Looking for tiny case (very samll micro-itx?) sub 7x12x12

[you2]

I was also thinking 310 (as well as the 110) in case the psu died.

Anyways I think i have my options and i'm reading a few more reviews. In-win also has an interesting product with bp-655 and tweak town has a pretty good review (including the psu) for the 310 and bp-655; andtech has a good review on the 110 and sg05 - so I think those are my four options - and I'll send some pictures to my parents and see if they care.
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price wise the in-win is the cheapest ($44 vs $90 for the others); size wise the 110 is the smallest (obviously). Orientation I think it comes down to the 110, 310 and sg05 (the in-win is close to the 310 (12.20" x 10.40" x 3.90" vs 12.90" x 8.70" x 3.80" ) for completeness we have antec 110 @ 8.7" x 3.1" x 8.4" and sg05 @ 8.74" x 6.93" x 10.8 ).

The andtech review of the 110 indicates the ssd will run a bit hot but otherwise it is fine; the review for the bp655, 310 and sg05 are mostly positive. Not sure if I should be concern abuot the temp on the ssd though cooler is better.


Sadly you can no longer buy the g2020t, g2120t or g2030t (35watt g part) so I'll have to either use the g2020/g2120/g2030 (55watt) or i3-3120t (35 watt) (which is $50 more than the G's). I'll probably go with the 55watt g - which ever is least expensive unless there is a massive sale on the i3.
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There are three motherboard (more if i consider q77): asrock $89, gigabyte $79, msi (?? not availble in usa??) - the asrock looks better than the gigabyte but i'll go with the msi if it is available and below $100.
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Hum. I think I covered everything

Talking about the Antec ISK 110 VESA? Yes, you can replace the stock PSU with the Pico PSU. However, unless you actually needed the power, you will merely be wasting money. Will you need the power? For what is available in an ITX form factor that physically fits inside the ISK 110 case, only if you went with an AMD CPU/APU that was over 100W TDP would you need a higher wattage PSU. The stock Antec PSU has been known to successfully run Intel quads (Sandy Bridge, etc.).

 

[Zap]

The In Win BP-655 appears to use a standard TFX sized PSU, so 3rd party replacements should be easy to obtain. Heck, Seasonic even makes some high end TFX PSUs that are 350W 80Plus Gold with modular cabling!

I remembered another case, the In Win BQS656. Think of it as an Antec ISK 110 but with a higher capacity 120W PSU (also external brick) and supporting a single 2.5" drive plus a slim optical, instead of the dual 2.5" drive and no optical of the Antec. Size-wise it is similar to the Antec ISK 110.

I think you need to get over the low wattage parts. Seriously! Don't sweat it. Just save money and use a normal wattage part. The PSUs can take the load.

Also, I will keep my replies here even though I'm aware that you are posting the same question (and I've even replied) in other forums.

 

[you2]

Yes sorry about the multiple posts - unfortunatley tickets are already purchased so i have a limited window to decide what to buy - i.e, i panicked. I think part of my concern are the 'stupid' power calculators are giving me the results in the 100 to 200 watt range and I'm thinking well it should use less than that but don't really know how much the motherboard sucks up. Heck I don't even know what it means to be a 55watt part (does that mean peak 55watt; max 55watt or some other weird rating that only intel understand). Anyways thanks for the suggestion on the 656 - i'll dig out some reviews on it. Techradar had a pretty good review on the 310 and found the psu to be quite decent (no ripples in spec) ('cept the efficiency was a bit lower than the others - around 77% which isn't too bad).

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The 656 looks very interesting though there are no reviews anywhere - wonder if it is a new model.
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I found this review from 2010 - not a great review but something;
http://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=395&page=5
(actually that is for the bq656 not to be confused with the bqs656). Hard to keep track of these numbers.
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The case looks pretty interesting. The power-regulartor inside the case is all teapo if that matters.

 

[Zap]

Don't sweat the efficiency at these lower wattages. To give you an example, let's say you build a super high end rig for benchmarking and you go crazy overclocked and triple GPUs. Such a rig might pull 1000W from the wall. The difference between 80% and 77% efficiency will be 30W. With a more efficient rig using integrated graphics that may pull 100W from the wall, you are looking at a 3W difference with the same percentage difference of efficiency. And unless you run stuff that pegs utilization at 100%, most of the time (watching vids, web browsing, etc.) you will probably be using a mere 30W or so. At that low a power draw you may be looking at a 1W difference in real world power draw.

And yes, power calculators over estimate. There are various reasons they do so, and they aren't a bad starting point for someone who wants to build an average gaming rig. For your specialized setup, the stock PSU of the ISK 110 is sufficient. More than sufficient.

Intel's TDP is a number they give for the entire family of processors (including potential future CPUs which may or may not be released) as a guideline for cooling. Have you looked at the Pentium G2030? It is 100MHz higher, but the "same" 55W TDP. How about a Core i3-3250 at 3.5GHz? A full 600MHz faster and with Hyperthreading, plus "higher end" HD 2500 graphics. Yet it is still 55W. Why is that? Well, they are all a "family" of dual core Ivy Bridge. Do you really think they all use the exact same power?

I have an In Win BQ656 sitting unused in my garage. I was unable to build a system in it because the stock heatsink didn't fit. The BQS656 has a mesh bulge on the cover (similar to the ISK 110, actually) which allows for stock coolers to fit.

 

[you2]

Ok thanks. Yea the BQS656 looks a bit nicer than the antec case esp with the dvd drive (and the newegg reviews seem to indicate the layout is much improved over the bq656); if the psu is as good as the antec (no ripples) then I think it might be the better case (do you agree? disagree?). Anyways I've sent pictures to my follks to see if they care about the case looks - my guess is they will go with the bqs or silverstone.
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btw out of curiosity what device measure wattage draw of a system? Something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/P3-Internatio...id=1373273239&sr=8-1&keywords=killawatt+meter

 

[Zap]

Yes, a Kill-A-Watt is a cheap way to measure power draw. The slightly more expensive ones can remember settings and even take input on what you pay for electricity and do the math for you on how much it costs to run a device. Otherwise the cheapest one works fine for a budget model. Note that they are not 100% foolproof. For some reason they are sometimes fooled by active PFC. If that happens, it will usually report a number closer to the system usage, and not the actual draw from the wall. However, they usually work fine.

Yes, BQS656 is better than BQ656. As to whether to get that or the Antec will depend IMO on these things (from memory).

Antec
- More widely available and is standardized (BQS656 on Newegg has what In Win considers "options" and there isn't necessarily a standardized configuration)
- Known for good customer service (In Win is unknown, not necessarily bad)
- More front USB ports

In Win
- Usually cheaper
- Can do one 2.5" drive and one slim ODD, or two 2.5" drive so more flexible layout
- Higher wattage PSU (though In Win PSUs are considered lower "quality" than Antec)
- Better looking (IMO)
- Has front audio ports

I don't think you need to obsess too much over PSU quality. As long as it isn't a "crappy" PSU, at stock speeds there usually isn't any benefit from lower ripple as long as it is within ATX spec.

Too bad you're in Boston. Otherwise I could show you what a BQ656 looks like (different PSU, no bulge side panel but otherwise same as BQW656) as well as some other SFF cases such as the Mini Box M350 and ISK 300-150.

 

[piasabird]

I agree that there is a possibility of failure when the fans are small and the power supply may be hard to replace. So maybe consider just using something larger. I kind of like the SGO5BB, but it uses a SFX power supply. A full size ATX power supply will not fit in that case. I have seen pictures.

If you had a case that was narrow and could stand upright on a stand, such a case might take up less desktop space or it might be mountable on the back of a VESA Monitor, with a USB2/3 Drive cold sit under the monitor.

You might be better off just using a MATX Case. Some MITX Cases are not much smaller than a MATX cases. Some are just shorter, but take up the same amount of desktop space or more if they are wider. The size of the case also limits size of the aftermarket CPU cooler you can use.

Everything is a tradeoff. You might go look at some of Assassin's Photos. He builds HTPC computers.
Assasins Hardware Guide
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2264328

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I suppose if you have a high power draw peripheral plugged into every USB port on the motherboard (usually 8 or 10), running at the same time, you might bump your power requirements above the stock PSU.

Lots and lots of USB coffee cup warmers, I guess.

 

[Zap]

Everything is a tradeoff.

Exactly. Some of us willingly trade big ATX PSUs for small cases. It takes some more thought, planning and sacrifice than just tossing an ATX PSU into any random "gaming" mid tower case and calling it a day. However, properly chosen parts can work fine for years, even with a smaller-than-ATX PSU.

tl;dr Don't be size-ist.

 

[you2]

Too bad you're in Boston. Otherwise I could show you what a BQ656 looks like (different PSU, no bulge side panel but otherwise same as BQW656) as well as some other SFF cases such as the Mini Box M350 and ISK 300-150.

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I suspect I could be in most places and not be in the right place
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I think it will likely be the 110 or bsq but I will likely go with an external usb drive rather than internal even with the bsq. I sent pictures/dimensions and am waiting for a response from my parents. I thought it would take hours but I fear now it will take weeks. I also found an I3 dell for $430 (with 6GB of ram) or G2020 with 4GB of ram for $300. If I wan to go $450 I can get a dell with 8GB ram (i3 and B75 chipset). That's almost less than it would cost for me to build it (though the home case for dell ultra slim is ughly as hell).
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I've seen the 310 before and it wsn't so bad though I didn't really study it. The others I haven't seen. If it were up to me I'd go with the bsq (though I would like to see a review on the psu) or sg05. I think (from pictures) the SG05 is nicer looking and while twice as large a good chunk of the extra space is vertical (though you could stand the bsq up like a book and shove it back into the bookcase though that would do crap for ventilization).

I was a bit concern witht he external usb dvd drawing 25 watts esp if you use it for boot. Also microcenter has the G1620 for $34.

 

[Alan G]

I just did a build for my wife with the Lian Li PC-Q27 case: http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-q27/ It's passively cooled by the PSU and an ATX unit slides right in. It has a standard size drive bay for the optical drive. I posted a picture of the build: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35158259&postcount=399 so you can see the issues with building in a small case. This was a bit over the top computer given the components. I didn't like the sound of the Silverstone CPU cooler and put the Intel stock cooler in. It's quite and looks quite nice.

 

[you2]

The case does look nice; it is similar (in size) to the sg05 but perhaps better cooling and I htink it removes the sfx requirement on the psu.

 

[Alan G]

The case does look nice; it is similar (in size) to the sg05 but perhaps better cooling and I htink it removes the sfx requirement on the psu.

Correct, it takes an ATX PSU. I did a volume calculation and there is about 40% more volume in the Lian Li case than in the SG05. I didn't put a optical drive in the build I did as it wasn't needed. However, I'm going to use the same case for a home theater build and will put a Blu-Ray reader in.

 

[Zap]

I think (from pictures) the SG05 is nicer looking and while twice as large a good chunk of the extra space is vertical (though you could stand the bsq up like a book and shove it back into the bookcase though that would do crap for ventilization).

I was a bit concern witht he external usb dvd drawing 25 watts esp if you use it for boot.

If you want even smaller footprint, the BQS and ISK 110 can be VESA mounted to the back of most monitors, though that would probably render the optical drive bay pointless since you can't reach it.

Why would external USB DVD drives use 25W? A USB port is unable to put out that much power. The "standard" of USB 2.0 is 500mA into 5V, which is 2.5W, not 25W.

You can get the Antec ISK 110 VESA and mount it to the back of the monitor for zero footprint, and then get one of those upright USB DVD drives (Asus makes a lot of 'em).

 

[Alan G]

Why would external USB DVD drives use 25W? A USB port is unable to put out that much power. The "standard" of USB 2.0 is 500mA into 5V, which is 2.5W, not 25W.

Quite right, though the ASUS DVD external drive that I just bought for my wife's computer (for the really rare occasion that she needs it) has two USB plugs in series so that the drive get's adequate power (at least this is what ASUS says).

 

[Zap]

Quite right, though the ASUS DVD external drive that I just bought for my wife's computer (for the really rare occasion that she needs it) has two USB plugs in series so that the drive get's adequate power (at least this is what ASUS says).

That would be 5W max.

I have an external Samsung that has the twin plugs, but I've never had to use the second plug.

 

[piasabird]

They also make These usb Chargers that plug into the wall for USB Powered devices. Some cell phones can charge off a USB device.

I would kind of like to play around with a Q27 case. I wonder if you can get an adapter that can hold both a slim DVD and a 2.5 or 3.5 HD in the DVD Bay.

Something like this?
http://www.amazon.com/5-25-Metal-Tra.../dp/B005638FUI

 

[you2]

I just went by a chart which said hte rw drive would use 25 watt when burning. Anyways parts have been ordered. At request I went with the BQS656 (and external samsung dvd-rw).
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I spent $15 more than optimal at time of order ($7 more for the cpu because I didn't want to spend an hour walking to microcenter; $5 more for the crucial m4 so I could use two stores instead of three; and $3 more for the dvd drive because I thought he blue looked intereesting.
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I'll post images and comments after I put the thing together and try it. I was going to order a killawatt P4400 out of curiosity to measure watt usage but I was told this device was unreliable; if you can suggest a reliable one and it isn't too expensive I might give that a try.
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To be honest I think if I were building this box for myself and not parents I would go with the silverstone sg05 or sg06 and the season sfx 300 psu ($42) - but on the bright side the bsq should fit in my carryon for easy transport.
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My normal burn in is to run it for 12-24 hours with prime 95 using all 4GB of ram. Normal load will be much lighter but it will be on 24/7.
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If there is an issue at a later date i can always replace the psu with a pico-psu (though it is a bit of a waste).
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I was very surprise that I could buy a dell computer with 6GB of ram and b75 chipset (ultraslim case which is 12x12x4) for $429; though it has a 500GB drive instead of an ssd.
(I went with a G1620; the dell has an i3)
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If you want even smaller footprint, the BQS and ISK 110 can be VESA mounted to the back of most monitors, though that would probably render the optical drive bay pointless since you can't reach it.

Why would external USB DVD drives use 25W? A USB port is unable to put out that much power. The "standard" of USB 2.0 is 500mA into 5V, which is 2.5W, not 25W.

You can get the Antec ISK 110 VESA and mount it to the back of the monitor for zero footprint, and then get one of those upright USB DVD drives (Asus makes a lot of 'em).

 

[Zap]

I would kind of like to play around with a Q27 case. I wonder if you can get an adapter that can hold both a slim DVD and a 2.5 or 3.5 HD in the DVD Bay.

Something like this?
http://www.amazon.com/5-25-Metal-Tra.../dp/B005638FUI

I had one of these for a Lian Li PC-T7R that I used to have. Did the job, but was expensive.

I was going to order a killawatt P4400 out of curiosity to measure watt usage but I was told this device was unreliable; if you can suggest a reliable one and it isn't too expensive I might give that a try.

It is reliable. It is just not always 100% accurate. I think you have to spend $60-100 for a unit with better accuracy rate, and that still could not guarantee 100% accuracy. I think you worry too much. Buy one as part of your "toolkit" because it is really that useful.

My normal burn in is to run it for 12-24 hours with prime 95 using all 4GB of ram. Normal load will be much lighter but it will be on 24/7.

I usually don't bother "burning in" systems that are not overclocked. I used to do that back when I worked at a shop since we could advertise that the systems are fully tested, but out of hundreds/thousands of rigs I can't remember a single one that a burn-in caught a problem that building it and installing Windows did not catch.

Note that with a small case you may get heat related errors when torture testing that you would never get in daily use.

I was very surprise that I could buy a dell computer with 6GB of ram and b75 chipset (ultraslim case which is 12x12x4) for $429; though it has a 500GB drive instead of an ssd.

It is usually not very cost effective to build a lower end computer, versus buying a big brand pre-built system, especially if it were on sale.

What BYO gives you is better cost at the higher end, plus choices that the big brands won't give you.

For instance many companies seem to like fleecing gamers by only offering better GPUs with top end CPUs when that isn't always needed, plus much higher margins with gaming rigs. Also, an SSD can make a low end rig feel like a million bucks, but companies don't want to give low end rigs an option for an SSD, but instead reserve that option only for higher end rigs.

 

[you2]

I usually don't bother "burning in" systems that are not overclocked. I used to do that back when I worked at a shop since we could advertise that the systems are fully tested, but out of hundreds/thousands of rigs I can't remember a single one that a burn-in caught a problem that building it and installing Windows did not catch.

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I mostly do this to make sure the ram is good; I've found that prime95 does a better job than memtest and twice I've run into low bit error rate on new ram - i first noticed the issue when the system crashed once every 3 or 4 days; but running prime95 i could generate an error once every 4 or 5 hours.
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Do you have a better suggestion for testing the new ram?

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It is usually not very cost effective to build a lower end computer, versus buying a big brand pre-built system, especially if it were on sale.

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Yea. I think the ssd is more reliable than the hdd; and the 'home' dell ultra slim is butt ughly. The business version is not so bad. Oh well if this system develop stability issues I'll wish I had gone with the dell.
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You know - its not my fault its a dell.

 

[Zap]

Do you have a better suggestion for testing the new ram?

Memtest? You want to make sure you have airflow over the memory because you can get heat related issues that won't happen outside of these torture tests.

Also, I've found that name brand "generic looking" RAM tends to be reasonably reliable. By that, I mean buy some Crucial or Kingston or other name brand RAM that doesn't have fancy heatspreaders, isn't super high speed or super low latency, and doesn't require extra voltage.

 

[you2]

I went with
MEM 2Gx2|GSK F3-10600CL9D-4GBPK R

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231179
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mostly because I've been happy with g.skill; normally i try to reward small companies that give me decent service.... I don't know why it seems stupid i guess. Anyways they are plain jane ram though they have a bit more in the way of heat spreader than the generics.
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your original suggestion was:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...&SID=u00000687
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Anyways the case won't be here till middle of next week so I won't be able to do much before then. I'm not expecting issues though to be honest I have no method to detect power related issues; if it is bad memory or similar I can handle it but I don't have any method to measure load on the various rails et all. Kind of wish I knew how so I could determine why my parents current computer is crashing (the psu is 7 years old so I'm marginally supicious it might be unstable voltage).
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Memtest? You want to make sure you have airflow over the memory because you can get heat related issues that won't happen outside of these torture tests.

Also, I've found that name brand "generic looking" RAM tends to be reasonably reliable. By that, I mean buy some Crucial or Kingston or other name brand RAM that doesn't have fancy heatspreaders, isn't super high speed or super low latency, and doesn't require extra voltage.

 

[cbn]

I'm building a new computer for the parents and I'd like something fairly small (smaller than dell ultra slim which is something like 7x12x12).
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The build will be b75 or z77 (probably b75); G2020; gskill 4gb, dvd (or slim dvd) drive (dvd is required for them and a bit of a killer in my search); sdd or 350GB drive (undecided); and psu (maybe silverstone sfx but i'd prefer something cheaper but reliable if possible - they leave the computer on al the time and I don't want to fly home to fix it)
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Anyways the closest case I've found so far is:
Silverstone SG05BB
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Which is still marginally large @ ( 8.74" x 6.93" x 10.8 newegg dimension) (I only need one drive bay and one external drive bay and no gpu as the g2020 has hd3000)
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Hum maybe that is the smallest I will get the links:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811163208
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER
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(maybe this post is silly and that might be the smallest I will find - I think amazon dimensions are wrong or perhaps the outside box)

My two complaints with the above is psu and case (to be honest I'm not sure if this is the right forum since the question covers more than case).
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Anyways any suggestions for alternative case/psu ?
(some other options I've looked at - shuttle pre-built system, intel nuc prebuilt system -
most of the prebuilt system use h61 which is so so - the intel nuc seems interesting but it is rather pricey - the above should cost between $250 and $350 - the intel nuc alone (without processor) is $300 and (more imporrtant it doesn't have a vga option and no slot for dvdi)

Here is another case to look at:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...irtualParent=1

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=411

It is a good deal smaller than the Sugo SG05 (7 liters vs 10.8 liters). It also doesn't have the SFX PSU bundled with it so you can add your own.

About the only limitation I can think of is the inability to to use both 3.5" HDD and Slim Optical drive at the same time (due to that Multipurpose 4-1 bracket, needed for th e optical drive, being the only place to accommodate the 3.5" HDD). According to the description though you should have no problem using Slim Optical drive with 2.5" drives.

 

[you2]

that is 8inch by 4inch by 14inch

4h x 8w x 14 l
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so basically very long - sort of like a stand-alone dvd player or vhs player.
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I actually considered something similar to this but i think it was a slightly different model - not sure.

 

[Zap]

I actually considered something similar to this but i think it was a slightly different model - not sure.

There's a Milo ML03B and ML05B. Similar in layout and low profile. 03 uses ATX PSU and mATX mobo. 05 uses SFX PSU and ITX mobo.