Looking for a thin and light notebook

[hopejr]

Calm down guys. The Mac vs. PC war is not worth the effort. I've switched over to Mac this year because of the OS more than anything (which continues to impress me), and I've had no problems getting the software I need (except for SOME games, which I never have time for these days anyway).

A survey may be a good idea, but I know from experience that many PC users (including myself until just this year) didn't like Macs mainly because of the problems they had in the past (as many haven't used them recently) - a useless OS, lack of programs, lack of hardware availability (maybe it still is an issue), lack of compatibility, and price. Now, OS X is state-of-the-art, with excellent compatibility with windows (I should know, I use both together), stable on the most part, gives the user ability to do most of the stuff they can do on linux, etc. The OS is no longer that useless piece of garbage now known as "Classic" (Mac OS 9 and below). In the price department, Apple notebooks are on par with PC notebooks, but lets face the facts, most ppl would rather buy a PC desktop because they are cheaper than their Apple counterparts (I know it's an issue for me, but lets not forget the cheap eMac), even though the Apple desktops are very stylish, don't take up as much room, have a (IMO) superior OS and are bundled with heaps of software whose equivalents on the PC aren't cheap anyway. The issue with the one-button mouse is another that turns many PC users off, but they don't realise that any two to three-button mouse is compatible with OS X, including those with scroll wheels.

I know many people who haven't "switched" in a sense that they haven't switched completely (yet anyway). They still have PC desktops (mainly because of the price issue) and decided to take a risk by trying out a mac laptop. They love it and much rather it to their PC, because they actually tried it out. If they had the money (or if Apple got their act together and dropped their prices), they would definitely buy an Apple desktop.

I know some people may not like OS X as much as Windows, just like many people rather Linux and vice versa.

Apple has opened about 100 Apple Stores around the US and in London (much to the detriment of Apple resellers), and most people who walk in the door are Windows users. They are finally getting the public to take notice of what they can offer, and many people are becoming interested. However, instead of walking out of the shop with an eMac, iBook G4, iMac G5, or whatever, they mostly only walk out with an iPod. Apple is seeing that as a failure on their part (the main purpose of those stores was to convert Windows users), but many people switch after getting iPods (I know quite a few of those too). When people see the quality of Apple products, many switch. This has also happened when people have seen my 12" iBook G4 and have been extremely impressed with it.

Moving right along... Let's not lose sight of the fact that this thread was not supposed to turn into a Mac vs. PC war (I think I might have accidently continued it on, oops 😛). It was posted because someone wanted to know what good thin and light notebooks there are that they could choose from.

PS, I noticed all the brackets I was using, sorry about this, but I'm a programmer and have a habit of using them.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Aha, but you cannot take a Microsoft Access application and run it on FileMaker Pro. Nor can you take a Visual Studio .NET project and use it on a Mac; neither can you provide functional parity for thousands of other programs.

No one needs to use Microsoft Access if they have FileMaker Pro. Now name me some software that wont run on the Mac.

Notice that the reason people use Microsoft Office is largely because it's well-known, and because other people use it to create proprietary-format files. So just to develop a Microsoft Office competitor that runs on Mac isn't enough; it also has to have perfect support for Office file formats. Even the Mac version of Office from Microsoft is not perfect, and OpenOffice.org (which I am currently using), while not bad, isn't perfect either.

I have never said that the Mac version of Microsoft Office is perfect. Why are you telling me this? We dont need a Microsoft Office competitor, because Microsoft Office is probably the best office app for the Mac.

Now take this logic and apply it to all the other popular software packages out there. Even when a company develops for the Mac themselves, often the code is significantly different, and often doesn't integrate perfectly with the PC version of the same software. It's often even written and maintained by different developers at the company.

Why is this relevant? My question was: Name some software that wont run on the Mac.

The vast majority of software development isn't done for Macs. Don't you know that? I never said that software isn't developed for the Mac, or that it's impossible to do any computing on a Mac. I'm saying that Mac doesn't have across-the-board support for software that people want and need (and already get easily) from their PCs.

You said software is limited on the Mac. Can you quote me on when I said that you said software isnt developed on the Mac? The rest of what you said in that paragraph is opinionated, and cannot be used as a valid argument. Post facts, not opinions.

Ask anyone besides a sandal-wearing Mac fan and you'll get corroboration for this. It's why people don't switch. Call it BS if you want; slinging crap on some web board won't offend me, and you won't achieve anything at all. You definitely won't convince anyone to switch to using a Mac that wasn't considering it before. If you doubt me, it might be instructional to run a survey on Anandtech and ask PC users why they haven't switched to Macs.

I can care less if some one does not want to switch to a Mac. Thats their problem, not mine. And I am not trying to offend you. Why do you assume that I am trying to offend you? Because I said that saying software is limited on the Mac is BS? How is that supposed to be offensive? And are you saying Mac users wear sandals? Care to back this up? If not, you should not post nonsense. Thats quite childish. dont you think?

You also didn't mention the fact that hardware choices are seriously limited with Macs. That's bad for the consumer, and bad for Apple; they've chosen all along to go their own route, instead of trying to establish standards for which everyone could create hardware. Now many individual PC hardware manufacturers and resellers have higher hardware revenues than Apple.

And how did hardware come into this? The question was: Name some software that wont run on the Mac. Yes, Apple did decide to go their own route, and they are doing very well too. Dont believe me? Look it up.

You can stick with your PC. Thats your decision. Its not like anyone is trying to make you switch in the first place. I will stick with my Mac, and to me, my software is not limited. I use Flash MX, Dreamweaver MX, FileMaker Pro, Adobe Photoshop 7 and I play some games. Games like Unreal Tournament 2004, Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4. And hardware dont seem limited to me either. Im planning on upgrading my Powermac G4 400 to Dual 1.3GHz G4 processors, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, Serial ATA PCI Card. Ive got many upgrade options for my G4.

Ive also got a PC, AMD XP 2600+, Nvidia FX 5200 Ultra, 1.6 gigs of RAM, Top of the line ASUS motherboard(not sure if it still is), 76 gig Raptor Serial ATA hard drive. Its wicked fast. I tryed playing Doom 3 on it, but it seems to be very GPU intensive, so I am going to upgrade the video card to the Nvidia 6800 Ultra, probably the 256mb card, but I have my eye on the 128 mb card right now. But of course, I love my Macs a whole lot more. 😉

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Yes, this wasnt supposed to be a Mac vs PC thread, but one cannot say the Mac is limited in Software. This is not true, and many people know that. People who usually this have probably have never used a Mac.

 

[hopejr]

People who usually (say) this have probably have never used a Mac.

I agree wholeheartedly (however, I'm also careful about such claims. Some may have used a Mac once because they had to and weren't open minded enough to take notice of how good it was). I also agree with the fact that Macs are upgradable, etc. Especially the iMac G5, PowerMac G4/G5, etc. Don't believe me? Look it up! Macs are no longer "welded" shut. But seriously, we need to get back on topic with this thread, and maybe consider starting a new thread where people can argue till the cows come home on Macs vs. PCs.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

My G4 is fully upgradeable. There is so much I can do to it. My eMac, however, is not as upgradeable. I can just add memory, an airport card, a new hard drive, and a new cd rom drive. Thats all. Thats why I purchased the G4. And I love it so!! 😀

I too agree we should get back on topic. This Mac vs PC thing can go on because both sides will have valid points. Its just not something worth arguing about.

On Topic I believe the iBook for $999 is a great deal. Its a very nice looking laptop. I want to go to the Apple Store, and try one out my self. Im really looking into getting a laptop too. To vfouquereau: I think the iBook would really suit your needs. But if you are looking into a PC laptop, I am really fond of the Sony laptops, although they are high priced. You should check out both an Apple Store or your local Best Buy or Circuit City and see what you like.

Good Luck!!

 

[jvarszegi]

Thin Lizzy, your arguments are silly. Hardware came into this because I brought it up! It's a huge reason why people prefer PCs, besides the lack of support for software people want and need. PC hardware vendors offer more choice than Apple ever will.

I already gave you one big one: Visual Studio .NET won't run on the Mac. Neither will most games, as I've said and you've implicitly allowed. I don't have time to compose a big list of software titles just to satisfy your inane request.

If you really want to settle this, please start a survey and ask PC users why they prefer PCs. They'll tell you over and over again exactly what I've been saying.

Apple is doing very well, eh? Wired magazine has run a big article in the last year analyzing Apple's complete failure to capitalize on their potential. Mac was in danger of sliding into bankruptcy pretty recently, and was bailed out by none other than Microsoft! The iPod and iTunes are the last great hope of Apple, but they are being assailed on all sides in the marketplace. These are facts. Your poorly-presented opinions are about what I expected.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Thin Lizzy, your arguments are silly. Hardware came into this because I brought it up! It's a huge reason why people prefer PCs, besides the lack of support for software people want and need. PC hardware vendors offer more choice than Apple ever will.

Ummm. We were arguing about software, not hardware. And hardware is not limited. I am still able to fix up my old G4, and others have upgrade options for their G5's, and older Powermacs.

I already gave you one big one: Visual Studio .NET won't run on the Mac. Neither will most games, as I've said and you've implicitly allowed. I don't have time to compose a big list of software titles just to satisfy your inane request.

So since the Mac cant run Visual Studio .NET, that makes the Mac limited in software? If there some other software titles, then tell me some more. And what is this "Most games" you are talking about? Halo 2? Half Life?

Apple is doing very well, eh? Wired magazine has run a big article in the last year analyzing Apple's complete failure to capitalize on their potential. Mac was in danger of sliding into bankruptcy pretty recently, and was bailed out by none other than Microsoft! The iPod and iTunes are the last great hope of Apple, but they are being assailed on all sides in the marketplace. These are facts. Your poorly-presented opinions are about what I expected.

Ummm. Last year? Why are you looking at such an old article? Look at some RECENT articles. And I am not the one using opinions here. You are. Most of your arguments consisted of opinions. I dont understand why you are saying my arguments are silly. Is using your opinions in your arguments not silly? Is saying Mac users wear sandals not silly?

If you really want to settle this, please start a survey and ask PC users why they prefer PCs. They'll tell you over and over again exactly what I've been saying.

And I will tell them my arguements, as they can be proven wrong when they say hardware or software is limited.

EDIT: By the way, Xcode substitutes for Microsoft's Visual Studio .NET. Xcode comes with Mac OS X version 10.3 Panther.

 

[hopejr]

It looks like there's a few bored people here today (including myself) who are posting to this thread continuously (as am I).
jvarszegi: MS VS .NET is not the be all and end all IDE. You can't even get it on linux/unix, so what's your problem? Yeah, you can use mono, but that's also available on Mac. XCode is an IDE on Mac which can be argued to be just as good as VS .NET, if not better (I know, again because I USE BOTH OF THEM!!!!!). XCode is a good IDE for Mac, MS VS .NET is a good IDE for Windows. Just stop being ignorant and acting like you know everything. It's annoying me! Take a look at the Apple Store and see all the software that is available for Mac (especially games). You will be surprised. Do some actual research before you start expressing opinions.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Originally posted by: hopejr
It looks like there's a few bored people here today (including myself) who are posting to this thread continuously (as am I).
jvarszegi: MS VS .NET is not the be all and end all IDE. You can't even get it on linux/unix, so what's your problem? Yeah, you can use mono, but that's also available on Mac. XCode is an IDE on Mac which can be argued to be just as good as VS .NET, if not better (I know, again because I USE BOTH OF THEM!!!!!). XCode is a good IDE for Mac, MS VS .NET is a good IDE for Windows. Just stop being ignorant and acting like you know everything. It's annoying me! Take a look at the Apple Store and see all the software that is available for Mac (especially games). You will be surprised. Do some actual research before you start expressing opinions.

Amen. :thumbsup:

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Well, the last Apple product I owned was an Apple IIGS. I talked to a lot of people about what they used for laptops, and despite being PC desktop users a lot of them used Apple laptops. I have an order for a 14" iBook that goes in on Monday, unless a better deal pops up on the Apple Thanksgiving sale page on their site tomorrow. In that case, I will order from there and cancel my existing order.

I'm not 100% set on the Macintosh laptop, though. I am still checking out PC laptops up to the last minute. The thing is, I fly out of here to Las Vegas on December 8th, and I need a laptop by then. I have a class I will have to finish remotely, papers to write, et cetera. I also wanted to load movies and music onto the HD, and I've already found corresponding Macintosh software to do it.

The problem is I will have only a couple of days with the iBook at most to learn OSX and figure out that software if that is what I finally purchase. Can you say crunch time? 😛

By the way, I looked at the 12" iBooks at my University's Technology Center. The screen seemed a bit tiny to me, but I did like the wireless Apple keyboard that they had for use with their laptops.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Just stick with the Apple laptop. You wont regret getting one. And OS X is very easy to use. My brother, a Die hard PC user, got used to OS X in minutes. I use to be a 100% OS 9 user, and after getting my eMac, which has panther installed, I found it very easy to use. Of course, I still cant ditch my OS 9, because I have a Scanner and a burner that only work under OS 9. And using Classic can be a hassle sometimes.

Your iBook will come with Panther installed. If you need any help looking for any particular software, I am here to help you. 🙂

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
Just stick with the Apple laptop. You wont regret getting one. And OS X is very easy to use. My brother, a Die hard PC user, got used to OS X in minutes. I use to be a 100% OS 9 user, and after getting my eMac, which has panther installed, I found it very easy to use. Of course, I still cant ditch my OS 9, because I have a Scanner and a burner that only work under OS 9. And using Classic can be a hassle sometimes.

Your iBook will come with Panther installed. If you need any help looking for any particular software, I am here to help you. 🙂

Well, I started posting over in ArsTechnica's Mac area initially, as I didn't realize we had any Mac users around here. 😛 I plan to use iTunes for ripping my CDs of course, and will probably start with OpenOffice for my papers since they are in .DOC format. MS Office is fairly cheap through the University Tech Center though, so it is tempting. Main thing I might have a problem with is networking it with my PC so I can dump my existing MP3 library to it.

For movies, someone recommended Mac-The-Ripper as well as some other programs. So I will just have to search them out or get links once I get my iBook.

The Apple Holiday Sale Page that I am hoping might allow me to get the same product I got through my University for a bit cheaper. Wish the sale would hurry up and go live.

 

[hopejr]

ShotgunSteven: networking OS X with windows is very easy. I do it. It's just a matter of clicking a check box in the Sharing panel in System Preferences. If you want to change the workgroup from the default "WORKGROUP", it is a little more complex, but if you need help, just PM me and I can help you with it (consists of changing a line in /etc/smb.conf).

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Well, if I wind up with the iBook, I will let you all know. I will no doubt run into problems, but hopefully nothing insurmountable in the short period of time I will have to learn to use it.

Anyone with a 12" iBook that can tell me about the screen? Does it bother your eyes over time? Screen size was one of the major reasons I went with the 14" iBook. Keyboard size too, though supposedly it has the same size one as the 12". I may opt for the wireless Apple keyboard whichever one I get. I used one at the Technology Center and it was pretty nice. 🙂

 

[imported_Lucifer]

We've got a couple of Mac users here, including me and hopejr. iTunes is good for ripping cd's but I use Roxio Toast. My favorite feature when I burn just a regular audio cd is I can use CD Text. iTunes doesnt do it. I love Microsoft Office. I installed it on my eMac, but not on my G4, because Office 2004 doesnt install on Mac OS 10.1.5. I have also heard of Mac The Ripper. I heard some good things about it. I think I heard about it on the Apple Discussions forums.

I know how to network with OS X Panther, but I dont think I understand it quite well. I was only able to network the Shared folder, even though on the PC, I shared the hard drive too. When I double click WORKGROUP, and double click the computer that is being shared, the Shared folder is only accesable, and not only that, I can type in anything for the password to access the PC. But I am still not able to access the hard drive. I havent been using Panther lately though. Ive been using OS 9 and 10.1.5, and I will try to get this networking thing going with Panther soon.

 

[hopejr]

ShotgunSteven: I happen to have a 12" iBook, and the screen size is sufficient for me. My last laptop was a 15" Clevo M400S with a 1400x1050 resolution and at first the 12" seemed small, but now it's fine. Didn't take long to get used to and I have no trouble with my eyes because of it. I have a friend with a 14", and the highest resolution he can get on it 1024x768 (same res as 12"). The keyboards on both the 12" and 14" is identical, there's just extra space around it on the 14".
Thin Lizzy: OS X uses Samba for windows file sharing and has a number of limitations in terms of share names that it can handle (same problem exists on the Linux version, and even Windows 98 and Me). Share names must be no longer than 11 characters in length, and can only consist of alphanumeric characters, '_', '-', and '.' IIRC. Also, any shares that start with '$' are hidden (for administrative purposes on windows). Try naming the share to something simple like 'C' or 'D' or whatever drive it is. I've had issues with my brother putting spaces in share names on his PC and I've had to ask him to change them so that I could access them.
The thing with the password is if you log into an share that anyone can access on the PC, it doesn't bother authenticating, so you can type in anything and it works. Only shares specific to certain users (i.e. Not simple file sharing) need a specific username and password typed in. Samba just asks to authenticate anyway.

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: hopejr
ShotgunSteven: I happen to have a 12" iBook, and the screen size is sufficient for me. My last laptop was a 15" Clevo M400S with a 1400x1050 resolution and at first the 12" seemed small, but now it's fine. Didn't take long to get used to and I have no trouble with my eyes because of it. I have a friend with a 14", and the highest resolution he can get on it 1024x768 (same res as 12"). The keyboards on both the 12" and 14" is identical, there's just extra space around it on the 14".
Thin Lizzy: OS X uses Samba for windows file sharing and has a number of limitations in terms of share names that it can handle (same problem exists on the Linux version, and even Windows 98 and Me). Share names must be no longer than 11 characters in length, and can only consist of alphanumeric characters, '_', '-', and '.' IIRC. Also, any shares that start with '$' are hidden (for administrative purposes on windows). Try naming the share to something simple like 'C' or 'D' or whatever drive it is. I've had issues with my brother putting spaces in share names on his PC and I've had to ask him to change them so that I could access them.
The thing with the password is if you log into an share that anyone can access on the PC, it doesn't bother authenticating, so you can type in anything and it works. Only shares specific to certain users (i.e. Not simple file sharing) need a specific username and password typed in. Samba just asks to authenticate anyway.

Thanks for the information. I may play around with the builder a bit and see what kind of price I could get for a 12" built like the 14" I ordered. If the price is not that much different, I will probably stick with the 14".

 

[jvarszegi]

Originally posted by: hopejr
It looks like there's a few bored people here today (including myself) who are posting to this thread continuously (as am I).
jvarszegi: MS VS .NET is not the be all and end all IDE. You can't even get it on linux/unix, so what's your problem? Yeah, you can use mono, but that's also available on Mac. XCode is an IDE on Mac which can be argued to be just as good as VS .NET, if not better (I know, again because I USE BOTH OF THEM!!!!!). XCode is a good IDE for Mac, MS VS .NET is a good IDE for Windows. Just stop being ignorant and acting like you know everything. It's annoying me! Take a look at the Apple Store and see all the software that is available for Mac (especially games). You will be surprised. Do some actual research before you start expressing opinions.

See, I gave one exactly appropriate example (out of the many available) and all of you (Mac users) still conveniently avoided accepting my point. I cannot use Mono on a .NET project unless the project is a Mono project; I've never heard of this XCode, but I literally have to use Visual Studio for my development on Windows, especially (and here's the important point-- don't miss it this time, please) because I have to be able to work with specific file formats: Visual Studio .NET files, which are used at my company.

Please don't tell me my business; please don't tell me, like an imbecile, what is or isn't a good IDE for Windows. Mono is a runtime, not a development environment, just as .NET encompasses a runtime and other things, but is not a development environment. Visual Studio .NET is only intended for use with .NET projects, and that's only what I use it for. Again, that was just one example. It's a very bad IDE for most things not related to .NET; for instance, only an idiot would use it for working with XML extensively when there are much better tools available.

I have done some pretty extensive research. Why don't you get a listing for yourself of how many software titles are available on PCs versus Macs before you go spouting untruths? You're essentially claiming, without coming out and saying it, that there is as much software developed for the Mac as for PC. There is not, and it's not even close. No matter how many times you repeat that lie, it will not magically become true. Again, if you want to find the truth, instead of wanting to support the Macintosh religion on this inconsequential board, run a survey! That will give you facts, actual responses from people who haven't switched to Mac (like the vast majority of people out there-- vast).

Now get this right, because I won't say it again: I didn't say you can't support a particular function on a Mac; obviously you can write Mac software to do anything that PC software can currently do. PCs, however, support much more CURRENT software than Macs. (Incidentally, if this ever changes, I'll consider buying a Mac; until that time, it's not the best value.)

Part of my point, which you're conveniently ignoring over and over, is that choice is good for the consumer. Just the fact that there isn't as much choice with Macs as there is with PCs is enough to convince most people to buy PCs. As a new user, all other things aside and just evaluating a new purchase on its merits, not only can you do more things with a PC (things being running specific software titles), but you have many more vendors competing for your attention with new products and competitive pricing. Competition is good for the consumer. This is one of the things that makes capitalism work, and it's the reason that a go-it-alone approach like Apple's is guaranteed to fail eventually (after being much less successful for a long time, sometimes). Apple never reached the flash point that would've let it compete in the end with the PC/Windows juggernaut, despite having significant successes in the early going.

Note that I started by lamenting the fact that there isn't greater choice in the marketplace, but I'm not about to go with Macs when I can choose just as easily a platform with 90% market dominance. I have fewer worries with PCs and Windows, especially because everyone else uses them. Market clout is not negligible.

You have to ask yourself why the supposedly superior value proposition of Macintoshes hasn't won the world over. Like I said before, Apple is not an overly successful computer software and hardware vendor, after trying very visibly to achieve dominance in those businesses for decades. They had branding and marketing clout, they just never took the time to figure out what people really wanted...

 

[jvarszegi]

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy

Thin Lizzy, your arguments are silly. Hardware came into this because I brought it up! It's a huge reason why people prefer PCs, besides the lack of support for software people want and need. PC hardware vendors offer more choice than Apple ever will.

Ummm. We were arguing about software, not hardware. And hardware is not limited. I am still able to fix up my old G4, and others have upgrade options for their G5's, and older Powermacs.

I already gave you one big one: Visual Studio .NET won't run on the Mac. Neither will most games, as I've said and you've implicitly allowed. I don't have time to compose a big list of software titles just to satisfy your inane request.

So since the Mac cant run Visual Studio .NET, that makes the Mac limited in software? If there some other software titles, then tell me some more. And what is this "Most games" you are talking about? Halo 2? Half Life?

Apple is doing very well, eh? Wired magazine has run a big article in the last year analyzing Apple's complete failure to capitalize on their potential. Mac was in danger of sliding into bankruptcy pretty recently, and was bailed out by none other than Microsoft! The iPod and iTunes are the last great hope of Apple, but they are being assailed on all sides in the marketplace. These are facts. Your poorly-presented opinions are about what I expected.

Ummm. Last year? Why are you looking at such an old article? Look at some RECENT articles. And I am not the one using opinions here. You are. Most of your arguments consisted of opinions. I dont understand why you are saying my arguments are silly. Is using your opinions in your arguments not silly? Is saying Mac users wear sandals not silly?

If you really want to settle this, please start a survey and ask PC users why they prefer PCs. They'll tell you over and over again exactly what I've been saying.

And I will tell them my arguements, as they can be proven wrong when they say hardware or software is limited.

EDIT: By the way, Xcode substitutes for Microsoft's Visual Studio .NET. Xcode comes with Mac OS X version 10.3 Panther.

So since the Mac cant run Visual Studio .NET, that makes the Mac limited in software?

Yes, that's just what I'm saying (again). See, if the Mac runs mostly software that most people aren't using or wanting, and the PC (however unfairly in your opinion) runs titles that people want and need, just like I NEED Visual Studio for my current job, then the market will decide against Macs. As it does, again and again. Again, I don't like this situation, but it's inescapable; a product has to achieve a flash point to achieve dominant or dominant-competitive status. Apple computers came close to that, but have since backslid.

Ummm. Last year?

You need to read more carefully. "In the last year" is not the same thing as "last year"; as a matter of fact, something that occurred in the last year most likely did not occur last year, since we're almost done with this one. "In the last year" could accurately describe something that happened last month. I'm too lazy to dig through my stacks of magazines to find the article, and a cursory search didn't turn up anything, but if you really want I can find the article and link to it. Some of the points made in the article are the ones I'm trying to make, but much more clumsily.


And I will tell them my arguements, as they can be proven wrong when they say hardware or software is limited.

Propose any validatable method of checking software title choice between the two platforms, and I will demonstrate that PCs offer more choices. For instance, as a quick check, I just went to CompUSA and found this breakdown for three randomly-selected software categories (games actually wasn't random but the others were):

Games: 662 PC titles, 81 for the Mac
Accounting: 25 PC titles, 6 Mac
Reference: 39 PC titles, 7 Mac

We can dislike each other and/or each others' opinions all we want, but if we want to settle this argument, we should pick some external authority on which we can both depend. And hey, if you don't want to settle the argument, but just want to be defensive because of things I've said, fine by me; we can drop it. Just remember that what I originally said was that I don't like the situation, but this is what I've seen; the numbers support my observations. I didn't say Macs are pieces of junk, aren't useful or beautiful, or any of that.

How would you recommend we check the number of motherboard manufacturers and other specific equipment for PCs and Macs? I don't see a need to continue that discussion. I will even grant that the Mac architecture is probably better in some ways, and the PowerPC chip is supposedly wicked fast. My whole argument is that people don't really choose machines for speed any more, but rather for flexibility and specific function. For around 3% of the population, that choice is Mac hardware and the Mac OS; the rest goes almost entirely to PC hardware, running a majority of Windows and a growing number of Linux and BSD OSes.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

See, I gave one exactly appropriate example (out of the many available) and all of you (Mac users) still conveniently avoided accepting my point. I cannot use Mono on a .NET project unless the project is a Mono project; I've never heard of this XCode, but I literally have to use Visual Studio for my development on Windows, especially (and here's the important point-- don't miss it this time, please) because I have to be able to work with specific file formats: Visual Studio .NET files, which are used at my company.

If you want to use your Visual Studio files, use a PC. Simple as that. But just because you cant use PC files on a Mac doesnt mean the Mac is limited to software. Xcode files dont work on a PC, but does that make the PC limited to software?

I have done some pretty extensive research. Why don't you get a listing for yourself of how many software titles are available on PCs versus Macs before you go spouting untruths? You're essentially claiming, without coming out and saying it, that there is as much software developed for the Mac as for PC. There is not, and it's not even close. No matter how many times you repeat that lie, it will not magically become true. Again, if you want to find the truth, instead of wanting to support the Macintosh religion on this inconsequential board, run a survey! That will give you facts, actual responses from people who haven't switched to Mac (like the vast majority of people out there-- vast).

Then how about you prove this statement. I await your valid arguement for what you said in this paragraph.

Now get this right, because I won't say it again: I didn't say you can't support a particular function on a Mac; obviously you can write Mac software to do anything that PC software can currently do. PCs, however, support much more CURRENT software than Macs. (Incidentally, if this ever changes, I'll consider buying a Mac; until that time, it's not the best value.)

Prove that the PC has more support on current software. If you cant, it is opinionated, which cannot be used in a valid argument.

Part of my point, which you're conveniently ignoring over and over, is that choice is good for the consumer. Just the fact that there isn't as much choice with Macs as there is with PCs is enough to convince most people to buy PCs. As a new user, all other things aside and just evaluating a new purchase on its merits, not only can you do more things with a PC (things being running specific software titles), but you have many more vendors competing for your attention with new products and competitive pricing. Competition is good for the consumer. This is one of the things that makes capitalism work, and it's the reason that a go-it-alone approach like Apple's is guaranteed to fail eventually (after being much less successful for a long time, sometimes). Apple never reached the flash point that would've let it compete in the end with the PC/Windows juggernaut, despite having significant successes in the early going.

Seems to me you are saying if someone chooses a Mac, there is no choice for the consumer. Like I said, there is just as much software for the Mac as there is for the PC. And you know it.

Yes, that's just what I'm saying (again). See, if the Mac runs mostly software that most people aren't using or wanting, and the PC (however unfairly in your opinion) runs titles that people want and need, just like I NEED Visual Studio for my current job, then the market will decide against Macs. As it does, again and again. Again, I don't like this situation, but it's inescapable; a product has to achieve a flash point to achieve dominant or dominant-competitive status. Apple computers came close to that, but have since backslid.

Hmmm, since the Mac doesnt have Visual Studio, it has limited software. Ok, how about this. The PC doesnt have iMovie, iPhoto, iDVD, Garageband, XCode, iChat, Firestarter, iCal. Now, these are some basic programs with Mac OS X, except XCode. Does this make the PC limited in software? XCode isnt on the PC, so does this make it limited in software? I leave this question for you to answer.

You need to read more carefully. "In the last year" is not the same thing as "last year"; as a matter of fact, something that occurred in the last year most likely did not occur last year, since we're almost done with this one. "In the last year" could accurately describe something that happened last month. I'm too lazy to dig through my stacks of magazines to find the article, and a cursory search didn't turn up anything, but if you really want I can find the article and link to it. Some of the points made in the article are the ones I'm trying to make, but much more clumsily.

In the last year, how is it not the same? Explain. Why are you so lazy? Look it up.

Propose any validatable method of checking software title choice between the two platforms, and I will demonstrate that PCs offer more choices. For instance, as a quick check, I just went to CompUSA and found this breakdown for three randomly-selected software categories (games actually wasn't random but the others were):

Oh I see, you decide to go to one store, and since you see that the store carries more PC titles, you assume there are more PC software than the Mac? Name me some of that software please, because the numbers really dont mean anything.

We can dislike each other and/or each others' opinions all we want, but if we want to settle this argument, we should pick some external authority on which we can both depend. And hey, if you don't want to settle the argument, but just want to be defensive because of things I've said, fine by me; we can drop it. Just remember that what I originally said was that I don't like the situation, but this is what I've seen; the numbers support my observations. I didn't say Macs are pieces of junk, aren't useful or beautiful, or any of that.

Numbers dont support anything. How can these numbers support anything without naming any software titles? Numbers dont mean anything. Its about what software you are talking about. And no one didnt accuse you of saying Macs are pieces of junk, arent useful or beautiful. Where did this come from?

How would you recommend we check the number of motherboard manufacturers and other specific equipment for PCs and Macs? I don't see a need to continue that discussion. I will even grant that the Mac architecture is probably better in some ways, and the PowerPC chip is supposedly wicked fast. My whole argument is that people don't really choose machines for speed any more, but rather for flexibility and specific function. For around 3% of the population, that choice is Mac hardware and the Mac OS; the rest goes almost entirely to PC hardware, running a majority of Windows and a growing number of Linux and BSD OSes.

My question is: Why do you compare Apple to the entire PC vendors? How about comparing Apple with Dell. or Apple with HP, etc. And with a Mac you have all the flexibility and function you need. And the Mac is not limited to software just because it lacks one program which is substituted with XCode.
Want to know what XCode is? XCode

 

[imported_Lucifer]

hopejr,
I appreciate you helping me out. Im going to check this out right now, so I can get this filesharing stuff working. Thanks!! 🙂

 

[jvarszegi]

Thin Lizzy, you are getting to be entertaining.

If you want to use your Visual Studio files, use a PC. Simple as that. But just because you cant use PC files on a Mac doesnt mean the Mac is limited to software.

Let's stick to English; you're getting to be barely intelligible. I never said anything was "limited to software", although I guess you could say that both PCs and Macs are limited to software. What I said was that the Mac offers a much more limited choice in the software you can run. Can you prove me wrong? Go to any large online software reseller that caters to both Mac and PC users, and you will see much broader choice in PC software. If you don't agree, prove me wrong, instead of blathering on to the contrary. I invite you to prove me wrong; if you do, I'll consider buying a Mac. Honestly.

My question is: Why do you compare Apple to the entire PC vendors? How about comparing Apple with Dell. or Apple with HP, etc.

Dell and companies like it are significantly different from Apple in a major way: buying a Dell PC does not lock me into running only software written for Dell computers, while buying an Apple computer forces me to run only software written for Apple computers. Also, since 97% of the software market is more important to software vendors than 3%, I expect much more software to be written for the PC than for the Mac in the foreseeable future. This means, among other things, that I will most likely have more high-quality choices on the PC as well, just due to stronger competition and more entries.

Dell, HP, and all the other PC vendors share this strength just by choosing to sell PC hardware instead of Mac hardware; that's why they keep trouncing Apple in the market.

Numbers dont support anything. How can these numbers support anything without naming any software titles? Numbers dont mean anything. Its about what software you are talking about. And no one didnt accuse you of saying Macs are pieces of junk, arent useful or beautiful. Where did this come from?

Numbers don't support anything? That's very interesting. Would you like to tackle the scientific method next? I mean, what will you annihilate next in the ThinLizzyverse? By the way, if no one didn't accuse me of something, someone did. Let's keep this discussion in standard English. ("Where this came from" is your unreasoning, knee-jerk response; I was trying to reassure you that I don't hate Macs. I just hate your stupid, nigh-unintelligible posts.)

Why don't you recommend a method of comparing number of PC software titles to number of Mac titles? Every vendor I go to online has more PC titles. I'm ready for suggestions. There's no way you can win this argument, because you're wrong.

Seems to me you are saying if someone chooses a Mac, there is no choice for the consumer. Like I said, there is just as much software for the Mac as there is for the PC. And you know it.

I don't know it, because as I said I went to a major online vendor which carries both, and saw many times the number of PC titles compared to Mac titles. How would I "know" it, when my senses tell me repeatedly otherwise? I'd have to be insane. Please answer this question clearly, in standard English.

Also, please answer how you got the mistaken notion that I said there is no choice for the Mac user. Did you read my posts? Go back and (re)read them now, and you will see that I say over and over again that there is less choice. There is, significantly less; that's why most people (unless they just go with the mainstream without thinking) prefer PCs.

Hmmm, since the Mac doesnt have Visual Studio, it has limited software.

Hmmm, not exactly. I used that as one example of a software title that many people use, that has no Mac equivalent, but of course I never said that a single title decided the question either way. You keep claiming that I say that, but instead what I've said is this:

1. The Mac has many fewer software titles, so compared with the PC, it is more limited in software-title choices. This is a tautology.
2. Some popular software titles, which people want and need, aren't released for the Mac. (Visual Studio falls into this category.)
3. The Mac titles which replicate PC-title functionality sometimes don't cooperate well with the PC titles, which almost the entire population uses.

I'm sure that there are more than a few Mac-only titles, but the Mac audience is only 3% of the population that uses computers, so the relative importance of these titles is negligible. I'm sure that they're important to you, but you have to expect roughly 97% of the population to disagree. Also, the number of PC-only titles is bound to be greater than the number of Mac-only titles, seeing that there seem to be at least four to five times as many PC titles as Mac titles.

I can't believe you're continuing this, but it is interesting. I guess the Mac really is more about religion than technology.

In the last year, how is it not the same? Explain.

I'm nonplussed on how to tackle your perception problem here. If you're still in high school or grade school, please ask your English teacher to help you with this question.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Let's stick to English; you're getting to be barely intelligible. I never said anything was "limited to software", although I guess you could say that both PCs and Macs are limited to software. What I said was that the Mac offers a much more limited choice in the software you can run. Can you prove me wrong? Go to any large online software reseller that caters to both Mac and PC users, and you will see much broader choice in PC software. If you don't agree, prove me wrong, instead of blathering on to the contrary. I invite you to prove me wrong; if you do, I'll consider buying a Mac. Honestly.

Ummm. You didnt say anything was limited to software? You dont recall saying the Mac is limited to software? And what limited choice are you talking about? You constantly refuse to answer this question. I have proved you wrong. You say a Mac doesnt have Visual Studio, but the Mac has XCode, which does the same thing. FileMaker Pro does what Access does, but has more features.

I also noticed some nonsense you were posting too. When you say that if you need to run an Access file on a Mac using FileMaker pro, it wouldnt work. Well, what if your PC was using Access and the Mac is using FileMaker Pro, and you need to use a FileMaker file on the PC running Access, will it not work? And you say a Visual Studio file wont work with a Mac running XCode. Well, a PC running Visual Studio wont be able to use an XCode file, am I right?

Numbers don't support anything? That's very interesting. Would you like to tackle the scientific method next? I mean, what will you annihilate next in the ThinLizzyverse? By the way, if no one didn't accuse me of something, someone did. Let's keep this discussion in standard English. ("Where this came from" is your unreasoning, knee-jerk response; I was trying to reassure you that I don't hate Macs. I just hate your stupid, nigh-unintelligible posts.)

Explain to me how your numbers support what you said. And who accused you of hating Macs? And how are my responses unreasoning? And when you say you hate my stupid "nigh-unintelligible posts", dont you think you should grow up a little? Its quite childish.

Why don't you recommend a method of comparing number of PC software titles to number of Mac titles? Every vendor I go to online has more PC titles. I'm ready for suggestions. There's no way you can win this argument, because you're wrong.

And in what way am I wrong? You have yet to prove me wrong when it comes to software titles. You still wont list software from those "numbers" you were talking about. So, how will I lose this argument if you wont back anything of what you say up?

I don't know it, because as I said I went to a major online vendor which carries both, and saw many times the number of PC titles compared to Mac titles. How would I "know" it, when my senses tell me repeatedly otherwise? I'd have to be insane. Please answer this question clearly, in standard English.

The reason why you dont know it is because you dont use a Mac period. You hardly know anything about the Mac to make assumptions like "The mac is limited to software."

Also, please answer how you got the mistaken notion that I said there is no choice for the Mac user. Did you read my posts? Go back and (re)read them now, and you will see that I say over and over again that there is less choice. There is, significantly less; that's why most people (unless they just go with the mainstream without thinking) prefer PCs.

I will quote you on this:

Part of my point, which you're conveniently ignoring over and over, is that choice is good for the consumer. Just the fact that there isn't as much choice with Macs as there is with PCs is enough to convince most people to buy PCs. As a new user, all other things aside and just evaluating a new purchase on its merits, not only can you do more things with a PC (things being running specific software titles), but you have many more vendors competing for your attention with new products and competitive pricing. Competition is good for the consumer. This is one of the things that makes capitalism work, and it's the reason that a go-it-alone approach like Apple's is guaranteed to fail eventually (after being much less successful for a long time, sometimes). Apple never reached the flash point that would've let it compete in the end with the PC/Windows juggernaut, despite having significant successes in the early going.

After reading this, am I not able to make the assumption that you think that if a consumer chooses a Mac, there is no choice?

Hmmm, nope. The Mac has many fewer software titles, so compared with the PC, it is more limited. Also, many popular software titles, which people want and need, aren't released for the Mac. Also, the Mac-only titles which replicate PC-title functionality sometimes don't cooperate well with the PC-only titles, which almost the entire population uses.

You dont recall saying that since the Mac doesnt have Visual Studio, it is limited to software? I will quote you on this.

This is what I said:

So since the Mac cant run Visual Studio .NET, that makes the Mac limited in software?

Your response:

Yes, that's just what I'm saying (again). See, if the Mac runs mostly software that most people aren't using or wanting, and the PC (however unfairly in your opinion) runs titles that people want and need, just like I NEED Visual Studio for my current job, then the market will decide against Macs. As it does, again and again. Again, I don't like this situation, but it's inescapable; a product has to achieve a flash point to achieve dominant or dominant-competitive status. Apple computers came close to that, but have since backslid.

I'm nonplussed on how to tackle your perception problem here. If you're still in high school or grade school, please ask your English teacher to help you with this question.

So I am guessing you dont know how to explain it.

I can't believe you're continuing this, but it is interesting. I guess the Mac really is more about religion than technology.

I cant believe you are continuing this too. I guess the PC is more about religion than technology too. 😉

 

[vfouquereau]

And this topic was to help me find a thin and light notebook... It kind of went straight downhill in term of "helpfulness" as soon as the word "Mac" came up... *sigh*

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Well, we tried to help, but when someone tries to spread nonsense saying the Mac is limited to software, these things can happen.

On Topic: Have you made a decision? I, and many many others, are still willing to help you out. Was there a laptop you had in mind? Please let us know. 🙂