Looking for a Butter alternative - Dairy & Oil-free

[Kaido]

I'm trying to find something I can use to substitute for butter in recipes, but one that doesn't contain either dairy or oil. Haven't found anything yet, maybe never will, but figured I'd ask for suggestions. I'm allergic to dairy, and I've discovered that I'm also allergic to "cheap" oils - for example, olive oil doesn't bother me one bit, and Canola oil (from rapeseed) seems okay so far, but anything else seems to kill my stomach - cottonseed oil, palm oil, vegetable oil, etc.

I've tried various butter alternatives such as Willow Run and Earth Balance. Crisco is the same deal. So I'm trying to find something that can substitute for butter - doesn't have to taste like butter - that doesn't have dairy or oil. For example, if I want to make chocolate-chip cookies (hey, cheat days! ), I have soy-based chocolate chips (which taste exactly like semi-sweet chocolate chips, for the record) and currently use a non-dairy butter alternative. But it rips up my stomach...even if I spread it on toast, the butter alternatives do a number on my gut. I've tried replacing butter with applesauce, but that only works in some recipes, and not very well.

So, any suggestions for a dairy-free and cheap-oil-free butter alternative?

 

[BigPoppa]

Gonna put this in the impossible category.

Why, if olive/rapeseed oil don't bug you, don't you use them? Could also try coconut oil.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: BigPoppa
Gonna put this in the impossible category.

Why, if olive/rapeseed oil don't bug you, don't you use them? Could also try coconut oil.

I *DO* use them, I guess I just worded that funny - olive oil, rapeseed oil, and a couple others are okay, but stuff like veggie oil, palm oil, and cottonseed oil do a number on my stomach. I'd be happy using them in, say, cookies, but you don't exactly substitute a stick of butter for a cup of olive oil, eh?

Yah I haven't found anything either. Probably impossible, oh well!

 

[Megatomic]

I know this doesn't help, but it must suck to have those food sensitivities. Have you seen an allergist or dietician for this issue yet? In our society it would be extremely difficult to eat unless you cooked all your own food from scratch. That in itself would be a full time job...

 

[NGC_604]

I have some milled flax seed that I occasionally eat. I think it mentions on the box about using it in place of butter. Of course I've never actually tried that so I'm not sure of the results.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: Megatomic
I know this doesn't help, but it must suck to have those food sensitivities. Have you seen an allergist or dietician for this issue yet? In our society it would be extremely difficult to eat unless you cooked all your own food from scratch. That in itself would be a full time job...

It's not as hard as you think. I mostly just avoid processed foods. I do all my cooking for the day in the morning in about 20 minutes, thanks to appliances like my George Foreman grill. Since I'm on what would be considered a 'bodybuilding diet', I'm careful about what I eat anyway.

Reading labels on food was really hard at first, but you pick it up within a few weeks and then it's really easy. I have half a dozen other allergies or intolerances I've discovered so far, so I'm just taking it one step at a time. The good news is, I'm starting to feel "normal" more than 90% of the time, which for me is a HUGE thing.

The allergists don't know jack - they follow established procedures and that's it. I went in more than once for allergy testing (the full on 40-needle bit) and it showed absolutely nada. But for my dairy allergy, for example, it doesn't have a skin reaction, it has a stomach reaction and gives me migraines. It was around November 2007 that I learned I had a dairy allergy, then in April 2008 I got serious about my eating habits, and I've pretty much stuck with that ever since. I've had a hard time sticking with the exercise plan, but I've kept the diet more or less the same and that keeps me feeling good and at a stable weight. It's amazing how much food can affect my day!

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: energydan
I have some milled flax seed that I occasionally eat. I think it mentions on the box about using it in place of butter. Of course I've never actually tried that so I'm not sure of the results.

Interesting....flax seed oil is "safe" for me, so I'll have to try that - thanks! Where do you get it?

 

[NGC_604]

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: energydan
I have some milled flax seed that I occasionally eat. I think it mentions on the box about using it in place of butter. Of course I've never actually tried that so I'm not sure of the results.

Interesting....flax seed oil is "safe" for me, so I'll have to try that - thanks! Where do you get it?

I get mine at the local grocery store (Giant Eagle) where all the Kashi crap and other related products are at. This is the one I get, http://www.hodgsonmill.com/roi...ed-Flax-Seed-01016.htm

I like it. It's ground up well so I usually mix it with some milk in the morning with breakfast or with some cottage cheese. I can't see the box well enough to read the smaller print, but I'm pretty sure it says somewhere on the front/back about using it as a substitute for butter when baking. I'll check when I get home from work and let you know for sure.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: energydan

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: energydan
I have some milled flax seed that I occasionally eat. I think it mentions on the box about using it in place of butter. Of course I've never actually tried that so I'm not sure of the results.

Interesting....flax seed oil is "safe" for me, so I'll have to try that - thanks! Where do you get it?

I get mine at the local grocery store (Giant Eagle) where all the Kashi crap and other related products are at. This is the one I get, http://www.hodgsonmill.com/roi...ed-Flax-Seed-01016.htm

I like it. It's ground up well so I usually mix it with some milk in the morning with breakfast or with some cottage cheese. I can't see the box well enough to read the smaller print, but I'm pretty sure it says somewhere on the front/back about using it as a substitute for butter when baking. I'll check when I get home from work and let you know for sure.

I've seen Hodgon's Mill products before, so I'll have to check them out. Would be nice to have a safe substitute!

 

[Titan]

hemp seed oil tastes great and will not kill your stomach.

 

[Yukmouth]

You shouldn't be eating fats that are solid at room temperature* in the first place.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: Yukmouth
You shouldn't be eating fats that are solid at room temperature* in the first place.

Cheat day!

 

[Kipper]

Have you considered the context that you eat the foods which you claim to have "allergies" to (they're probably more intolerances, an allergy is an immune reaction)? For example, the oils you mentioned aren't particularly common to cooking (except perhaps palm), and "vegetable oil" is a common name for what is typically a blend of cottonseed, peanut, or soy oils (and sometimes is even canola or very cheap olive). This suggests that the "reaction" you're claiming to have might be produced by something other than what you believe it is. If you eat out, you are more than likely consuming these oils in foods which you may not be familiar with, and in those cases, the reactions don't generally appear.

What I'm trying to get at is that more than often, without objective evidence from testing, these "reactions" are pretty much conditioned responses, like people claiming to have heart palpitations after consuming MSG. I've met people who claim to be "allergic" to raisins alone, but have no trouble when they consume products where the raisins are "invisible." You get the idea.

Incidentally, there are some plant sterol "butters" out there that you may find help. I don't know how particularly good they are in baking, though.

 

[Yukmouth]

You're only cheating yourself ...

... I guess a true friend would say a little butter here and there beats dying brain dead and sh*tting yourself at 100+ years old .

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: Yukmouth
You're only cheating yourself ...

... I guess a true friend would say a little butter here and there beats dying brain dead and sh*tting yourself at 100+ years old .

Curious, do you eat 100% perfect every day?

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: Kipper
Have you considered the context that you eat the foods which you claim to have "allergies" to (they're probably more intolerances, an allergy is an immune reaction)? For example, the oils you mentioned aren't particularly common to cooking (except perhaps palm), and "vegetable oil" is a common name for what is typically a blend of cottonseed, peanut, or soy oils (and sometimes is even canola or very cheap olive). This suggests that the "reaction" you're claiming to have might be produced by something other than what you believe it is. If you eat out, you are more than likely consuming these oils in foods which you may not be familiar with, and in those cases, the reactions don't generally appear.

What I'm trying to get at is that more than often, without objective evidence from testing, these "reactions" are pretty much conditioned responses, like people claiming to have heart palpitations after consuming MSG. I've met people who claim to be "allergic" to raisins alone, but have no trouble when they consume products where the raisins are "invisible." You get the idea.

Incidentally, there are some plant sterol "butters" out there that you may find help. I don't know how particularly good they are in baking, though.

Yeah, I've kept notes for nearly 2 years now. The only "allergies" I have are dairy & HFCS, the rest are just baaaaaad intolerances. I rarely eat out because I don't know what they put in the food. I've done a lot of experimenting with alternative foods; they built a Whole Foods 10 minutes from me a year or so ago, so I've been able to more accurately test results of different combinations of ingredients. Good oils for me are flax, canola, soy, and olive. Bad or suspected bad ones include palm, vegetable, cottonseed, safflower, sunflower, coconut, and a couple other ones I forget.

For me, it's pretty easy to tell what's good or what's bad - the intolerances jack my stomach up within minutes, feels like Arnold is twisting my gut haha. I cook 99% of my own food, most of it from scratch, so I'm very careful about what gets into my stomach. Feeling "normal" for me is like walking on a tightrope - one slip and I pay for it nearly immediately!

Sometimes I feel like I can never move from this town, I don't know what I would do without Whole Foods nearby

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: Kaido

Yeah, I've kept notes for nearly 2 years now. The only "allergies" I have are dairy & HFCS, the rest are just baaaaaad intolerances. I rarely eat out because I don't know what they put in the food. I've done a lot of experimenting with alternative foods; they built a Whole Foods 10 minutes from me a year or so ago, so I've been able to more accurately test results of different combinations of ingredients. Good oils for me are flax, canola, soy, and olive. Bad or suspected bad ones include palm, vegetable, cottonseed, safflower, sunflower, coconut, and a couple other ones I forget.

For me, it's pretty easy to tell what's good or what's bad - the intolerances jack my stomach up within minutes, feels like Arnold is twisting my gut haha. I cook 99% of my own food, most of it from scratch, so I'm very careful about what gets into my stomach. Feeling "normal" for me is like walking on a tightrope - one slip and I pay for it nearly immediately!

Sometimes I feel like I can never move from this town, I don't know what I would do without Whole Foods nearby

Call me jaded, but you'll have to forgive my skepticism when speaking of "intolerances" or "allergies." I'm not trying to trivialize your symptoms, but there is a fairly large psychological component involved much of these intolerances, and it is human nature to chalk up "feeling abnormal" to what they've eaten, when in fact the etiology has no physiological basis.

For example, your intolerance to high-fructose corn syrup. Biochemically, HFCS isn't that much different from normal sucrose. Granted, the biochemistry is of some contention but I have to seriously question that some people have "allergies" to it. I've run across more than one person who claims they have the "allergy" but at the same time, they eat corn products with no problems and consume products which they are unaware contain HFCS with no problems. The variations are really infinite.

Granted, human beings have more complex relationships with food than we can ever hope to understand and it is probably a mixture of psychology with physiology. What I'm trying to say is while true allergies are difficult to overcome, the physiology underlying intolerances is far more complex and you may find that that they are not as "bad" as they seem.

My two cents.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: KipperCall me jaded, but you'll have to forgive my skepticism when speaking of "intolerances" or "allergies." I'm not trying to trivialize your symptoms, but there is a fairly large psychological component involved much of these intolerances, and it is human nature to chalk up "feeling abnormal" to what they've eaten, when in fact the etiology has no physiological basis.

For example, your intolerance to high-fructose corn syrup. Biochemically, HFCS isn't that much different from normal sucrose. Granted, the biochemistry is of some contention but I have to seriously question that some people have "allergies" to it. I've run across more than one person who claims they have the "allergy" but at the same time, they eat corn products with no problems and consume products which they are unaware contain HFCS with no problems. The variations are really infinite.

Granted, human beings have more complex relationships with food than we can ever hope to understand and it is probably a mixture of psychology with physiology. What I'm trying to say is while true allergies are difficult to overcome, the physiology underlying intolerances is far more complex and you may find that that they are not as "bad" as they seem.

My two cents.

Yeah, I think a lot of people blame the wrong thing for their health problems. I know a lady who is super hyperactive and gets massive headaches and can't figure out why or blames it on random food items, but she chugs caffeinated soda in place of water all day. There's definitely a lot psychology involved in some people's food sensitivities!

 

[Kaido]

I was reading about Unsaturated vs. Saturated Fats and one site happened to list some oils: (scroll down - "In the Diet" section)

http://www.diffen.com/differen...ts_vs_Unsaturated_Fats

It said oils high in saturated fat include: coconut oil, cottoneed oil, and palm kernel oil.

Oils high in unsatured fats: soybean oil, canola oil, olive oil.

Intereeeeeeeeeeeeesting! Unsaturated oils = no effect on me. Saturated oils = makes me feel like crap. Time to do some more research!

 

[spamsk8r]

Originally posted by: Yukmouth
You shouldn't be eating fats that are solid at room temperature* in the first place.

This statement is utterly incorrect. The body needs saturated fat to live (and also to create Testosterone). Saturated fats are the building blocks for cell walls and other processes in the body (see here for more).

The only fats you should steer clear of are trans-fats (which are abundant in things like crisco, margarine, and, unfortunately, most commercial lards).

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: spamsk8r

Originally posted by: Yukmouth
You shouldn't be eating fats that are solid at room temperature* in the first place.

This statement is utterly incorrect. The body needs saturated fat to live (and also to create Testosterone). Saturated fats are the building blocks for cell walls and other processes in the body (see here for more).

The only fats you should steer clear of are trans-fats (which are abundant in things like crisco, margarine, and, unfortunately, most commercial lards).

You're a bit mistaken. FAT consumption is certainly necessary for health. However, it's pretty much impossible to consume a saturated-fat free diet because they are present to some degree in all oils - regardless of whether you're eating olive or coconut. Just the proportions vary.

So the rule to minimize consumption of fats solid at room temperature is actually a fairly decent one, since these are the fats which are higher in SFAs (or alternatively, contain transfats, which are more insidious). It helps remind people to minimize consumption of butter, palm/coconut oils, and animal fats.

I should also point out that saturated fats are also not the exclusive building blocks to cell walls, as cell walls are composed of a mix (and generally reflect fat intake). A primarily saturated-fat cell wall would in fact be undesirable because it would not be as fluid (as one composed of MUFA/PUFA in addition). Fluidity affects cell function, notably the function of LDL receptors on the cell's surface (poorer LDL receptor function -> less removal of LDL from the bloodstream -> high LDL). Moreover, I should also point out that although saturated fat can be used to produce testosterone, consuming it does not necessarily mean that you will boost testosterone.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: Kipper

Originally posted by: spamsk8r

Originally posted by: Yukmouth
You shouldn't be eating fats that are solid at room temperature* in the first place.

This statement is utterly incorrect. The body needs saturated fat to live (and also to create Testosterone). Saturated fats are the building blocks for cell walls and other processes in the body (see here for more).

The only fats you should steer clear of are trans-fats (which are abundant in things like crisco, margarine, and, unfortunately, most commercial lards).

You're a bit mistaken. FAT consumption is certainly necessary for health. However, it's pretty much impossible to consume a saturated-fat free diet because they are present to some degree in all oils - regardless of whether you're eating olive or coconut. Just the proportions vary.

So the rule to minimize consumption of fats solid at room temperature is actually a fairly decent one, since these are the fats which are higher in SFAs (or alternatively, contain transfats, which are more insidious). It helps remind people to minimize consumption of butter, palm/coconut oils, and animal fats.

I should also point out that saturated fats are also not the exclusive building blocks to cell walls, as cell walls are composed of a mix (and generally reflect fat intake). A primarily saturated-fat cell wall would in fact be undesirable because it would not be as fluid (as one composed of MUFA/PUFA in addition). Fluidity affects cell function, notably the function of LDL receptors on the cell's surface (poorer LDL receptor function -> less removal of LDL from the bloodstream -> high LDL). Moreover, I should also point out that although saturated fat can be used to produce testosterone, consuming it does not necessarily mean that you will boost testosterone.

What I'm curious about is why oils high in saturated fats bother me, while oils high in unsaturated fats are just fine. High cholesterol or something? What would cause this? I mean...the oils high in unsaturated fats still have saturated fat in them, just not as much as the other oils.

What gives?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Kipper

Originally posted by: spamsk8r

Originally posted by: Yukmouth
You shouldn't be eating fats that are solid at room temperature* in the first place.

This statement is utterly incorrect. The body needs saturated fat to live (and also to create Testosterone). Saturated fats are the building blocks for cell walls and other processes in the body (see here for more).

The only fats you should steer clear of are trans-fats (which are abundant in things like crisco, margarine, and, unfortunately, most commercial lards).

You're a bit mistaken. FAT consumption is certainly necessary for health. However, it's pretty much impossible to consume a saturated-fat free diet because they are present to some degree in all oils - regardless of whether you're eating olive or coconut. Just the proportions vary.

So the rule to minimize consumption of fats solid at room temperature is actually a fairly decent one, since these are the fats which are higher in SFAs (or alternatively, contain transfats, which are more insidious). It helps remind people to minimize consumption of butter, palm/coconut oils, and animal fats.

I should also point out that saturated fats are also not the exclusive building blocks to cell walls, as cell walls are composed of a mix (and generally reflect fat intake). A primarily saturated-fat cell wall would in fact be undesirable because it would not be as fluid (as one composed of MUFA/PUFA in addition). Fluidity affects cell function, notably the function of LDL receptors on the cell's surface (poorer LDL receptor function -> less removal of LDL from the bloodstream -> high LDL). Moreover, I should also point out that although saturated fat can be used to produce testosterone, consuming it does not necessarily mean that you will boost testosterone.

This is what conventional nutrition likes to say. However, there are many exceptions to the supposed rule. Most research that I see that condemns saturated fat includes increased overall fat rather than increased proportion of types of fat.

Hydrogenated oils have a significantly increased amount of trans fats while unprocessed saturated fats maintain fairly low amounts. Trans fats are the result of processing of unsaturated and polyunsaturated oils. How do people justify using oils like soybean oil, canola oil, etc? These are the most processed of all and therefore maintain the highest proportion of trans fats.

Also, cell walls with differing fluidity can all be made from saturated fat. The body has many mechanisms to convert the simplest component into many necessary products. As you know, the body can produce double bonds on specific carbons in saturated fats. Clearly, we have necessary unsaturated fats, but don't play down the role of saturated fats. Fats are burned a great deal by resting muscle tissue, they are good indicators of satiation, they are the building blocks of many hormones. That's irrefutable - saturated or not.

I don't believe we have enough solid evidence to condemn saturated fats in healthy individuals. Those who exercise, have a moderately high intake of saturated fat, and have a great diet do not suffer from the consequences that are held as the fault of saturated fat. It is those individuals who do not abide by the rules of moderation that have the health problems, but then again this is true in every case. Too many of the "bad" carbs results in diabetes and insulin release problems. Too much protein and you bust up your kidneys. Moderation is key here. I've had this discussion with research nutritionists and professors and they all seem to agree that saturated fats maintain negative effects only in excess (and not excess as defined by the textbooks - reasonable, applicable excess) and in pathology.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Kaido
What I'm curious about is why oils high in saturated fats bother me, while oils high in unsaturated fats are just fine. High cholesterol or something? What would cause this? I mean...the oils high in unsaturated fats still have saturated fat in them, just not as much as the other oils.

What gives?

Perhaps that's a better question for your doctor. That doesn't make much sense to me and I've studied all types of fats.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

This is what conventional nutrition likes to say. However, there are many exceptions to the supposed rule. Most research that I see that condemns saturated fat includes increased overall fat rather than increased proportion of types of fat.

Hydrogenated oils have a significantly increased amount of trans fats while unprocessed saturated fats maintain fairly low amounts. Trans fats are the result of processing of unsaturated and polyunsaturated oils. How do people justify using oils like soybean oil, canola oil, etc? These are the most processed of all and therefore maintain the highest proportion of trans fats.

Also, cell walls with differing fluidity can all be made from saturated fat. The body has many mechanisms to convert the simplest component into many necessary products. As you know, the body can produce double bonds on specific carbons in saturated fats. Clearly, we have necessary unsaturated fats, but don't play down the role of saturated fats. Fats are burned a great deal by resting muscle tissue, they are good indicators of satiation, they are the building blocks of many hormones. That's irrefutable - saturated or not.

I don't believe we have enough solid evidence to condemn saturated fats in healthy individuals. Those who exercise, have a moderately high intake of saturated fat, and have a great diet do not suffer from the consequences that are held as the fault of saturated fat. It is those individuals who do not abide by the rules of moderation that have the health problems, but then again this is true in every case. Too many of the "bad" carbs results in diabetes and insulin release problems. Too much protein and you bust up your kidneys. Moderation is key here. I've had this discussion with research nutritionists and professors and they all seem to agree that saturated fats maintain negative effects only in excess (and not excess as defined by the textbooks - reasonable, applicable excess) and in pathology.

Okay, stop right there. You had me until you started talking about soybean oil/canola having a large proportion of transfats (TF). Partially hydrogenated, yes, they will have TF. On their own as plain old "vegetable oil" or equivalent? Hardly. In fact, since the NYC trans-fat ban put them on the map, a number of major chain restaurants have switched to using canola/soy blends for their deep-frying. Hydrogenated oil tends to be whatever is cheapest at the time anyway - and since the stuff is so cheap it usually ends up being a blend of third-rate, flavorless/odorless oils (the kind you find in huge commercial-size jugs).

Obviously, elevated saturated fat consumption is going to entail higher fat consumption, by definition. As I previously posted no naturally occurring oils are going to be PURE one thing or another. Ergo, the "minimize/reduce consumption of fats solid at room temperature" is a decent one because if people want fat/oil in their diet they are going to have to seek out alternatives - which will (hopefully) generally be less saturated.

You are also correct in saying that the body can somewhat compensate for loss of cell wall fluidity with a saturated-fat rich diet, but only so much. The system is hardly perfect. The enzymes don't discriminate, but to use an analogy, if you start with low-quality raw material, it doesn't matter how good your machines/workers are, the final product will inevitably be low quality. Start with a higher-quality material, your end product is going to be better. This could be applied to fat consumption.

Regardless of what you believe regarding saturated fat and its consumption in "healthy" individuals (a bit of a problematic usage, because the entire idea behind the recommendations is to keep people healthy), it seems more prudent to err on the side of caution. There is no particularly good reason to go out and start consuming porterhouse steaks with abandon, nor does the "lack of evidence" (in your opinion) grant carte blanche to begin doing so. Now here's the $100,000 question: is the lack of adverse consequences (cardiac events) in individuals who exercise AND have diverse, varied diets because of the exercise, or because of the food? Or is it something else? I don't think we will ever be able to tease out the specifics of those relationships.

Finally, I have never been a fan of the words "excess" and "moderation" because they are so subject to interpretation. What is "excessive" for a normal person is "normal" for a 400-lb sumo wrestler. For this purpose, following simple rules like the aforementioned make it easy for people to determine what and how to eat. Ultimately, most people don't want to obsess over their food. They want to just enjoy it. Unfortunately, with the dysfunctional relationship that many of us have with our food, that