Looks like the public option has enough votes to pass the senate

[Athena]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I maintain that if the practitioner is allowed to do what they know to be in the best interest of the patient, then that will in itself lower the cost of health care, which is going to be very expensive indeed.

The data show that it just doesn't work that way. Practitioners are people too and there are many instances where the physician's interests may not exactly conflict with patient care but are not necessarily in the long term interests of either the patient or the society. Atul Gwande's article about McAllen, Texas was just one example of that. NPR ran a piece about Maine a couple of weeks ago that was even worse: a town where women were routinely getting hysterectomies with no diagnostic workups at all -- it had just become the culture in the town. The fact is, the more physicians you have in an area, the higher the costs -- because everyone does what he has to keep busy and "needed".

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
Poor repubs brought this on themselves

They could have easily come to the table and negotiated away the public option if they hate it that much. But no their idea of bipartanship and comprimize amounted to offering up 1 inconcequential RHINO. So they get whats handed to them.

You had to know this was the most likely endgame strategy by the dems, the repups made it very clear they wouldn't give an inch on anything. Reid has probably been working on securing the 60 procedural votes for months. And since the repubs have made it near impossible to pass any bill with 60 votes Reid has made the correct call, if they force you to pass it with a partisan vote of less than 60 might as well satisfy the bulk of the dems and include the public option.

afaik, the GOP had their own bills and amendments and got shot down across the board.

LOL yeah their healthcare plan consisted of 16 pages

Quality, not quantity. Just because the dems decided to cram 1000+ pages of bullshit into a bill doesn't mean it was worth the paper it was printed on.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: sportage
Public option is a must. Period.

And I do hope it will lead to the demise of the insurance industry. As the insurance industry fears it will.
You know... that middle man making all the money while not in itself
involved with making sick people better. The ones handeling all the cash.
Making all the calls. Doing none of the work. In the old days we called the likes of
these folks THE MOB.

Imagine a middle man in the utilities industry.
You wouldn?t pay the water supplier directly, you'd pay some
middle man who takes 50% off the top, then forwards the
rest to the water company. Naturally, the middle man gets
greedy and demands more and more. And you pay more and more.

Hey... I think I stumbled onto something.

Yes millions out of work because Americans are too dumb to pay out of pocket for doctors visits, and use the emergency room like a general practitioners office, and sue every one in sight. Most people's electric company is a middle man. AEP owns everything around here, and we are provided service through different companies all charging different rates, and fees, same with cable/internet/phone.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
Poor repubs brought this on themselves

They could have easily come to the table and negotiated away the public option if they hate it that much. But no their idea of bipartanship and comprimize amounted to offering up 1 inconcequential RHINO. So they get whats handed to them.

You had to know this was the most likely endgame strategy by the dems, the repups made it very clear they wouldn't give an inch on anything. Reid has probably been working on securing the 60 procedural votes for months. And since the repubs have made it near impossible to pass any bill with 60 votes Reid has made the correct call, if they force you to pass it with a partisan vote of less than 60 might as well satisfy the bulk of the dems and include the public option. And the idea that 1 lowly RHINO vote makes it a bipartisan bill is just stupid, Olympia Snow has never been a factor IMO.

6 weeks ago there were 32 GOP health bills, none of which the Dems would blink an eye at. So youre wrong. They couldnt have "negotiated" it away, and did in fact try to bring something to the table.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Some sort of public approach makes sense, but people need to realize that health care is expensive and budget for it as they budget for anything important in their lives like a house or a car. Many people will pay $500/month for their car, but that for insurance for their health? Fvck that!

I just don't see someone with a $500/month car payment skipping health insurance. If they can afford that kind of car payment, they're working a good job with benefits.

The guy without health insurance is the guy whose car cost $500.

I know a guy who has no health insurance. Works full time tending bar at a pretty decent place. He drives a BMW that he doesn't have paid off(payment more than my mortgage). Seems to me he's making the choice not to buy Insurance.

There are literally millions of people without health insurance with a household income over $70k, this number was thrown around recently. A great number of those without health insurance do indeed find the money for things like $500 car payments.

Going out health insurance is stupid especially if you make that type of money.

Perhaps theyre uninsured by choice?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Ok, why should the rest of us who aren't political hacks care why children fight in the sandbox? Because the bratty kids are trying to run our health care.

The Reps and Dems BOTH need to grow up and get over themselves. It's the welfare of the patient that's paramount, and if you can't deal with that get out of the way and let adults handle the situation.

Who might those adults be?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Ok, why should the rest of us who aren't political hacks care why children fight in the sandbox? Because the bratty kids are trying to run our health care.

The Reps and Dems BOTH need to grow up and get over themselves. It's the welfare of the patient that's paramount, and if you can't deal with that get out of the way and let adults handle the situation.

Who might those adults be?

The same Democrats who acted the same way over the last 8 years maybe?

/sarcasm

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Athena

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I maintain that if the practitioner is allowed to do what they know to be in the best interest of the patient, then that will in itself lower the cost of health care, which is going to be very expensive indeed.

The data show that it just doesn't work that way. Practitioners are people too and there are many instances where the physician's interests may not exactly conflict with patient care but are not necessarily in the long term interests of either the patient or the society. Atul Gwande's article about McAllen, Texas was just one example of that. NPR ran a piece about Maine a couple of weeks ago that was even worse: a town where women were routinely getting hysterectomies with no diagnostic workups at all -- it had just become the culture in the town. The fact is, the more physicians you have in an area, the higher the costs -- because everyone does what he has to keep busy and "needed".

There are bad doctors, in the sense that they don't know what's going on or what to do. They need to be brought up to dpeed or stop practicing. It's not acceptable.

Still, a major problem IMO is that physicians and nurses in general are being educated with the medical and societal mandate that time is money. Get em in and get em out. We're effectively asking for more of that.

Now any honest assessment of what health care should be needs to take into account those kinds of things you point out. That particular incident didn't come to mind, but if you read my post I included health care professionals and properly educated consumer advocates.

The truth is that many people want to give good health care, but simply aren't trained to do as I've said and take their time to get it right the first time.

That definitely needs to be addressed.

Another thing is the conditions under which some practice and I'm thinking nurses. We have an increasing shortage NOT because of q quota, but because the working conditions are miserable in many places. The average RN age is almost 55 years old. Sure many go in to it, but they quit.

So that's going to have to be taken into account. You can't have good care without good nursing and you can't have that if they are overworked due to budget constraints.

You may or may not remember that I know of a very good pediatricians office who had to cut back on nursing hours to hire paper pushers to take care of private and government billing issues. Did they toss patients? No, they sucked up the work, physicians and nurses alike. The "remedy"? Electronic records. That's just a way to make new errors and suck up even more money. In theory it's great. In practice it's a nightmare.

Politicians know or care? Nope.

Again we need a complete and honest evaluation of our health care system which is easily the most complex system in this or any other country, identify what ought to be done, what can be done, and how to best do it. Equip our practitioners, hold them to high standards, but not strand them in impossible situations and watch things get better.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Ok, why should the rest of us who aren't political hacks care why children fight in the sandbox? Because the bratty kids are trying to run our health care.

The Reps and Dems BOTH need to grow up and get over themselves. It's the welfare of the patient that's paramount, and if you can't deal with that get out of the way and let adults handle the situation.

Who might those adults be?

Those who haven't political agendas to the point that they argue for or against something based on their philosophies without bothering to understand the complexities of the issues.

Private insurance guarantees neither good or poor coverage. A public option is just the same. Unless HEALTH CARE (emphasized to differentiate between care and what is a different financial funding mechanism) is taken into account, everything else is specious.

Those who "get it" are the adults. This is too important to screw up.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Athena

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I maintain that if the practitioner is allowed to do what they know to be in the best interest of the patient, then that will in itself lower the cost of health care, which is going to be very expensive indeed.

The data show that it just doesn't work that way. Practitioners are people too and there are many instances where the physician's interests may not exactly conflict with patient care but are not necessarily in the long term interests of either the patient or the society. Atul Gwande's article about McAllen, Texas was just one example of that. NPR ran a piece about Maine a couple of weeks ago that was even worse: a town where women were routinely getting hysterectomies with no diagnostic workups at all -- it had just become the culture in the town. The fact is, the more physicians you have in an area, the higher the costs -- because everyone does what he has to keep busy and "needed".

There are bad doctors, in the sense that they don't know what's going on or what to do. They need to be brought up to dpeed or stop practicing. It's not acceptable.

Still, a major problem IMO is that physicians and nurses in general are being educated with the medical and societal mandate that time is money. Get em in and get em out. We're effectively asking for more of that.

Now any honest assessment of what health care should be needs to take into account those kinds of things you point out. That particular incident didn't come to mind, but if you read my post I included health care professionals and properly educated consumer advocates.

The truth is that many people want to give good health care, but simply aren't trained to do as I've said and take their time to get it right the first time.

That definitely needs to be addressed.

Another thing is the conditions under which some practice and I'm thinking nurses. We have an increasing shortage NOT because of q quota, but because the working conditions are miserable in many places. The average RN age is almost 55 years old. Sure many go in to it, but they quit.

A couple of things. Do you think schooling + internship is shorter now than is was say, 30 years ago? Do you think the average family MD or internal doc had more knowledge back then? I staunchly disagree.

Also about RN's. I hope you arent confusing RN with LPN. Its typically LPN's that get the shitty jobs. And an RN makes decent money also. If he/she decides for two more years of training/school and specializes, their pay can increase 30-40%. There are a fuck ton of jobs available.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

A couple of things. Do you think schooling + internship is shorter now than is was say, 30 years ago? Do you think the average family MD or internal doc had more knowledge back then? I staunchly disagree. Also about RN's. I hope you arent confusing RN with LPN. Its typically LPN's that get the shitty jobs. And an RN makes decent money also. If he/she decides for two more years of training/school and specializes, their pay can increase 30-40%. There are a fuck ton of jobs available.

It isn't about having knowledge in your head, it's about knowing how to practice medicine in an effective way.

Example
Physician A graduates from school in 2009. He sees you and you have seven minutes to give him a history and be examined.
Physician B graduated in 1980. He takes the hour and a half needed to perform a full evaluation and get a complete history. You have him or her for a full hour and a half because that's how he or she was trained. Now IF (and that's increasingly doubtful timewise) he can do that, who do you think is most likely to get it right?

Now regarding nurses. Yes, RNs. Do you know why there are so many jobs? Because the qualified nurses probably have quit. That's the statistics. I know of one hospital who offered a 10K sign up bonus and a long term paid for lease on a full size SUV a couple years back. It still took a while to fill the spot. Ask Pliablemoose if you think I'm shitting you. In some parts of the nation you can't get a good nurse.

You mention money. Well I don't know what you do, but suppose I tell you that you can make 30-40% more than now. What you have to do is take care of a bunch of patients, some of which are most likely wandering down the hall. You are going to get abused by patients and family menbers. You are going to have administration up your ass if you don't run, and oh yeah, if you screw up because of the pressure you may likely kill someone. How about a nice kick in the balls every minute instead?

The stress and workload are overwhelming. The demands are increasing, and there is no end in sight. Looks like it will get worse. Knowing what I know, I have strongly advised my kids to stay away from health care as a career. The money is good, but there's no future in it given that we are looked upon as the necessary evil.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

A couple of things. Do you think schooling + internship is shorter now than is was say, 30 years ago? Do you think the average family MD or internal doc had more knowledge back then? I staunchly disagree. Also about RN's. I hope you arent confusing RN with LPN. Its typically LPN's that get the shitty jobs. And an RN makes decent money also. If he/she decides for two more years of training/school and specializes, their pay can increase 30-40%. There are a fuck ton of jobs available.

It isn't about having knowledge in your head, it's about knowing how to practice medicine in an effective way.

Example
Physician A graduates from school in 2009. He sees you and you have seven minutes to give him a history and be examined.
Physician B graduated in 1980. He takes the hour and a half needed to perform a full evaluation and get a complete history. You have him or her for a full hour and a half because that's how he or she was trained. Now IF (and that's increasingly doubtful timewise) he can do that, who do you think is most likely to get it right?

Now regarding nurses. Yes, RNs. Do you know why there are so many jobs? Because the qualified nurses probably have quit. That's the statistics. I know of one hospital who offered a 10K sign up bonus and a long term paid for lease on a full size SUV a couple years back. It still took a while to fill the spot. Ask Pliablemoose if you think I'm shitting you. In some parts of the nation you can't get a good nurse.

You mention money. Well I don't know what you do, but suppose I tell you that you can make 30-40% more than now. What you have to do is take care of a bunch of patients, some of which are most likely wandering down the hall. You are going to get abused by patients and family menbers. You are going to have administration up your ass if you don't run, and oh yeah, if you screw up because of the pressure you may likely kill someone. How about a nice kick in the balls every minute instead?

The stress and workload are overwhelming. The demands are increasing, and there is no end in sight. Looks like it will get worse. Knowing what I know, I have strongly advised my kids to stay away from health care as a career. The money is good, but there's no future in it given that we are looked upon as the necessary evil.

Well, my mother has been an RN for 25 years, specializing in operating room, and she has gotten offers of 30k signing with moving paid. She worked for 5 years as a travelling nurse, and made well over 100k with many expenses paid. I also have a childhood friend who is a nurse, graduated 2 years ago. She was on a waiting list for 3 years due to no openings to finish. Many schools are just full.

What you have to do is take care of a bunch of patients, some of which are most likely wandering down the hall. You are going to get abused by patients and family menbers. You are going to have administration up your ass if you don't run, and oh yeah, if you screw up because of the pressure you may likely kill someone. How about a nice kick in the balls every minute instead?

Thats not how specialization works.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

A couple of things. Do you think schooling + internship is shorter now than is was say, 30 years ago? Do you think the average family MD or internal doc had more knowledge back then? I staunchly disagree. Also about RN's. I hope you arent confusing RN with LPN. Its typically LPN's that get the shitty jobs. And an RN makes decent money also. If he/she decides for two more years of training/school and specializes, their pay can increase 30-40%. There are a fuck ton of jobs available.

It isn't about having knowledge in your head, it's about knowing how to practice medicine in an effective way.

Example
Physician A graduates from school in 2009. He sees you and you have seven minutes to give him a history and be examined.
Physician B graduated in 1980. He takes the hour and a half needed to perform a full evaluation and get a complete history. You have him or her for a full hour and a half because that's how he or she was trained. Now IF (and that's increasingly doubtful timewise) he can do that, who do you think is most likely to get it right?

Now regarding nurses. Yes, RNs. Do you know why there are so many jobs? Because the qualified nurses probably have quit. That's the statistics. I know of one hospital who offered a 10K sign up bonus and a long term paid for lease on a full size SUV a couple years back. It still took a while to fill the spot. Ask Pliablemoose if you think I'm shitting you. In some parts of the nation you can't get a good nurse.

You mention money. Well I don't know what you do, but suppose I tell you that you can make 30-40% more than now. What you have to do is take care of a bunch of patients, some of which are most likely wandering down the hall. You are going to get abused by patients and family menbers. You are going to have administration up your ass if you don't run, and oh yeah, if you screw up because of the pressure you may likely kill someone. How about a nice kick in the balls every minute instead?

The stress and workload are overwhelming. The demands are increasing, and there is no end in sight. Looks like it will get worse. Knowing what I know, I have strongly advised my kids to stay away from health care as a career. The money is good, but there's no future in it given that we are looked upon as the necessary evil.

Well, my mother has been an RN for 25 years, specializing in operating room, and she has gotten offers of 30k signing with moving paid. She worked for 5 years as a travelling nurse, and made well over 100k with many expenses paid. I also have a childhood friend who is a nurse, graduated 2 years ago. She was on a waiting list for 3 years due to no openings to finish. Many schools are just full.

What you have to do is take care of a bunch of patients, some of which are most likely wandering down the hall. You are going to get abused by patients and family menbers. You are going to have administration up your ass if you don't run, and oh yeah, if you screw up because of the pressure you may likely kill someone. How about a nice kick in the balls every minute instead?

Thats not how specialization works.

You don't live in NY do you? It's under the gun 24/7 in most places. If your mom has had good luck bless her. interesting tidbit.

Demands increasing, burnout high, not enough schools. All contributing factors, but around here the problem with the nurses I know is that working conditions are deteriorating. I spent a few days in ICU this past spring because of the possibility of an MI. Fortunately for me it was a false alarm, but I got to see firsthand what went on. ICU nurses were doing the work of LPNS. Many didn't take their lunches or breaks.

Me being the charming rogue (tee hee) had a lot of them stopping buy just to vent. I was the "nice guy" because I had some sympathy for their situation and some common point of reference.

I called the hospital administrator personally to let him know that he had a great staff. You would have thought he was going to faint because I didn't scream at him.

That kind of sucks.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

A couple of things. Do you think schooling + internship is shorter now than is was say, 30 years ago? Do you think the average family MD or internal doc had more knowledge back then? I staunchly disagree. Also about RN's. I hope you arent confusing RN with LPN. Its typically LPN's that get the shitty jobs. And an RN makes decent money also. If he/she decides for two more years of training/school and specializes, their pay can increase 30-40%. There are a fuck ton of jobs available.

It isn't about having knowledge in your head, it's about knowing how to practice medicine in an effective way.

Example
Physician A graduates from school in 2009. He sees you and you have seven minutes to give him a history and be examined.
Physician B graduated in 1980. He takes the hour and a half needed to perform a full evaluation and get a complete history. You have him or her for a full hour and a half because that's how he or she was trained. Now IF (and that's increasingly doubtful timewise) he can do that, who do you think is most likely to get it right?

Now regarding nurses. Yes, RNs. Do you know why there are so many jobs? Because the qualified nurses probably have quit. That's the statistics. I know of one hospital who offered a 10K sign up bonus and a long term paid for lease on a full size SUV a couple years back. It still took a while to fill the spot. Ask Pliablemoose if you think I'm shitting you. In some parts of the nation you can't get a good nurse.

You mention money. Well I don't know what you do, but suppose I tell you that you can make 30-40% more than now. What you have to do is take care of a bunch of patients, some of which are most likely wandering down the hall. You are going to get abused by patients and family menbers. You are going to have administration up your ass if you don't run, and oh yeah, if you screw up because of the pressure you may likely kill someone. How about a nice kick in the balls every minute instead?

The stress and workload are overwhelming. The demands are increasing, and there is no end in sight. Looks like it will get worse. Knowing what I know, I have strongly advised my kids to stay away from health care as a career. The money is good, but there's no future in it given that we are looked upon as the necessary evil.

Well, my mother has been an RN for 25 years, specializing in operating room, and she has gotten offers of 30k signing with moving paid. She worked for 5 years as a travelling nurse, and made well over 100k with many expenses paid. I also have a childhood friend who is a nurse, graduated 2 years ago. She was on a waiting list for 3 years due to no openings to finish. Many schools are just full.

What you have to do is take care of a bunch of patients, some of which are most likely wandering down the hall. You are going to get abused by patients and family menbers. You are going to have administration up your ass if you don't run, and oh yeah, if you screw up because of the pressure you may likely kill someone. How about a nice kick in the balls every minute instead?

Thats not how specialization works.

You don't live in NY do you? It's under the gun 24/7 in most places. If your mom has had good luck bless her. interesting tidbit.

Demands increasing, burnout high, not enough schools. All contributing factors, but around here the problem with the nurses I know is that working conditions are deteriorating. I spent a few days in ICU this past spring because of the possibility of an MI. Fortunately for me it was a false alarm, but I got to see firsthand what went on. ICU nurses were doing the work of LPNS. Many didn't take their lunches or breaks.

Me being the charming rogue (tee hee) had a lot of them stopping buy just to vent. I was the "nice guy" because I had some sympathy for their situation and some common point of reference.

I called the hospital administrator personally to let him know that he had a great staff. You would have thought he was going to faint because I didn't scream at him.

That kind of sucks.

Nope not NY. Im sure what youre describing is factual in that case, as is mine. Not every RN job is shitty, and not every one is grande. Some are fantastic working conditions, some arent. Agree? But overall, its a good job that pays well. Maybe we'll agree to disagree on that point.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yeah, I'm sure it's situational, but I'm inclined to be sympathetic with people who are working their asses off and are undervalued.

Props to mom!

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: loki8481
my prediction: harry reid is using this to placate liberals and setting it up to blame republicans when the public option can't get through congress, ignoring the fact that the democrats are the ones in charge and can pass whatever they want

I highly doubt this. If the public option is in the bill, the BILL will fail to get passed, not just the amendment. Reid isn't going to create a bill that will fail just so he can blame Republicans afterward.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
Poor repubs brought this on themselves

They could have easily come to the table and negotiated away the public option if they hate it that much. But no their idea of bipartanship and comprimize amounted to offering up 1 inconcequential RHINO. So they get whats handed to them.

You had to know this was the most likely endgame strategy by the dems, the repups made it very clear they wouldn't give an inch on anything. Reid has probably been working on securing the 60 procedural votes for months. And since the repubs have made it near impossible to pass any bill with 60 votes Reid has made the correct call, if they force you to pass it with a partisan vote of less than 60 might as well satisfy the bulk of the dems and include the public option.

afaik, the GOP had their own bills and amendments and got shot down across the board.

I read the major GOP HC "bill" (there's a link to it in another of the innumerable HC threads), and it was a big, fat nothing. It was filled with nice-sounding statements of its objectives (objectives that virtually everyone agrees on), but provided no specifics on how to achieve those objectives.

 

[cubby1223]

One day the headline is that the Senate has enough votes for the public option...

The next day the headline is that the House does not have enough votes for the public option...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politi...1023/pl_politico/28651

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Ok, why should the rest of us who aren't political hacks care why children fight in the sandbox? Because the bratty kids are trying to run our health care.

The Reps and Dems BOTH need to grow up and get over themselves. It's the welfare of the patient that's paramount, and if you can't deal with that get out of the way and let adults handle the situation.

Who might those adults be?

Him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0sgwv0rNUA

Yeah, this brainless meat-head gets to be the center of attention for some reason notice how he says nothing of substance the whole interview?

Still curious how the Democrats are so concerned to pass something immediately to start "saving lives", when the benefits don't begin to kick in for another 3 years...

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Ok, why should the rest of us who aren't political hacks care why children fight in the sandbox? Because the bratty kids are trying to run our health care.

The Reps and Dems BOTH need to grow up and get over themselves. It's the welfare of the patient that's paramount, and if you can't deal with that get out of the way and let adults handle the situation.

Who might those adults be?

Him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0sgwv0rNUA

Yeah, this brainless meat-head gets to be the center of attention for some reason notice how he says nothing of substance the whole interview?

Still curious how the Democrats are so concerned to pass something immediately to start "saving lives", when the benefits don't begin to kick in for another 3 years...

It has something to do with the 2010 election cycle.

 

[OCGuy]

Too bad the house doesnt?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politi...1023/pl_politico/28651

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: cubby1223
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0sgwv0rNUA

Still curious how the Democrats are so concerned to pass something immediately to start "saving lives", when the benefits don't begin to kick in for another 3 years...

It has something to do with the 2010 election cycle.

I know it has everything to do with the 2010 election cycle as well as the current political climate.

But shouldn't it instead be about the citizens?

The main argument the shit-for-brains in the link is giving is that we have a problem of people dying right now. Well, passing reform in a hurry before even figuring out the details, doesn't solve that problem.

That's the intelligence level of those helping create perhaps the most important thing we have as citizens :roll:

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: OCguy
Too bad the house doesnt?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politi...1023/pl_politico/28651

Um, this is only the most aggressive version that's problematical - no surprise there. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
One day the headline is that the Senate has enough votes for the public option...

The next day the headline is that the House does not have enough votes for the public option...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politi...1023/pl_politico/28651

Try reading that article again. Edit is your friend.

 

[cubby1223]

^^^
I know what it says. It's about on par with the original article of this thread stating that the public option is back.