Looks like The Titanic killed a few more people

[Zorba]

I feel like it needs to be said, yet again. It's structurally harder to design a submarine than a spaceship.

Define structurally harder. There is more delta pressure, but a lot less weight concern, a lot less cycling, a lot less radiation, a lot less vibration, etc. I'll tell you it is much harder to design an aircraft fuselage rated for a Delta-P of 9 psi than a hydraulic tube rated for 10,000 psi, I've been involved in both. Some materials on aircraft have yield stresses of 400,000 psi, while common structural steel has a yield of ~40,000 psi.

Load does not necessarily translate into stresses. I can design a hydraulic tube with 0.032" thick walls using high strength steel, or I could design it with schedule 80 steel pipe with 0.18" thick walls, they'd have the exact same load, but the stress in the thin wall tube would be significantly higher.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Define structurally harder. There is more delta pressure, but a lot less weight concern, a lot less cycling, a lot less radiation, a lot less vibration, etc. I'll tell you it is much harder to design an aircraft fuselage rated for a Delta-P of 9 psi than a hydraulic tube rated for 10,000 psi, I've been involved in both. Some materials on aircraft have yield stresses of 400,000 psi, while common structural steel has a yield of ~40,000 psi.

Load does not necessarily translate into stresses. I can design a hydraulic tube with 0.032" thick walls using high strength steel, or I could design it with schedule 80 steel pipe with 0.18" thick walls, they'd have the exact same load, but the stress in the thin wall tube would be significantly higher.

Fair, but counterpoint: One rich idiot built a tube that killed a half dozen people, another rich idiot built a tube that's had a pretty damned good record for a long while. Maybe it has to do with the income potential of a rocket vs a sub, but I'd trust a Musk rocket over this abomination, even before the accident.

 

[Zorba]

Fair, but counterpoint: One rich idiot built a tube that killed a half dozen people, another rich idiot built a tube that's had a pretty damned good record for a long while. Maybe it has to do with the income potential of a rocket vs a sub, but I'd trust a Musk rocket over this abomination, even before the accident.

Musk had a very real company with a lot of very real and talented engineers. They also blew up a lot of rockets getting to where they are.

Counter point would be the Space Shuttle vs Alvin. I guarentee the space shuttle had far more engineers, testing, QA, review, etc than Alvin and still lost 2 vehicles while Alvin is still alive and kicking.

 

[Brovane]

Fair, but counterpoint: One rich idiot built a tube that killed a half dozen people, another rich idiot built a tube that's had a pretty damned good record for a long while. Maybe it has to do with the income potential of a rocket vs a sub, but I'd trust a Musk rocket over this abomination, even before the accident.

Musk rocket(Falcon-9) has been independently peer reviewed by people outside of SpaceX. NASA and US Space Force have reviewed the rocket design, production techniques and certified it for flying the highest value payloads. NASA and US Space Force have sent people to SpaceX to review production techniques. I think the EELV certification from US Space Force to carry National Defense Payloads cost the US government $100M+. The Crew Dragon capsule itself has been independently reviewed and certified by NASA for carrying US astronauts. This independent review of not only the design but production techniques is important. Both NASA and USSF have called out SpaceX previously for what they consider production quality control issues. NASA and USSF are given data from SpaceX for any anomaly on launches even if it doesn't impact the success of the launch. As far as I can figure out, no 3rd party was reviewing the design of the Titan Submersible, nobody reviewed how the sub was built and nobody outside of the company was reviewing issues that came up during usage of the sub. The submersible was a accident waiting to happen.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Musk rocket(Falcon-9) has been independently peer reviewed by people outside of SpaceX. NASA and US Space Force have reviewed the rocket design, production techniques and certified it for flying the highest value payloads. NASA and US Space Force have sent people to SpaceX to review production techniques. I think the EELV certification from US Space Force to carry National Defense Payloads cost the US government $100M+. The Crew Dragon capsule itself has been independently reviewed and certified by NASA for carrying US astronauts. This independent review of not only the design but production techniques is important. Both NASA and USSF have called out SpaceX previously for what they consider production quality control issues. NASA and USSF are given data from SpaceX for any anomaly on launches even if it doesn't impact the success of the launch. As far as I can figure out, no 3rd party was reviewing the design of the Titan Submersible, nobody reviewed how the sub was built and nobody outside of the company was reviewing issues that came up during usage of the sub. The submersible was a accident waiting to happen.

And all those things appear to be required before you start thinking about stuffing people inside it. Not so for an underwater tube apparently.

 

[pmv]

And all those things appear to be required before you start thinking about stuffing people inside it. Not so for an underwater tube apparently.

Not when it's in international waters. Plus the main point seems to be that they were taking paying customers (ludicrously renamed "mission specialists"), if Mr Rush had gone down there on his own and zip archived himself one could argue it was his prerogative.

Just read that "OceanGate is suspending all exploration and commercial operations". News to me that they had any operations left to suspend.

 

[Brovane]

And all those things appear to be required before you start thinking about stuffing people inside it. Not so for an underwater tube apparently.

Yes, and No. In 2004 Congress imposed a regulations moratorium on commercial spaceflight regulations by the FAA and that currently has been extended through 2023. People engage in human spaceflight through "informed consent". Sounds kind of like, "OceanGate"? As far as I know, nobody has done a independent review and certification of either Blue Origins New Shepard Capsule or Virgin Galactic's SpaceShip Two for carrying people into space. The closest that anything came for a independent review is when VSS Enterprise crashed during testing and killed the pilot. The FAA reviewed the design and made some recommendations that I believe Virgin Galactic followed. However most of FAA's review ability is focused on the launch into space and keeping the public safe from the launch vehicle, not the people inside those vehicles if carrying crew. The only reason Crew Dragon is certified is because it carries NASA astronauts and that is NASA certification not FAA certification. The FAA has the ability to review the design for safety of the public for the Falcon-9 and has to give SpaceX a launch license for it's launches. However the FAA has no jurisdiction over how safe crew Dragon is for carrying people. It is the same thing for Starship, FAA has jurisdiction over the launch vehicle systems but not over crew systems. FAA also has no jurisdiction over US government launches.

 

[sportage]

So is it unanimous now? That no one survived? Can we at least agree on that?

 

[Vic]

Yes, and No. In 2004 Congress imposed a regulations moratorium on commercial spaceflight regulations by the FAA and that currently has been extended through 2023. People engage in human spaceflight through "informed consent". Sounds kind of like, "OceanGate"? As far as I know, nobody has done a independent review and certification of either Blue Origins New Shepard Capsule or Virgin Galactic's SpaceShip Two for carrying people into space. The closest that anything came for a independent review is when VSS Enterprise crashed during testing and killed the pilot. The FAA reviewed the design and made some recommendations that I believe Virgin Galactic followed. However most of FAA's review ability is focused on the launch into space and keeping the public safe from the launch vehicle, not the people inside those vehicles if carrying crew. The only reason Crew Dragon is certified is because it carries NASA astronauts and that is NASA certification not FAA certification. The FAA has the ability to review the design for safety of the public for the Falcon-9 and has to give SpaceX a launch license for it's launches. However the FAA has no jurisdiction over how safe crew Dragon is for carrying people. It is the same thing for Starship, FAA has jurisdiction over the launch vehicle systems but not over crew systems. FAA also has no jurisdiction over US government launches.

Govts have a proven track record of being able to successfully obtain jurisdiction once people start dying.

 

[Brovane]

Govts have a proven track record of being able to successfully obtain jurisdiction once people start dying.

Yup, it will take until their is a serious mishap that kills a crew for private commercial spaceflight. Already somebody died on SpaceShip two but that was just one of the pilots so that has kind of been ignored.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSS_Enterprise_crash

 

[pmv]

Yes, most business jets use "metal bond" which is literally glueing metal together. 787, 777x have carbon fiber wings. Structural panels forever have used honeycomb glued to panels, etc.

I gather that insofar as he knew anything about engineering, Rush's knowledge was in the aeronautical field. Seems that he built a sub as if it were an aircraft, while rejecting the advice of everyone who understood those were two very different domains.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I gather that insofar as he knew anything about engineering, Rush's knowledge was in the aeronautical field. Seems that he built a sub as if it were an aircraft, while rejecting the advice of everyone who understood those were two very different domains.

Failure mode is all speculation for now, so we don't know it had anything to do with the using adhesive to secure Titanium rings.

The craft had something like 20 dives to this depth, so it is some kind of fatigue mechanism, so it is possible that you could build a safe DSV with similar construction methods, if it was just done with better attention detail, safety margins, and had some kind of inspection system to search for flaws after each dive.

 

[Greenman]

yep, you are a Dick. Easy enough to put on ignore. enjoy your ignorance my misogynistic little buddy 👍

It seems like you don't know what misogyny is, as half of this statement doesn't pertain to anything said.

 

[APU_Fusion]

It seems like you don't know what misogyny is, as half of this statement doesn't pertain to anything said.

Nope. he replied to another poster that mentioned women in submarines with statement they ruined submarine culture. Very clear what he stated and was referring to women. It seems clear you can’t understand context and implication.

 

[Brovane]

This is what happens when you build a submersible and don't cut corners.

The Making of the Deep Submergence Vehicle (DSV) Limiting Factor - A Documentary by Nick Verola

 

[SKORPI0]

 

[hal2kilo]

This is what happens when you build a submersible and don't cut corners.

The Making of the Deep Submergence Vehicle (DSV) Limiting Factor - A Documentary by Nick Verola

Saw the first ones being built for submarine rescue when I was working in the EB shipyard. They were kind of cordoning off the area, but you could definitely tell it was something that was meant to go deep.

Something kind of fishy with that article, says built by Lockheed, named the Mystic. Mystic CT is 5 miles down the road from the EB shipyard (General Dynamics) so, either that wasn't a DSRV being built at EB or Lockheed bought out the contract or subcontracted with EB for the hull structure.

DSRV-1 Mystic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Indus]

Apparently a composite engineer went in the submersible in a test dive in the Caribbean and heard cracking in the composite with his own ears and warned Stockton Rush that it was a sign of damage accumulating but it was just brushed aside and ignored.

The RTM alarm system just seems to have been for show.

 

[Indus]

Also it seems sub incidents aren't that rare.. much to my surprise..

List of submarine and submersible incidents since 2000 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[hal2kilo]

Also it seems sub incidents aren't that rare.. much to my surprise..

List of submarine and submersible incidents since 2000 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the shop I supported, we had a video of when the Georgia sank a personnel transfer tug off of Hawaii. I realized it occurred before the 2000 year mark. The tug actually lost power and slid over one of the stern horizontal stabilizer fins slicing a nice hole in the tugs hull. It went down fast. The video had sound and one of the sailors said "There goes the mail".
Unfortunately, one or two people didn't make it out of the tugs engine room.

 

[skyking]

There was a tug working in Seattle a few years back and my crane operator told me the story about it. It had gone down like that in shallower waters and recovered, and at least one of the guys below deck did not make it either.
it was caught in irons and taken down by the tow conditions before they could cut loose.
Chris said it was always weird to work around it, I suppose not as weird as to work on it in the engine room.
FB link to getting caught in irons, as it applies to a tow.

https://www.facebook.com/NBMTRhodeIsland/videos/when-a-tow-trips-the-tugs-in-irons/945391438956949/

 

[Indus]

Apparently the sub should have been built out of steel like James Cameron said.

I thought titanium was fucking impressive.. but Stainless Steel.. OMFG

 

[pmv]

Apparently the sub should have been built out of steel like James Cameron said.

I thought titanium was fucking impressive.. but Stainless Steel.. OMFG

I guess that's why Cameron didn't opt for having the Terminator built out of acrylic or PVC.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I am Carbon Fiber Terminator.

Just don't stress me too much.

 

[pmv]

I am Carbon Fiber Terminator.

Just don't stress me too much.

You haf been delaminated.
/ArnoldVoice