Looks like the ISIS/Middle east crisis is impacting Europe hard

[Gryz]

Whiskey, what is your point ?

Because I think we mostly agree.
But you are angry with me, so I wonder what it is that I said that makes you angry ?
You quoted a lot of information. But I don't see your statements, your conclusions. Your point.

Do you think the US didn't do anything wrong when invading Iraq ?
Do you think it was wrong, but because UK and NL and other joined in, we can't blame the US ?
Is it about the war in Syria ?
I lost track.

You haven't countered a thing against the reality that I've cited. You are repeating falsehoods all to appeal to your truthiness....

I'm a bit imprecise in my words. Probably true. Maybe because I don't care about words. I care about actions. I don't care about the letter of the law. I care about the spirit of the law. When there are no laws, treaties or contracts that say that something is forbidden, that doesn't mean that that thing suddenly is ethically just.

Iraq is not a member of the International Criminal Court (..except for two weeks in 2005 when the USA was mortified and had Iraq appeal its decision). Only a member of the ICC can call for an investigation of crimes within its jurisdiction.

Huh ? Does it matter, when all that matters is "who is a dick" ?

Further, blame your own country for the lack of integrity and moral compass.

Not sure what specifically you are referring to. But I agree, our governments in NL during the last 13 years have been terrible. Balkenende and Rutte are clueless and useless. We follow the US, no matter what. And when they don't follow the US, they are just as bad. Our politicians utter very high ethical words all the time. But they behave (and vote) like a bunch of toddlers. Our current generation of politicians don't care about politics. They only care about politicians.
Let's not get distracted in this thread about NL.
Even if NL is the same as the US, that doesn't mean that what I said about Iraq isn't true.

Blame yourselves for the crimes that you choose. Be mature -- take accountability. Certainly do not pass buck to blame the world that is on the record for overwhelming opposing the invasion and lacks the legal means and power to hold state actors such as the USA to account.

Lots of words were spoken in 2003. Nothing was done. Iraq was invaded. If you think you, or someone else, spoke the correct words at the time. Fine. No opposition here. But the fact remains: Iraq was invaded. And that had serious effects on the whole middle-east.

You represent among the worst of internet opposition to intellect and reason.

Again, what exactly is your point ?

I'm not gonna link a bunch of URLs on the net. Usually that has little purpose on any Internet discussion forum. Waste of time. I don't disagree with your facts. I think I don't even disagree with your conclusion. It seems it's a matter of semantics: does one believe that opposing in words is the same as opposing in deeds. You might be saying that the majority of the world opposed the invasion with words. True. But my point was that it hardly matters, because in deeds, Iraq was invaded. And there were no consequences for the invaders.

 

[retrospooty]

The US started this. For 2 reasons.

1) They invaded Iraq without any legit reason..... 2) When rebellion started in Syria 4 years ago, the US (and the EU) chose the wrong side.

Technically, we were involved pulling strings long before that... It's not that we should "stay out of the middle east" It is that we "shouldn't have been involved in the first place". However, what is done is done and we need to get out now... TBH, the whole middle east is a shit hole that has a lot of maniacs living in it. It has been forcibly taken over by armies and various factions thousands of times since history began - literally since history began. It isnt a Christian /Muslim thing, as the problems LONG precede either religion. We just need to stay the hell out. "But, If we leave Iraq and Afghanistan the nutjobs will take over again " - that is correct, and that is correct if we left 10 years ago, today, 10 years from now , 20 years from now or even 100 years from now. Stay out - there is simply no winning there. Let them keep killing each other and not us. Seriously, the place is like a cage full of rabid dogs and we are always poking at it with sticks.

 

[piasabird]

Basically the US left Iraq because Iraq asked the USA to leave so they could mistreat the Sunni's. So Iraq kicked out all the Sunni's and they formed ISIS and came back and started to kick their ass. Instead of building a government of inclusion they build a government of apartheid and hatred. Iraq caused a lot of its own problems.

I was against the war in Iraq before it started. I knew the terrorists would start showing up and cause problems. Part of the Problem is the USA is not willing to be hard enough on the troublemakers and we tried to fight this nicer gentler war under Pres Bush. Bush did not have enough backbone to kill all Saddam's buddies. He let them live and cause trouble. The Iraq war was doomed from the start. When Iran started sending in supplies and trained terrorists and teaching people to make stronger IED's we should have bombed the hell out Iran. This mess is caused by having no backbone.

 

[retrospooty]

Basically the US left Iraq because Iraq asked the USA to leave so they could mistreat the Sunni's. So Iraq kicked out all the Sunni's and they formed ISIS and came back and started to kick their ass. Instead of building a government of inclusion they build a government of apartheid and hatred. Iraq caused a lot of its own problems.

Expand that sentiment to the entire middle east going back to 5000+ BC. It's been this way literally since written history began (and likely was that way before anything waas written)... The USA isn't going to change a damn thing.

 

[Blue_Max]

Anyone catch the dozens of videos showing how these refugees are behaving in transit and on arrival?

Let's just say it's certainly not gratitude.

Look it up yourselves.

Don't forget that ISIS themselves have said they plan to sneak out as many operatives as possible in the tide of refugees (or more properly, "immigrants".)

 

[feralkid]

TBH, the whole middle east is a shit hole that has a lot of maniacs living in it. /QUOTE]





That is a most ignorant statement.

It does nothing but harm your credibility.

 

[Indus]

In a way, does this look like how the native Americans felt that people just kept coming onto their land?

 

[Svnla]

Chancellor Merkel of Germany said they would take in about 800 thousands but Germany will not be able to take that much in scale each year after this.

So how EU will handle million and million more that are coming soon? Some said just from Syria would be about 4 million plus other nationalities. Stay tuned.

 

[MagickMan]

Should of had that opinion in 2002. Pandoras box has been opened. Only progressives got it right back then. Must suck for the republicans to know how bad they fucked everything up.

The Democratic shits in the senate who signed on with Bush and gave him complete authority to wage his daddy's war? The ones who wrote the checks? Those "Progressives"? That's funny, because what you call a Progressive didn't even exist then, at least not in positions of power with numbers great enough to do anything about it. The only people dissenting were the libertarians, and we were berated and called "isolationists" for it.

 

[StinkyPinky]

If only we had a time machine and could go back to 2003 and tell all the war hawks "I told you so". This is what happens when you prod a hornets nest.

 

[retrospooty]

That is a most ignorant statement. It does nothing but harm your credibility.

Then by all means, read the whole post and address the point made. It was a divisive way to state it, but the point made stands. This place has been in utter turmoil, brutally taken and taken again over and over since history began with endless hatred and ignorance... Today is no different. As I mentioned, the USA cant fix it. It doesn't matter if we left 10 years ago, today, 10 years from now , or 100 years from now, when we step off, the nutjobs will march back in and take over. Us being there only creates more extreme fanatics and gives them an external outlet for their endless hatred. Let them go back to killing each other as they have for 7000+ years. If we could fix it, by all means we should, but we cannot. The "problems" that exist there are literally 30x older than the USA itself.

 

[1sikbITCH]

If Government was scaled down, if life wasn't so expensive, then we could all get along.

-John

Maybe sing some kum ba ya?

That's how we defeated Al Qaeda. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMv8439oDNA

 

[PingviN]

The US uncompromisingly demanding Assad to be removed from power before engaging in peace talks is just the last in a long line of foreign relations fuck-ups. Overestimating the oppositions unity and want for democracy, while underestimating the regime's public and military support is what drew shit this far.

 

[retrospooty]

The US uncompromisingly demanding Assad to be removed from power before engaging in peace talks is just the last in a long line of foreign relations fuck-ups. Overestimating the oppositions unity and want for democracy, while underestimating the regime's public and military support is what drew shit this far.

Yup, more proof and all the more reason we need to GTFO of the middle east. Leave them to their own fate. It sucks, but we cant fix it. Our involvement only makes it worse. Worse for them, worse for Europe, worse for us, worse for the world as a whole.

 

[Blue_Max]

Yup, more proof and all the more reason we need to GTFO of the middle east. Leave them to their own fate. It sucks, but we cant fix it. Our involvement only makes it worse. Worse for them, worse for Europe, worse for us, worse for the world as a whole.

If we could just kick our addiction for oil we'd have no reason to have anything to do with them.

Heh... funny thought... imagine the world no longer needed petroleum. What would that entire corner of the world DO with no more product to export? You think it's chaos now?

 

[retrospooty]

If we could just kick our addiction for oil we'd have no reason to have anything to do with them.

Heh... funny thought... imagine the world no longer needed petroleum. What would that entire corner of the world DO with no more product to export? You think it's chaos now?

The super wealthy would no longer have that oil income so that would dry up... But basically they would go back to the way they did things before the 1900's - they would be killing each other for some reason or another. Oh wait, that is what they do now and have done for 7000+ years. So I guess nothing would change other than the wests involvement.

 

[MagickMan]

The super wealthy would no longer have that oil income so that would dry up... But basically they would go back to the way they did things before the 1900's - they would be killing each other for some reason or another. Oh wait, that is what they do now and have done for 7000+ years. So I guess nothing would change other than the wests involvement.

This is some ignorant fucking shit, right here.

That's not where they get their money. Wanna know where they get it? From interest YOU (and your like) pay on debt YOU accumulate. If you and the rest of the middle and lower class people stopped racking up debt on 12-25+% APR loans and CCs, you'd effectively be weakening the uber rich and strengthening yourselves in the process. The whole goddamned thing is so massively ironic it's painful. :\

 

[retrospooty]

This is some ignorant fucking shit, right here.

That's not where they get their money. Wanna know where they get it? From interest YOU (and your like) pay on debt YOU accumulate.

You completely missed the tongue in cheek comment there, but ok... Anyhow they get money from alot of places, but that wasn't the point , not even a little bit. The point was our involvement is pointless, useless and fruitless and it wont change anything except to make matters worse. Worse for them, us, Europe and the world as a whole. The USA (or anyone for that matter) being involved in the middle east is like poking sticks at a bag of cats.