Looking to buy Acura 3.2TL Type-S, any bargaining tips? Read on...

[Lore]

Now I'm really confused.

I used the guidelines on Carbuyingtips.com and figured 5% profit above dealer cost as my offer -- and it was HIGHER than the dealer invoice price, which was the price they're selling at.

How does that work? Do I need to see what other fees there are by going into the dealership to see the actual dealer invoice sheet?

 

[SuperTool]

Have the TL type S transmission failures been resolved? I remember that being a big issue with that car.

And frankly, I would go with the G35 (prefferably coupe, but sedan too). Better platform, better engine, better transmission, and better looking exterior, IMHO. Interior wise, neither particularly stands out, but at least G35 doesn't scream "Accord." Also, G35 is in the prime of its model cycle, while this TL-s model is going out next year. Frankly, unless you need FWD in the snow, I don't see many reasons to pick the TLS over a G35.

 

[Lore]

I just got an email from a dealer saying that they'll sell the TL for $250 under invoice. I guess they're starting to get desperate and want to offload these cars ASAP.

However, I'm confused where their profit margin is coming from. I tried to calculate 2% factory holdback and give them 5% profit but that takes the price above invoice. If anyone has any inside knowledge as to how much their actual cost is, let me know...

 

[gregshin]

We just bought a 2003 CL this last March. Whatever you do...DO NOT GET THE AUTOMATIC TRANNIES!!! i know people who are using their 3rd new tranny from acura with less then 100k miles...its seems acura messed up on designing the auto trannies. The 6spd manual trannies are fine tho...okay now that i've gotten off my chest here is how much we got our brand new 2003 CL for....$25,000 not including tax and licensing with no nav and options. That is the base model.

 

[gregshin]

i also forgot to add that the TL also shares the same problems too...

www.acura-cl.com is the best forum to check out

we also got the car below dealer invoice...the reason is there is no 2004 CL in production and the 2004 TL is gonna be redesigned.. you can get FAR better for under $250 invoice on the cl and tl. we bought the car in socal btw.

 

[stevens]

The best way to buy a car is to go to the dealership with a cheque in your hand for exacly how much you want to spend and you will find a salesman wholl sell it to you.

 

[OS]

The TL and CL automatic 5 speeds have known transmission problems. It's estimated a single digit percentage of them basically die without abuse, I've seen stories of some people going through multiple replacement transmissions. OTOH, some owners thoroughly abuse their transmissions and never suffer a failure. The community suspects it's a bad set of clutch packs which release debris into the tranny. Even new models are supposedly afflicted. And since the new Accord V6 5 speed is based on the CL/TL auto transmission, the new accords are also suspect. I've heard of a handful of isolated failures, 7th gen accord v6 tranny failures, so a problem may still potentially exist. 6 speed/manuals don't have this problem.

Other Honda trannies are also suspect, 6th gen accord V6 trannies are also known to die in small, but significant numbers. Same situation, some never have a problem under hard driving, others die repeatedly for no reason. A band aid fix for all these situations is to install an aftermarket transmission cooler, it's a 50 dollar part and it reduces the strain on the transmission. This situation is kind of a dirty little secret of the Honda world. I like Honda cars a lot, but people need to be aware that they're possibly buying themselves into a 20-35 thousand dollar mistake.

Do a search on some Accord/CL/TL forums, there's alot already written about the situation. Searches on google aren't that helpful, the problem is pretty well buried.

 

[Lore]

Originally posted by: OS
The TL and CL automatic 5 speeds have known transmission problems. It's estimated a single digit percentage of them basically die without abuse, I've seen stories of some people going through multiple replacement transmissions. OTOH, some owners thoroughly abuse their transmissions and never suffer a failure. The community suspects it's a bad set of clutch packs which release debris into the tranny. Even new models are supposedly afflicted. And since the new Accord V6 5 speed is based on the CL/TL auto transmission, the new accords are also suspect. I've heard of a handful of isolated failures, 7th gen accord v6 tranny failures, so a problem may still potentially exist. 6 speed/manuals don't have this problem.

Other Honda trannies are also suspect, 6th gen accord V6 trannies are also known to die in small, but significant numbers. Same situation, some never have a problem under hard driving, others die repeatedly for no reason. A band aid fix for all these situations is to install an aftermarket transmission cooler, it's a 50 dollar part and it reduces the strain on the transmission. This situation is kind of a dirty little secret of the Honda world. I like Honda cars a lot, but people need to be aware that they're possibly buying themselves into a 20-35 thousand dollar mistake.

Do a search on some Accord/CL/TL forums, there's alot already written about the situation. Searches on google aren't that helpful, the problem is pretty well buried.

Thank you very much for your feedback.

I too have started researching this on the Acura-specific forums and am quite appalled at the problems I am reading. I'm scared that it could happen to a car that I buy, but it really seems like a crapshoot at this point. Are you saying that even the 2004 Acura TLs will have the problem? I thought they redesigned the tranny?

Dang it... amidst all these good things about the car this horrible (and serious) problem crops up. Just my luck!

 

[VTBigBear]

get manual


dang i was thinking about a TL too....

 

[radioouman]

If you can wait, you'd better. Two months ago, I saw the NEW 3.2TL at the Honda plant. It should be released this fall. If I were you, I'd wait for it.

 

[fonzinator]

Originally posted by: LiQiCE
Dealer holdback = The percentage that the factory will "repay" the dealer for having the car on the lot (like renting space). So if Acura's dealer holdback is 2%, then they are paid 2% of the cost of the car to leave the car on the lot for XX time. If the car is sold the day it arrives on the lot, then the dealer pockets this money.

That's correct. Dealer holdback is the key to getting a car below invoice. Say this 2003 TL-S comes to the dealer. The dealer pays invoice for the car. You can find out the true invoice price for any car from Edmunds.com. However, the manufacturer "pays" the dealer a holdback. Holdbacks will usually vary between 1%-3%. These can also be found on Edmunds.com. So this car has a 1% holdback. From the day of taking delivery of the car, the dealer has the full 1% holdback in their pocket. If they sell the car that day, the dealer will receive the full 1% from the manufacturer. However, Holdbacks have a time limit. If my memory is correct, it is 30 days. This 1% holdback depreciates to $0 at day 30. The car sold inbetween this 0-30 days will receive a holdback that has been depreciated accordingly. Holdback is an extra incentive from the manufacturer for dealers to move cars quickly.

In order to use holdback to your advantage, you must know how long the car has been on the lot. Perhaps you could ask the dealer, although I'm not sure they would tell you. Haggling with holdback is most useful when taking delivery on a car made-to-order. You then know it's been dumped right off the truck when you take delivery. The dealer is gettin the FULL X% holdback on this car, plus whatever $s above invoice you are paying.

If I messed anything up in my explination, please correct me. This is all from memory and it may be a little rusty today...

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Lore

Thank you very much for your feedback.

I too have started researching this on the Acura-specific forums and am quite appalled at the problems I am reading. I'm scared that it could happen to a car that I buy, but it really seems like a crapshoot at this point. Are you saying that even the 2004 Acura TLs will have the problem? I thought they redesigned the tranny?

Dang it... amidst all these good things about the car this horrible (and serious) problem crops up. Just my luck!

I don't know about the 2004 TL, since that's supposed to be a redesign. I will say that the current generation transmission design (TL,CL) is generally considered weak and marginal, and derivatives of that design are also suspect (03 Accord V6). I've read of CL transmissions with build dates as recent as January 2003 dying.

The 04 TL drivetrain will probably be an extension of current designs (TL, CL, 03 Accord V6) so there's a possibility similar problems may occur. The jury is still out on the 03 accord V6, like I said there are already isolated reports of tranny failures on those models but nothing conclusive yet.

The 03 AV6 does incorporate a bandaid fix, throttle is electronically controlled/drive by wire and the ECU cuts off throttle right before shifts. Of course, that doesn't address any potential inherent transmission weaknesses. The 04 TL will probably have a similar setup.

If you want to avoid the problem all together, you can buy a 6 speed manual CL. Also, I4 accords aren't considered affected. I realize it seems like a huge step down, but EX trim accords are pretty loaded and the 4 cylinder accord is underrated, dyno results suggest that it actually has 180 HP at the crank instead of the rated 160. MT recently did a shoot out and it's faster than it's other two I4 competitors, the Altima and the Camry.

Consider the G35 also. Nissan has lately been plagued by QC problems, but that doesn't seem to extend to the infiniti label. The nice thing about the G35 is that it's built in Japan, I'm still not convinced US built Japanese labels are as good as the ones actually built in Japan. The japanese don't export their best manufacturing technologies for fear of industrial espionage.

This is all just my understanding, it's good that you're doing your own research because I can't know everything about the situation.

 

[Justorq]

Get the TL ... There hasn't been that many cases of transmission failure ...
You won't have any problems with that Car ... beleive me (I have the TL type s A-Spec found only in Canada)
oh and the new TL is supposed to have a new transmission.

 

[V00DOO]

My friend got TL Type S w/o Navi for $32,400 out the door. But that was like a year ago.


Good luck.

 

[rubenswm]

I'd opt for the 6MT for sure..

 

[Lore]

Originally posted by: V00DOO
My friend got TL Type S w/o Navi for $32,400 out the door. But that was like a year ago.


Good luck.

Has your friend had any transmission problems with his vehicle? Was his a 02 or 03 model?

 

[Mani]

The TL type-S is a great car and an awesome value especially discounted, just make absolutely sure you are fine with FWD. Also keep in mind that it is being restyled for '04 (though this is probably why you're getting such a good deal).

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Lore
I just got an email from a dealer saying that they'll sell the TL for $250 under invoice. I guess they're starting to get desperate and want to offload these cars ASAP.

However, I'm confused where their profit margin is coming from. I tried to calculate 2% factory holdback and give them 5% profit but that takes the price above invoice. If anyone has any inside knowledge as to how much their actual cost is, let me know...

their margin is coming from a factory to dealer rebate that you're not aware of and they're not going to tell you about.

oh, and if you're financing at the dealer and they know that you are they're counting on padding your payments

 

[Lore]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Lore
I just got an email from a dealer saying that they'll sell the TL for $250 under invoice. I guess they're starting to get desperate and want to offload these cars ASAP.

However, I'm confused where their profit margin is coming from. I tried to calculate 2% factory holdback and give them 5% profit but that takes the price above invoice. If anyone has any inside knowledge as to how much their actual cost is, let me know...

their margin is coming from a factory to dealer rebate that you're not aware of and they're not going to tell you about.

oh, and if you're financing at the dealer and they know that you are they're counting on padding your payments

That's why I'll probably bring a calculator and my laptop to be able to verify their monthly payments with mine. What are they going to pad it with anyway?

 

[LiQiCE]

The tranny problem is very overblown. There is only a small percentage of cars with this problem. The problem seems to be most prevalent in 2001-2002 Type S models of the TL/CL as well. 2003 models of the CL and TL are not exempt from this problem, however most will agree that the problem was isolated to early 2003 production models (Cars built before June of 2002). Insiders at Honda have claimed that they started tracking the tranny problem sometime in 2002, and eventually recognized the manufacturer that they were outsourcing the bad parts from and cut them out of newer production 2003 models. If you do end up with a bad transmission, Acura will fix it under warranty (4 year / 50,000 mile warranty) and replacement trannies should not exhibit the problem either. There have been some people who have had multiple tranny failures, but I think many of these failures are a result of improper installation of the replacement tranny, and also due to abuse from some owners.

The thing about invoice price that you must remember is that invoice price is usually what the lowest price a dealer is willing to let go of a car for and STILL make a profit. Invoice price is not the dealer cost. Dealer cost is something that most dealers will not tell you, and it is lower than what the listed invoice price of the car is. With this in mind, you can pay invoice price on a car that the dealer wants to get rid of, and they will still make money on the car (not including operating expenses, salaries, etc etc).

I wouldn't worry about the transmission problem at all ... I'm close to 10,000 miles and 1 year on my '03 TL-S and the tranny is still running strong. I don't abuse my car, but I also don't drive the car like a granny either. If this is the car you want, just get it and don't worry about something that only effects somewhere around 2% of TL/CLs on the road!

 

[Lore]

LiQiCE:

Thanks for your comments -- with 2.9% financing I am seriously thinking about going in to get one.

A dealer that I had been communicating with told me that $250 under invoice is the MOST I would pay, and depending on what car I choose further discounting is possible. They say they have over 70 TLs on their lot, so that's got to have something to do with it.

They're also (so far) the most honest and responsive dealership; everyone else I've talked to is kinda "oh, just send me your best price and I'll beat it" instead of actually talking to me. This dealership even explained that the dealer holdback is the only thing they're making on the car.

What accessories did you get? I want to get a moonroof visor and a rear spoiler and have been provided with two different prices (different dealers) on them. I'm trying to figure out how to negotiate that.

The 2.9% financing is available until June 30 2003 so I think I'll wait until June to go in; I am busy at the end of this month and I know the best time to buy is at the end of the month.

 

[Sluggo]

My wife has a 2002 CL with about 16k on it, and it has not exhibited any type of transmission issues. Not to say that it wont, but it hasnt yet.

EDIT

That being said, while its a great car and all, I find it extremely uncomfortable to drive. Its OK for short trips (less than 1 hour) but on a long drive, the seat side bolsters start to dig into my upper back. I am pretty wide shouldered, and a relatively big guy, and that has more to do with it than the car itself, it just doesnt fit me.

But hey, my wife loves it, thats what counts.

 

[Muadib]

I also wouldn't worry about the tranny thing. I have a 2002, and just went over 30k with no problems.

As for the price battle, the longer you wait, the better you will do. With the debut of the 2004 model approching, finding a dealer that will sell you one minus some of the holdback should be easy. Acura has a 3% holdback of the base MSRP. Tell the guy you want to buy it minus the holdback and see what he says.

What exactly is 1% dealer holdback?

Dealer holdback explained.

 

[LiQiCE]

Originally posted by: Lore
LiQiCE:

Thanks for your comments -- with 2.9% financing I am seriously thinking about going in to get one.

A dealer that I had been communicating with told me that $250 under invoice is the MOST I would pay, and depending on what car I choose further discounting is possible. They say they have over 70 TLs on their lot, so that's got to have something to do with it.

They're also (so far) the most honest and responsive dealership; everyone else I've talked to is kinda "oh, just send me your best price and I'll beat it" instead of actually talking to me. This dealership even explained that the dealer holdback is the only thing they're making on the car.

What accessories did you get? I want to get a moonroof visor and a rear spoiler and have been provided with two different prices (different dealers) on them. I'm trying to figure out how to negotiate that.

The 2.9% financing is available until June 30 2003 so I think I'll wait until June to go in; I am busy at the end of this month and I know the best time to buy is at the end of the month.

Lore - These were the best prices I got on the Moonroof visor and Rear Tail Spoiler - $66 for the moonroof visor, and $566 for the rear tail spoiler, they include installation though.

If you think you're good at installing stuff on cars though, the moonroof visor is pretty easy, and the rear tail spoiler isn't too hard, and they can both be had for less at Hondacuraworld.com - which is just a dealership who sells parts online. I'd highly recommend them for any OEM acessories you might want that are easy installs like all-season floor mats. The Rear Wing Spoiler is only $466.70 online, and the moonroof visor is only $46.80 there ... But again, that doesn't include installation.

Are you going to get the NAVI? I would go for it, even though the new Accord/TSX/2004 TL NAVI is a lot cooler, the old NAVI system is still very useful.

 

[Muadib]

Are you going to get the NAVI? I would go for it, even though the new Accord/TSX/2004 TL NAVI is a lot cooler, the old NAVI system is still very useful.

What is it that makes it cooler, voice recognition?