Looking for subwoofer advice

[Biozeminade]

I'm putting together a modest 5.1 sat/sub system for my computer. The goal is to hook my soundcard up to a receiver via optical, which the soundcard does fully support. I already have a set of four Polk RM6751s (ugly, I know) as well as an RM6752 for the center channel.

I've been looking for a decent entry level sub to throw in with the system. I'm willing to spend around $200 max on the sub, but I'd like to keep it around $150 or lower if possible. I understand that a sub in this price range won't necessarily have heart stopping, skull pressurizing, neighbor enraging power, but I don't need anything too powerful anyway. It's going to be used in a relatively small room (roughly 12x12) for music mostly, as well as games, and the occasional movie. Music is my main concern with games being a close second. Here's what I've found so far:

Velodyne VX-11 - Velodyne has a great reputation, and I've only read good things about this sub so far. The fact that this sub doesn't have too many reviews on any site I've looked at is a little off-putting. In any case, audio product reviews are always subjective to a degree (amirite?) and this is what I'm leaning towards at the moment.

BIC V1020 10" - I've heard good things about this one. It would match my Polk sats in terms of ugliness (lol) which can be seen as a plus for consistency. It features a rather impressive frequency range of 26-180 Hz, which is hard to believe given how (relatively) cheap it is. What gives me second thoughts about it is the fact that it's down-firing, combined with that frequency range, makes me think that it isn't really designed at all for music and more for watching movies with LFE.

BIC America V1220 12" - Similar to the BIC listed above, only it's a 12". Not really sure that would suit my needs, as I've heard 12" subs, while more powerful, also tend to sound muddier (confirm/deny). In any case, it isn't that much more expensive then the 10", so it's something to consider.

If someone wants to recommend a sub that isn't one of those three I listed, feel free to go ahead and so so.

After I pick a sub, I'll move on to looking at 5.1 receivers. Feel free to recommend a receiver to me as well . Speaking of which, do receivers commonly have equalizers built into them, or am I going to have to look into getting a separate hardware equalizer for that? Yeah...I'm not even pretending to be knowledgeable about all this.

 

[f4phantom2500]

this seems pretty overkill for a computer, especially in a room that small. i picked up a set of z-5500's from craigslist for $160 a couple of years ago for use in my bedroom, which is slightly larger than your room, and it's quite good for my uses (music, tv, games, more or less in that order). plus you dont have to deal with a real receiver, which can be quite bulky for a room that small, yet these speakers still offer the functionality of one, even offering s/pdif connections.

now, i can't really say how the sound quality will compare between the z-5500 (or z-680 for that matter, as they can also be had for cheap) and the speakers that you bought, but again in a room this small they sound quite good. that being said, they certainly have their limitations, but remember that these speakers were designed specifically with gaming in mind.

if i were in your situation, i would look into getting a set of z-5500 or z-680 from craigslist (i wouldn't spend more than $150~$200). if you're not satisfied with the performance that they offer, you can just turn around and resell them for what you paid, then spend the money on a sub, then continue to have a useless system until you drop even more cash on a receiver. but if you are satisfied, then go ahead and just sell all the satellites that you currently have and pocket the cash.

further, if music is your primary concern, you should at least consider selling off the satellites you have now and going for a single pair of higher end speakers (and a sub later, if you want). granted that this won't be surround sound, which could be detrimental in games, a good pair of stereo speakers aligned for proper stereo imaging can provide quite a surprisingly good soundstage, especially in a room that small; in short, you may not even need surround sound for games. besides that, music will sound better than with the setup you're going for now. i have a set of alpine SPX-13PRO component speakers installed in the kick panels in my car, with no other speakers than the sub, and they provide excellent imaging; nobody who listens to them in the front seat believes me when i tell them that there aren't any rear speakers haha. hell if i didn't know any better i might agree with them.

 

[calvie]

Go for the Bic 10 or 12. Good sound is good sound, doesn't matter if the room small. The Polk that you already have should sound a lot better than the z5500 or z680.

 

[Tiamat]

The muddiness of a subwoofer matters not on woofer cone area. It matters mostly on if you place the subwoofer in an ideal spot within the room, the room has good room dimensions (none of the room dimensions are mathematically related to each other in terms of multiples), the listening position is in a spot in the room where the room modes do not stack. Further, the design of the subwoofer as a whole (cabinetry, tuning, driver, circuitry).

Audio is, unfortunately, not something you can "toss into a room". Great audio requires a good understanding of wave physics.

Either one of those subwoofers will be fine. The 12x12 room dimensions, setup constraints, and seating location constraints will be the determining factor for audio performance in your room. If you want to learn more about maximizing what you have by optimizing setup, shoot me a PM and I'll respond to this thread. Otherwise, if you are not interested in such things, it would be a waste of time for me to post such advice here since it is not short.

BTW, I do not believe you can ever have too much subwoofer for a room.

 

[Biozeminade]

Thanks for all the advice so far. I actually already have a z5500, and while it is respectable in a lot of ways (lots of inputs, pretty good bang for your buck, good for games, low hassle, etc), I wasn't too impressed with it. The sats sound kind of hollow, which can be fixed with an equalizer. The bass is just odd. Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of it, but I thought it sounded very "lumpy" with strange volume humps in certain frequency ranges (particularly in between 80-120 Hz). It has a strong effect on music which at times will completely destroy it.

 

[f4phantom2500]

Thanks for all the advice so far. I actually already have a z5500, and while it is respectable in a lot of ways (lots of inputs, pretty good bang for your buck, good for games, low hassle, etc), I wasn't too impressed with it. The sats sound kind of hollow, which can be fixed with an equalizer. The bass is just odd. Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of it, but I thought it sounded very "lumpy" with strange volume humps in certain frequency ranges (particularly in between 80-120 Hz). It has a strong effect on music which at times will completely destroy it.

i agree, as great as the z-5500, all things considered, it does leave a lot to be desired. the sats aren't very dynamic, which is expected since they have a single woofer (tweeter?) instead of a dedicated mid-woofer and tweeter, and the sub is not very good in terms of sound quality; it sounds quite muddy and generally sloppy to my ears...but then again it was designed mainly for gaming, where the majority of the consumer base is more interested in bass quantity than quality; the same reason why you can get a couple of subs for your car that will set off car alarms, but sound like crap, for cheaper than 1 good sounding sub. since you are discerning enough of a listener to notice the faults of the z-5500, i would really suggest that you ditch the sats you have now and just go for a single pair of better speakers...in the long run you'll be glad you did, i think.

 

[Biozeminade]

i agree, the subwoofer in the z-5500 set is not very good in terms of sound quality; it sounds quite muddy and generally sloppy to my ears...but then again it was designed mainly for gaming, where the majority of the consumer base is more interested in bass quantity than quality; the same reason why you can get a couple of subs for your car that will set off car alarms, but sound like crap, for cheaper than 1 good sounding sub. since you are discerning enough of a listener to notice the faults of the z-5500, i would really suggest that you ditch the sats you have now and just go for a single pair of better speakers...in the long run you'll be glad you did, i think.

I've heard this is the way to go from many different sources but I wasn't quite ready to ditch 5.1, which I like for games and to a lesser extent, movies. I may some day go ahead and upgrade 2 front sats and maybe the center channel to something better. Baby steps, hehe.

 

[f4phantom2500]

I've heard this is the way to go from many different sources but I wasn't quite ready to ditch 5.1, which I like for games and to a lesser extent, movies. I may some day go ahead and upgrade 2 front sats and maybe the center channel to something better. Baby steps, hehe.

honestly i think the best baby step approach is to start out with 2 channel, then ad a sub, then if you still think surround is necessary, spring for the 2 rear channels and center. that way you never have to compromise sound quality and always have a respectably well-rounded system, regardless of where you decide to stop. if you were more focused on games than music then i could see your point, but really 2 channel stereo is more ideal for music and, in my opinion, just as ideal for tv and movies, especially since 2 higher end speakers in a room that small will be able to fill it with sound better than the ones you have now (maybe not as well as those in 5.1, but certainly looking at each speaker individually, the higher end ones will provide a fuller soundstage).

 

[Biozeminade]

honestly i think the best baby step approach is to start out with 2 channel, then ad a sub, then if you still think surround is necessary, spring for the 2 rear channels and center. that way you never have to compromise sound quality and always have a respectably well-rounded system, regardless of where you decide to stop. if you were more focused on games than music then i could see your point, but really 2 channel stereo is more ideal for music and, in my opinion, just as ideal for tv and movies, especially since 2 higher end speakers in a room that small will be able to fill it with sound better than the ones you have now (maybe not as well as those in 5.1, but certainly looking at each speaker individually, the higher end ones will provide a fuller soundstage).

It's definitely something I'll be considering, but all the same, I already have the sats so I figure I may as well just try them out before I decide to change my plan.

I'm leaning towards the BIC 10" now. I'm curious though, why the BIC(s) over the Velodyne?

 

[vi edit]

Got any room and workworking ability? I'd got with a 10" or 12" sealed Dayton Reference with a 250 w/ plate amp. A little over $200 in parts and $15 in MDF and you'll have a seriously rocking, low distortion subwoofer.

 

[Biozeminade]

Got any room and workworking ability? I'd got with a 10" or 12" sealed Dayton Reference with a 250 w/ plate amp. A little over $200 in parts and $15 in MDF and you'll have a seriously rocking, low distortion subwoofer.

Space for the sub is going to be somewhat limited. There's really only one place in the room that's viable to put it (which fortunately is a pretty good place for sub placement audio-wise). I've got about 20" length and 15" width to work with. Height doesn't really matter.

 

[s44]

Don't forget to check your local Craigslist. I got an Audioengine A8 locally for hilariously little.

 

[f4phantom2500]

Don't forget to check your local Craigslist. I got an Audioengine A8 locally for hilariously little.

definitely definitely do this. stuff is cheap on craigslist, obviously just make sure the guy will let you listen to it first before you buy it, and i would advise you to wiggle the chords in the back of the sub to see if it causes it to cut out. as silly as it might sound, i actually have this problem with my z-5500, which is probably why i got them so cheap...but it's not a serious problem, since as long as the sub is sitting on the chord in question (the one that goes between the control pod and the sub), it's perfectly fine, even if i crank it. but yea, even if the driver itself is fine, if the terminals are bad then...bah!

anyways, good luck with all of this, hopefully you can please your ears without spending too much cash from here on out

you may be able to find someone who will cut you a deal on a receiver/sub combo...or it might be cheaper to buy them individually...in any case, you should be able to find both of these components for far cheaper on craigslist than any store, if you look around.

 

[electroju]

A sealed or acoustic suspension type for the subwoofer is better for music because it is more accurate. Bass refex type of subwoofers are slower, so they just put out the bass and distort the quality.

A great subwoofer depends how much air it moves. The watts will not tell you anything of the performance. For a $150 budget, go the DIY route. The DIY route gives you a better bang for the buck for subwoofers. You could get the following and put it in a 2 cubic feet box.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-490

You do not need a subwoofer amplifier, but you need a passive filter.

If you care for the quality of the music, your tight budget will hurt the music. Speakers built using plastic for the enclosure is poor for sound.

I have not heard of the company BIC America. They seem cheap. I would not buy it.

 

[Howard]

Great audio requires a good understanding of wave physics.

or lots of rules of thumb, or lots of time with a measuring setup

 

[Tiamat]

or lots of rules of thumb, or lots of time with a measuring setup

or all of the above

 

[Howard]

A sealed or acoustic suspension type for the subwoofer is better for music because it is more accurate. Bass refex type of subwoofers are slower, so they just put out the bass and distort the quality.

A lot of people say this, but I recommend listening to both types before deciding whether you like one type over the other. I think vented subs are great and have lots of advantages and they aren't necessarily inferior in terms of SQ relative to sealed subs.

You do not need a subwoofer amplifier, but you need a passive filter.

The receiver will have a crossover for the sub.

 

[Tiamat]

A sealed or acoustic suspension type for the subwoofer is better for music because it is more accurate. Bass refex type of subwoofers are slower, so they just put out the bass and distort the quality.

This is simply not correct. Sealed subwoofers are not necessarily more accurate, they do tend to have less group delay, but a decent ported subwoofer is not going to sound slower than a sealed subwoofer. Sealed subwoofers are generally less efficient so they need more power for the same output. Ported subwoofers generally are tuned lower than a sealed subwoofer so that they can grab more of the lower bass frequencies.

Any subwoofer not selected with at least the following things in mind can easily be made to sound horrible:

1. Room size: If the room is vast, you need more subwoofer.
2. Room placement: If you place the subwoofer in a non-ideal spot, it will excite room modes in the worst ways.

3. Listening position: If you are in a non-ideal spot while listening, you will have very severe aberations in frequency and decay response causing the bass to sound terrible.

Good mid-entry level ported subwoofers
1. eD A2-250 for 350$
2. HSU VTF-1 for 380$

Good entry level ported subwoofers:
1. BIC H-100 (replaced by F12 I believe and can be found on amazon.com)
2. Dayton Sub-120

Some of these are in the sticky thread at the top of this sub-forum.

Quite frankly, there aren't many if any good sealed subwoofers below 400$ because sealed subwoofer generally need more elaborate electronics within their amplifiers in order to shape the frequency response to have any sort of low bass.

 

[Howard]

Quite frankly, there aren't many if any good sealed subwoofers below 400$ because sealed subwoofer generally need more elaborate electronics within their amplifiers in order to shape the frequency response to have any sort of low bass.

Transforming circuits are sooo cheap, you don't even need any expensive stuff like inductors. Maybe some subs have circuitry with adjustable transfer functions but I think most decent subs just go with a one-size-fits-all approach and have a somewhat gradual rolloff; many rooms will boost the bass sufficiently.

 

[Tiamat]

Transforming circuits are sooo cheap, you don't even need any expensive stuff like inductors. Maybe some subs have circuitry with adjustable transfer functions but I think most decent subs just go with a one-size-fits-all approach and have a somewhat gradual rolloff; many rooms will boost the bass sufficiently.

With the small size of the cabinets in the <400$ range, there would have to be a robust enough driver and amplifier to be able to push <40hz bass at a reasonable volume. While the circuit itself might be inexpensive, everything else will add up in cost esp. with a smaller cabinet; but i'm just preaching to the choir ;p

 

[Howard]

With the small size of the cabinets in the <400$ range, there would have to be a robust enough driver and amplifier to be able to push <40hz bass at a reasonable volume. While the circuit itself might be inexpensive, everything else will add up in cost esp. with a smaller cabinet; but i'm just preaching to the choir ;p

that's not what you siad

 

[vi edit]

I've got a Dayton Reference 12" in an 18x18x18 cube and powering it with a salvaged 200w plate amp from an ancient KLH subwoofer that died on me. It puts out some downright suprising output in the 25hz-30hz range.

It doesn't take enormous amounts of power to drive a sub. Maybe to xmax on high excursion drivers. But the Dayton isn't one of those. It does quite a bit without excessive power being thrown at it. We've really gotten overly critical on numbers and measurements about "what's best".

 

[funboy6942]

I got the BIC 12" and have been more then impressed with it. Once it got broken it its when it started to really shine. Not muddy, IMO, and I like the down firing or it gives more location possibilities. It really makes the house thump when you want it to.