independence . Upon petition from the Muslim community, the British government at the time made provisions in the Government of India acts of 1909 and 1919 granting Muslims share in the administration and other facilities.

Text

That negates your statement that it has been there for the past 50 years. It has been there for a much longer time. The current goernment in India is just carrying on those policies which is a good thing. However, they have not yielded much results if so much discrimination is still there.

Secondly, your claim that these reservations are in the order of 50-80% is exaggerated.

Text

In 2006, the UPA government promised to implement 27% reservation for OBCs in institutes of higher education (twenty central universities, the IITs, IIMs and AIIMS) after 2006 Assembly elections. This, if implemented, would reduce the seats for the general section of the population to less than 50.5%

The key words here are if implemented. 27% reservation doesn't seems like 50-80% reservation. :roll: If these reservations haven't worked from the time India gained independence (1945 or maybe 1949?), how can you say they will work now or in the future?

Where are you getting the 'disproportionally large number of upper caste Indians' in US/Britain stuff? Any credible source?

You are getting hot and bothered over this and to some extent defending something which is wrong. There is nothing wrong about admitting something which is wrong.

Even if the Indian government is doing what you say, there is little to show for it on the ground. Also, society doesn't necessarily follows government policies to the dot.

 

[Paddington]

Ah yes, someone who has never been to India lecturing me on how things are in a country he has never been to. :roll:

That negates your statement that it has been there for the past 50 years. It has been there for a much longer time.

Yeah so what? You nitpicked a little point. In fact you added to my main point that India has had affirmitive action for a very long time.

The current goernment in India is just carrying on those policies which is a good thing. However, they have not yielded much results if so much discrimination is still there.

Or more likely, those groups that have guaranteed seats and jobs are not willing to give them up.

n 2006, the UPA government promised to implement 27% reservation for OBCs in institutes of higher education (twenty central universities, the IITs, IIMs and AIIMS) after 2006 Assembly elections. This, if implemented, would reduce the seats for the general section of the population to less than 50.5%

The 27% reservation is an extension for OBC's or "Other Backward Castes", there are other categories of "backward castes" such as "Schedules Castes" and "Scheduled Tribes", and altogether these reservations for lower caste Hindus add up to about 50%, for national government jobs and college seats. The link you posted even says that after they implement this, the general category of seats is going to fall to about 50%. You contradicted yourself with your own link. :roll:

There are also reservations at the state and local level in India, which in some places like Tamil Nadu are pushing 70-80%.

Nice try though.

You are getting hot and bothered over this and to some extent defending something which is wrong. There is nothing wrong about admitting something which is wrong.

Is that a fact, white man? Maybe you should go make amends for slavery, colonialism, and a whole host of other atrocities before you start lecturing us on the alleged evils of our ancestors. And while your at it, maybe you should give 80% fixed quota reservations to blacks and Hispanics in all college seats, legislative seats, and government jobs in America. Lead by example, or STFU.

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: Paddington
Yeah so what? You nitpicked a little point. In fact you added to my pain point that India has had affirmitive action for a very long time.

Didn't knew you had a pain point... :roll:

Read my reply again. If you count all this time, these policies haven't born any fruit for nearly a century (~85 years), and hence have been useless.

Or more likely, those groups that have guaranteed seats and jobs are not willing to give them up.

So the government is giving incentives when they know what really is happening? How.. intelligent! No wonder discrimination still exists to this extent.

The link you posted even says that after they implement this, the general category of seats is going to fall to about 50%. You contradicted yourself with your own link. :roll:

You need some good reading comprehension. My quote clearly had if implemented in it. The article from which I took the quoted part didn't state anywhere that it has been implemented.

Is that a fact, white man? ...

Heh... you bothered? Your pettiness is hardly going to affect me so carry on with your whining.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: Paddington
Ah yes, someone who has never been to India lecturing me on how things are in a country he has never been to. :roll:

That negates your statement that it has been there for the past 50 years. It has been there for a much longer time.

Yeah so what? You nitpicked a little point. In fact you added to my main point that India has had affirmitive action for a very long time.

The current goernment in India is just carrying on those policies which is a good thing. However, they have not yielded much results if so much discrimination is still there.

Or more likely, those groups that have guaranteed seats and jobs are not willing to give them up.

n 2006, the UPA government promised to implement 27% reservation for OBCs in institutes of higher education (twenty central universities, the IITs, IIMs and AIIMS) after 2006 Assembly elections. This, if implemented, would reduce the seats for the general section of the population to less than 50.5%

The 27% reservation is an extension for OBC's or "Other Backward Castes", there are other categories of "backward castes" such as "Schedules Castes" and "Scheduled Tribes", and altogether these reservations for lower caste Hindus add up to about 50%, for national government jobs and college seats. The link you posted even says that after they implement this, the general category of seats is going to fall to about 50%. You contradicted yourself with your own link. :roll:

There are also reservations at the state and local level in India, which in some places like Tamil Nadu are pushing 70-80%.

Nice try though.

You are getting hot and bothered over this and to some extent defending something which is wrong. There is nothing wrong about admitting something which is wrong.

Is that a fact, white man? Maybe you should go make amends for slavery, colonialism, and a whole host of other atrocities before you start lecturing us on the alleged evils of our ancestors. And while your at it, maybe you should give 80% fixed quota reservations to blacks and Hispanics in all college seats, legislative seats, and government jobs in America. Lead by example, or STFU.

Good god you sound like a WASP.

 

[athithi]

LOL Hinduism and India have been defeated for ever and ever and ever on ATPN :thumbsup:

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: athithi
LOL Hinduism and India have been defeated for ever and ever and ever on ATPN :thumbsup:

:roll:

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: firewall

Originally posted by: athithi
LOL Hinduism and India have been defeated for ever and ever and ever on ATPN :thumbsup:

:roll:

ejackly!