Lots of confusion / chips / chipsets

[gt3911]

Hi all!

I?ve decided that I really need to pick some of your brains!!

Let me start from the beginning. My current rig is: (ready??)
AMD Athlon XP 3200+ (2200mhz)
Abit NF7-S v2.0
2gig OCZ PC3200
512mb GeForce 6800 GS/XT AGP

That?s enough of an introduction. I got to a point in my PC life where it became far to expensive to move on. New CPU = new socket type, results in, new mobo, and the move to PCI-e for gfx and new ram too. I got stuck at a dead end, and have put off the upgrade for years.

I?m now at a point where I?ve got together some cash and really want to get things rolling.

My plan started out that I wanted the most ?future proof? system I can get, to allow me to be able to upgrade the weaker components that will go into the original build.

But I keep hitting brick walls, with big stop flags. As a result I?m getting no where fast ? apart from lots of confusion!

My plan was to get the Asus Striker II Extreme. To me, a pricey board that I thought would be capable for lots of future expansion.

And then? I hit the first brick wall. Gary key, 790i data corruption ? some of the comments made on this post scared the crap out of me!!

Things have moved on a lot since my rig, and I?m very much in the dark on a lot of this! Does anyone here have any faith at all in the 790i? if not? what is the intel chipset I?m best to look at?

I was looking into the Q9300 vs Q6600 / Q6700 as my chip of choice. This alone has been quite the mouthful to chew.. and then, as I continue, I discover than I could possibly do better on a dual core as apps / games will utilise the chip better (today) as the quads arnt presenting enough tangible benefits in the real world. Which put something like the E8500 into my equation, and figured, I?ll chuck a nice quad in it maybe this time next year instead.

And then?. I read the words??Nehalem? Nehalem? *Time for more reading up!! * Oh dear!!! 1366pin? If the 790i didn?t scare me the fact that a new Socket does! I?m chewing on that problem now!!

The Nehalem is a long way away, I really need to experience games again, I do manage to game on what I?m on now? but it struggles. And I?m tired of it now.

Can anyone give me any advice ? I feel a bit lost now. Especially on the 790 topic and how Nehalem will change the world?. Will this bring 775 developments to a halt?
Or maybe?. I could run one of the 4 chips listed above, and when people are jumping on Nehalem?s I can pickup a Q9550 or even an ?extreme? chip MUCH cheaper, which should have enough grunt to carry me into the future at least for a while??

Any comments will be hugely appreciated, just wanting to have a chat about things really?

 

[modoheo]

The bad news: there's really no such thing as "future-proofing" beyond a couple years. The good news: for 1000 bucks or so, you can build a very high-performance, high-value system every two years and always stay up-to-date, usually reusing some of your previous parts (case, power supply, somtimes motherboard/hard drive).

Check out these two stickied threads in this forum, then get back to us:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2194271&enterthread=y
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2090214&enterthread=y

 

[gt3911]

Hey Modoheo...

I was just reading your attention sys builders post. What a great read!! thank you very much.

I'm not wanting to go for SLI - so, After reading your post, it seems as though I should give up on the 790i.

Your points about future proofing do make alot of sense.

I would like to ask about one possibility of making the board more future proof - I know that if you was to build a PC for today, the DDR2 is still a clear winner....

But i'm thinking that I should buy a DDR3 capable motherboard, Settle with 2gig at a nice price, Ie for example (just a quick find) (2x1GB) CorsairTwinX XMS3, DDR3 PC3-12800 (1600),240 Pin, Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 9-9-9-24, DHX @ £114 seems OKAY. And then - this time next year I'll have a good upgrade option, to buy some DDR3 that will be worth its money / performance gain?

To answer the questions in the other link,

The PC will be used for gaming and everyday use.
My budget cant exceed £1200
I'm in England. And will spend a nice amount of time hunting for the cheapest places!
I'll only be bringing over the 750gig HD from this machine, speakers, monitor, mouse keyboard run via a KVM, so they'll all not be in the budget.
I'd like to overclock it slightly, i've read bits about it, but it does kinda scare me!
I'd like this system before September.

As for brand preferences, i'm going for an nvidia GPU... I think I'm just going to settle with a 8800 - although i'm aware that I could squeeze this into my budget Here but I might be better off with a 128 core 9800 or settle with a GTS.

I'm also settled on the power to be provided from this unit. here

It looks like a dual core could be my answer - change it for a quad next year...?

 

[modoheo]

Glad you liked the thread.

The problem with DDR3 is that there is only a tiny performance gain currently, and it's much more expensive and requires a much more expensive motherboard.

I don't think trying to ensure upgradability is a good strategy right now, since Nehalem will force you to upgrade your motherboard the next time you want to significantly increase the performance of your system. By then, DDR3/tri-channel RAM will also probably be standard and you'll want to upgrade that too. I'm sure the latest and greatest GPU's will probably tempt you by then too.

If I were you, I'd build a p35 or p45 motherboard-based system with a good dual core Core2 CPU, DDR2 800 RAM, and a single mid-to-high end GPU. That'll be economical and let you quite happily play all games at high-to-max settings for the next couple years. By then, Nehalem will be mainstream, and you can rebuild accordingly.

 

[gt3911]

Thanks again Modoheo.

I very much want to agree with you....

But please humor me for a moment.

If i'm now to give up on the striker, I'm now looking at the Asus P5Q Deluxe. £121.95... Do you have any complaints to raise about this board? Now heres there thing.... I can buy, for £10 more a P5Q3 Deluxe

I know the prices now go up more when we look at the RAM. Especially compared to 800mhz, Curious as to why you didnt suggest 1066?

But my point is, the socket changes and what not that i've already experienced the bad taste of hasnt allowed me to upgrade in 'a couple of years' I cant say that i'll be able to do so in another couple of year take the Nehalem route... But I will be able to upgrade what I have.

If i pic DDR2 today, in 1 year i'll have no where to luck, apart from a new board to take DDR3, and it gets prices, and complicated.

But, If I go for a DDR3 board, settle with some OKAY Ram, at maybe... 1333mhz, In a year I could maybe drop in 4gb @ 2000mhz, as the wave of Tri channel will make this alot cheaper by then.

I cant guarantee a new build in a couple of years. but I can account for component upgrades that will allow me to extend them couple of years a bit further, and I feel that opening the DDR3 door will give me more future reach?

From what we?re looking ? I could drop in a new gpu to grab some gains further down the road, if I go dual core I could also drop in a good quad core when the Nehalem destroys their price tags, but I?m gonna be stuck with a DDR2 bottle neck.. which i could avoid by going for DDR3 today....

 

[Blain]

Maybe you could just IM... :roll:

 

[DSF]

First, separate Nehalem from the computer you're about to build in your mind. Moving your computer over to a Nehalem platform would require upgrading not only the CPU, but the motherboard and RAM as well. That's not so much an upgrade as it is a rebuild, since you may as well bump up the graphics card and hard drive at that point too.

If you're going to build a computer in the next couple months, forget Nehalem and DDR3 completely for the time being.

It's important to recognize that you're convincing yourself of a performance gain that isn't there. The performance difference between a system running DDR2-667 and DDR2-1066 is a few percentage points at best. It's not noticeable in everyday use. The same is true even moving from DDR2-667 to fast DDR3. Upgrading RAM speed alone simply isn't going to have the impact you think it will.

I will admit that DDR3 is much cheaper than it was a couple months ago, but I still don't think it's justified.

As far as your motherboard, your needs sound pretty basic in terms of motherboard features, so I'm not sure you really need to drop the dough on the Deluxe. The P5Q or P5Q Pro would probably be plenty for your needs, and save you 30-40 quid.

In terms of graphics, the 8800 series receives stiff competition from ATI's aggressively priced HD4850, so I would look into that option as well.

Edit: Oh, and the question of a processor. I would go with the E8400 for now. If you don't plan to overclock it beyond 3.6GHz, then DDR2-800 is all you need. If you want to push it farther than that, go for DDR2-1000. The E8500's price is not justified considering it offers only a 166MHz boost over the E8400, and you're overclocking anyway.

 

[gt3911]

Hey DSF,

Yep, I totally agree with your comment on the Nehalem ? I was just saying how the discovery of this threw a huge curve ball at any plan of even attempting ?future proof?

I find your comments to DDR3 very interesting. You don?t think that 1 year from now I could gain an advantage within DDR3 over DDR2? I didn?t expect this at all. I was quite comfortable that if I was to build a PC for ?today? to never be opened up again DDR2 is the choice, but I figured with future upgrade potential in mind going DDR3 now might have been the way to go. So even the 2000mhz stuff shows no real gain to performance Vs 800? I know that I cant afford 2000mhz, but I?d like to bet it?ll be well within my reach in 09?

Surprised also that about the favour towards a duo. I can fit a Q9300 into my budget?. Or at least a Q6700, I figured that even if some older apps arnt fully leaning towards the quads newer apps/games will do, so it will make gaming more comfortable in the next years on a quad?

I think there are some things on the Deluxe that I like that are missing / inferior than the Pro?. infact I?ve actually been browsing around the Maximus II formula!

Although things like CPU level up sound a bit? scary!!

Please don?t think I?m saying your suggestions are wrong I?m very grateful for your input.

I?m just very keen to squeeze as much out of the coins as I can. I don?t mind spending them, I?ve finally saved enough to spend them on this purpose, but of course if something cheaper is infact better than brilliant!! You seem very keen on saving my money DSF!!

Lol I came into this thinking, Striker II, quad cores, DDR3, and it seems its really, P5Q, DDR2, Dual Core!! This feels strange to me!!

 

[modoheo]

Since there's really no way to truly 'future-proof' your system, it just doesn't make much sense to blow a tremendous amount of money on a system. No matter how much you spend today, your system will still be underperforming by two years from now. Also, no matter how much above about 1200 dollars you spend, you won't increase your performance by more than (maybe) 10% overall.

That's why most people around here recommend systems that result in high-performance for a mid-range price. If you believe the first paragraph above, performance/dollar is where it's at.

Build yourself a 600 quid machine today, save the other half of your money and add a bit to it each month, and you'll have plenty for a new build two years from now or whenever there are games/apps that your system becomes too obsolete to run properly.

 

[DSF]

Originally posted by: gt3911
I find your comments to DDR3 very interesting. You don?t think that 1 year from now I could gain an advantage within DDR3 over DDR2?

There's very little difference in the way of real-world performance between DDR2 and DDR3. That's just the way it is with current Intel systems.

Originally posted by: gt3911
Surprised also that about the favour towards a duo. I can fit a Q9300 into my budget?. Or at least a Q6700, I figured that even if some older apps arnt fully leaning towards the quads newer apps/games will do, so it will make gaming more comfortable in the next years on a quad?

Some newer games are moving to quad core support, but most aren't. Even in games that support multiple cores, the performance doesn't scale linearly. In other words, a quad core running at 2.4 GHz is not twice as fast in games as a dual core running at 2.4 GHz. If you were building a system two years from now quad core would be the way to go, but in my humble opinion that isn't the case right now.

Originally posted by: gt3911
I think there are some things on the Deluxe that I like that are missing / inferior than the Pro?. infact I?ve actually been browsing around the Maximus II formula!

Like what? If you can be specific about what you're looking for in a motherboard, you might find what that has all the features you need and none that you don't at the right price.

Originally posted by: gt3911
You seem very keen on saving my money DSF!!

I don't like spending more than I have to, and I keep that mentality with me when I make recommendations for other people unless the specifically ask for the best of the best regardless of cost.

 

[Blain]

Originally posted by: gt3911

This feels strange to me!!

You'll get used to it :laugh:

 

[gt3911]

Honestly, I enjoy what your both saying, it makes a refreshing change than how X processor has 50mhz more and is sooooo much better, anything other than X is rubbish!

For the sake of my stubbornness, and reluctance to do upgrades, could you entertain me from your current line of thought? Considering you both seem to look at the next 2 years? I have indeed been treating my beautiful Athlon with love and care for the last 4 years, and its not my only box! Can we try and rub out crystal balls and look into 2012, Heres me, back in the stonage with my mid range 2008 built PC, but probably with much better GFX than the original build.. Do I want to be on a E8400 or will I wish I went for that Q9300?.?

I?m honestly at the mindset right now that I don?t feel as though I?ll be gaming in another 4 years, and wont be willing to spend this amount of money on a system again, as I?ll only need a very basic / general ? none gaming system. Maybe the very odd, occasional play. My gaming today is becoming limited, as I have a muscular condition and to much first person shootering destroys my hands!! I decided I?m 22, and want to enjoy these games that my pc complains about playing ? I?m gonna pull my finger out and make it happen!! As for a future system, I?m quite sure my needs will be very different. So, I?m aiming for a prolonged period out of this mid ranger than the typical 2yr life.

 

[Blain]

Buy a nice HP for under £1200 and be done with it.

 

[gt3911]

Sorry DSF didnt mean ti ignore the Motherboard feature comment.

P5Q Deluxe Vs P5Q
Likes (deluxe)
16 phase VRM
Stack cool 2.
Heat pipe
HD Audio + optical

Not needed, cross fire.

Deluxe vs Maximus II
CPU level up - sounds cool and easy!! not sure how well it works!
Pin Fin
X-Fi xtreme fidelity.
AI Nos... Sounds nice...

As I previously mentioned i'd had my heart set on the 790i striker II - this seems to be the intel comparison board.

Maybe a bit of a novality board, useless features? I'm attracted to it though... But i'm sure i can live without it.

and simply the P5Q3 deluxe if DDR3 required.

 

[DSF]

Meh, the CPU Level Up is just paying them for overclocking you can easily do yourself, and you can probably do a better job.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Forget about DDR3. It will never help you with a socket 775 system, and DDR3 you buy now costs twice as much as DDR2. Just get 4 GB of cheap DDR2-800 and stop thinking about it. Don't pay extra for a motherboard that allows for DDR3 because you will never buy it.

So, P5Q Pro is all you need, at about $150 US.

E8400 for the CPU. Quad is useless for games, and 3.0 GHz dual is fast enough to pair up with a fast video card.

ATI 4870 or nv GTX 260 for the video card, but only get the 260 if you can get it for about the same price as the 4870 since the 260 is a little slower.

Or take the $200 you were going to throw away on future proofing and move up to a GTX 280, if you can find one for $400 - 450 US. It's way overpriced but the extra speed is much more useful than DDR 3 or a £200 motherboard with racing stripes and a spoiler.

 

[gt3911]

Thats cool, Again thanks alot fo the comments.

I'm amazed how useless DDR3 is!! I thought it was mainly a reason to avoid based on pirce... not based on its sheer lack of performance gain.

Ok, I know you said P5Q Pro, But i'd take the Deluxe over it any day for the optical sound.

But fair point about the Maximus and its racing striped!

Probably be no point in me owning 4gb as i'm currntly only equpied with XP and Vista in 32bit versions, so i'm really looking at 2 or 3gb.

The decesion to go Dual, seems a good argument, however.. DSF stated that he feels quad would be the way to go, based on more apps useing its performance better... But... Remember, that i plan on dragging the life of this new rig past two years. I dont want to regret not buying the Q9300.... Do you guys honestly feel that the dual will still be a better option for me to have in my rig in 2010?

I suppose, my board, would probably allow me to drop a nicer quad core in it in 2010 if i wanted too... Especially if the nehalem has nailed their prices, I could go Quad Late 2009? Although I'm keeping in mind the new 45nm chips Intel will release for Q3, one of them 9x multiplier. stock speed @ 9x333.... 9x400 would be nice!!!

I might be at a point now where I should wait for Q3 to arrive.....? July / September could have a bit of a significant shake up to my options??

 

[DSF]

Originally posted by: gt3911
Probably be no point in me owning 4gb as i'm currntly only equpied with XP and Vista in 32bit versions, so i'm really looking at 2 or 3gb.

The decesion to go Dual, seems a good argument, however.. DSF stated that he feels quad would be the way to go, based on more apps useing its performance better... But... Remember, that i plan on dragging the life of this new rig past two years. I dont want to regret not buying the Q9300.... Do you guys honestly feel that the dual will still be a better option for me to have in my rig in 2010?

I suppose, my board, would probably allow me to drop a nicer quad core in it in 2010 if i wanted too... Especially if the nehalem has nailed their prices, I could go Quad Late 2009? Although I'm keeping in mind the new 45nm chips Intel will release for Q3, one of them 9x multiplier. stock speed @ 9x333.... 9x400 would be nice!!!

I might be at a point now where I should wait for Q3 to arrive.....? July / September could have a bit of a significant shake up to my options??

As cheap as RAM is, I would suggest getting 4GB. Sure, a 32-bit OS won't recognize all of it, but it will see most of it, and using two DIMMs puts less stress on your northbridge than four.

Would dual be a better option than quad in 2010? I don't know, it's tough to say. A lot of people would say no. Would it still be good enough to play any game you wanted to? I think I can say yes with a pretty good degree of confidence.

If you feel like you can wait, I suppose there's no reason not to, but there's always something better around the corner.

 

[gt3911]

Great thanks!

I suppose, its relatively safe to say if I went for a dual today... and I feel like the cpu is holding me back, I would be able to upgrade to whatever quads are on offer, say.. late 2009... and probably todays dual prices. Although out of my reach today, Dropping in... say a Q9550 could give my rig a new wake of life for a while.....

Would a bottom 280 give me the edge i'm looking for?
Ie....
1gb asus GTX280
vs
896 bfg 260

Now i've saved some pennys on the motherboard and cpu, should I stretch further on the GPU, or are we again looking at a larger increase in price for small benefits?

 

[DSF]

When it comes to buying top of the line computer components, there's always a large increase in price for small benefit.

This is AnandTech's own review of the new ATI cards, comparing them to current offerings across the board in a number of tests:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3341&p=13

I would suggest looking at other benchmarks as well, because reviews don't always find exactly the same thing, owing to different motherboards, CPUs, etc., and then make your own decision as far as what you're willing to pay for.