London Burning

[MomentsofSanity]

How old is that building? And it must've been such a mess and unsafe state for a fire to spread so quickly and so devastating. It's almost unbelieving for a building to get to that state before emergency responders to arrive and contain.

They put a cladding on the outside of the building (which is rumored to have been outside of fire code) to give it a more modern look. Once that started to burn it was inevitable. Defeated all other fire prevention features built into the building, whatever they were.

 

[K1052]

They put a cladding on the outside of the building (which is rumored to have been outside of fire code) to give it a more modern look. Once that started to burn it was inevitable. Defeated all other fire prevention features built into the building, whatever they were.

This has happened in the middle east from time to time as well but I don't think the fires have infiltrated much of the structures themselves...probably thanks to modern sprinkler systems. Polyethylene cored aluminum cladding was the culprit.

 

[woolfe9998]

Relevant:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38278596
Apparently cuts have also harmed fire services. First not enough police to handle a terrorist attack, now this.

If so, it might hasten May's demise. She's already taken blame relative to the terrorist attacks for cuts to police.

 

[Paratus]

On vacation this week. Turns out we were fairly close to this fire. Our neighbors saw the smoke from the fire last night.

Most of the radio stations were covering it.

 

[woolfe9998]

Death toll has risen to 12:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/13/europe/west-london-fire/index.html

 

[Mark R]

Reports are suggesting that the wrong top cladding was installed (polyethylene core, rather than fire resistant core). The fire code is super complicated (it usually requires that the exact combination of materials and construction method be subjected to a large scale laboratory fire test, or a detailed engineering report from a specialist fire safety construction engineer), but as I understand it, there is no way that PE core aluminium should have been used, and a fire-resistant type of cladding should have been used.

PE core aluminium has been implicated in a ton of high-rise fires in Dubai, Australia, China and elsewhere.

The purpose of the cladding is partly aesthetic, but mainly to cover modern external wall thermal insulation, which was needed to control heating bills (this is mainly social housing, so the occupants are mostly on low incomes) and also to meet energy efficiency code which require energy efficiency to be upgraded to modern standards any time significant upgrades are performed.

how does a building like this not have a sprinkler system?

UK codes do not require sprinklers or fire alarms in this type of building. This is based on years of experience which shows that they are unreliable (they tend to be vandalised or poorly maintained) and cause a considerable nuisance (e.g. if 400 people have to evacuate because someone burned their toast, or drunk people sound the alarm as a prank).

As a result, the focus of UK building regulations changed from "active" safety (fire alarms, sprinklers) to "passive" safety (non-flammable materials, fire seals, fire doors, sealed concrete compartments, etc.) Due to this construction design, it is extremely rare of for an apartment block fire to spread beyond a single apartment.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

By the way, awesome reference in the thread title. Albeit a little more literal than these lads intended it, I think..

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

I wish that the authorities, councils, fire departments, government, law-makers, building owners and other parties running the building. Had got their act together, and kept that building very safe from fires and related casualties.

Early indications seem to be that preventable fire safety mistake(s), have been made, with this building. What a tragedy.

It is so, so crazy allowing it (maybe through negligence), to be able to catch fire so quickly, and for it to spread all over the building, so quickly. The story, is more like something I would expect to read about happening in North Korea, or some third world country, or similar.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008

11:02
Police have confirmed that 17 people have been killed in the Grenfell Tower blaze.

The number is still expected to rise.

 

[werepossum]

how does a building like this not have a sprinkler system?

This. I'm all for restraint in regulations, especially retroactively, but a building this tall without a fire sprinkler system is simply a death trap.

 

[werepossum]

Reports are suggesting that the wrong top cladding was installed (polyethylene core, rather than fire resistant core). The fire code is super complicated (it usually requires that the exact combination of materials and construction method be subjected to a large scale laboratory fire test, or a detailed engineering report from a specialist fire safety construction engineer), but as I understand it, there is no way that PE core aluminium should have been used, and a fire-resistant type of cladding should have been used.

PE core aluminium has been implicated in a ton of high-rise fires in Dubai, Australia, China and elsewhere.

The purpose of the cladding is partly aesthetic, but mainly to cover modern external wall thermal insulation, which was needed to control heating bills (this is mainly social housing, so the occupants are mostly on low incomes) and also to meet energy efficiency code which require energy efficiency to be upgraded to modern standards any time significant upgrades are performed.

UK codes do not require sprinklers or fire alarms in this type of building. This is based on years of experience which shows that they are unreliable (they tend to be vandalised or poorly maintained) and cause a considerable nuisance (e.g. if 400 people have to evacuate because someone burned their toast, or drunk people sound the alarm as a prank).

As a result, the focus of UK building regulations changed from "active" safety (fire alarms, sprinklers) to "passive" safety (non-flammable materials, fire seals, fire doors, sealed concrete compartments, etc.) Due to this construction design, it is extremely rare of for an apartment block fire to spread beyond a single apartment.

That is simply insane on both accounts. It's insane that such an error in cladding could happen given the myriad entities responsible for ensuring that it does not happen. And it's insane that a building like this isn't required to have a fire alarm system AND a fire sprinkler system. False alarms are easily handled by having an alarm evacuate only that apartment, whereas alarms in adjacent enclosures (apartments or halls) trigger an evacuation, and both notify an outside monitoring agency. As far as vandalism and pranks, we provide fire alarm systems in prisons, where both vandalism and evacuations are much more highly motivated.

 

[Thebobo]

That is simply insane on both accounts. It's insane that such an error in cladding could happen given the myriad entities responsible for ensuring that it does not happen. And it's insane that a building like this isn't required to have a fire alarm system AND a fire sprinkler system. False alarms are easily handled by having an alarm evacuate only that apartment, whereas alarms in adjacent enclosures (apartments or halls) trigger an evacuation, and both notify an outside monitoring agency. As far as vandalism and pranks, we provide fire alarm systems in prisons, where both vandalism and evacuations are much more highly motivated.

Sprinklers at a minimum. Yep depending on the Code fire alarms can be configured in many ways. Ever since the Las Vegas hotel fire in the 70s the States have pretty stringent code for Hi-rise buildings. Pressurized stairways, floor above, on, and below alarm signals, etc.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

The death toll may now exceed 60. Apparently at least one source (TheSun newspaper), thinks it is more like 100.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473

There are fears the death toll could exceed 60 and police may not identify all the victims, as a political row continues over the response.

 

[PingviN]

Wrapping a building in plastic is a terrible idea, as shown. There are probably a lot of buildings with similar construction flaws all over.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Wrapping a building in plastic is a terrible idea, as shown. There are probably a lot of buildings with similar construction flaws all over.

From the report(s) that are coming out, from a person who was on a highish floor (possibly 15), and only just managed to escape.
The CRAZY external building material (or whatever the issues were), had filled the building with a terrible, toxic, unbreathable and almost impossible to see through, SMOKE.

So no wonder, it was such a nightmare to escape from. Try climbing down, up to twenty flights of stairs, in unbreathable/thick smoke, when you can't see much/anything.

Latest seems to be up to 76 missing, with 17 already reported dead.

I'm VERY annoyed with the various authorities, which should have protected the population, from disasters like this.

 

[DaQuteness]

From what I understand it was a defend-in-place fire strategy due to the height but don't quote me on that, which pretty much means trusting all fire protections to do their job... Kind of hard when you set a water box above and in the same riser as the electric panels from what I hear was the cause. Although this is a refurbishment and was already built with one core, developers greed tends to lead to stretching of fire escape distances to the max and keep one core to gain more lettable area.

Human safety is perceived by others more a matter of covering your arse in case shit happens, or at least that's how I see it being perceived by others since I work in an architecture practice myself: have we drawn everything correctly? have we kept to all regulations? have the correct specifications been signed off? do you have a paper trail for this and that? Not often do I actually hear "Is this safe?" especially from clients - more often than not "safe" has more of a legal aspect and it really is down to us who are doing all the work to afford due diligence and prioritise safety - you think it's wrong, you point it out, you solve the issue or ignorance leads to human lives being lost.

I agree with other contributors here, this cladding is not the correct one to install on high-rise, building regs require up to 2h fire resistance on heights >18m, depending on top serviced floor height, although not the cause - definitely a contributing factor.

 

[pmv]

Seems its critically important that regulations be very tightly drawn, and that those responsible for them keep up with what happens in the industry with technology and fashion. Because if you give any leeway or leave any loophole, someone somewhere in the chain of contracts and sub-contracts will take full advantage of that to increase profits. The system is run on the profit-motive, so that's what will be put first by the system overall, _even_ if some individuals along the way might want to think about safety or want to maintain professional standards.

Seems as if those at the top (i.e. the government) just weren't paying attention, while those who knew what was going on had a vested interest in not doing much about it (a lot like the financial crisis in that respect).

 

[xthetenth]

Seems its critically important that regulations be very tightly drawn, and that those responsible for them keep up with what happens in the industry with technology and fashion. Because if you give any leeway or leave any loophole, someone somewhere in the chain of contracts and sub-contracts will take full advantage of that to increase profits. The system is run on the profit-motive, so that's what will be put first by the system overall, _even_ if some individuals along the way might want to think about safety or want to maintain professional standards.

Seems as if those at the top (i.e. the government) just weren't paying attention, while those who knew what was going on had a vested interest in not doing much about it (a lot like the financial crisis in that respect).

The free market is a powerful tool to deliver whatever is most profitable, so you'd better have the regulations in place to make disaster unprofitable, even in the short term.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

The free market is a powerful tool to deliver whatever is most profitable, so you'd better have the regulations in place to make disaster unprofitable, even in the short term.

Historically, especially in the UK, but probably in many other countries as well. Various disasters, over the last 500 years (and longer), are often what sparks massive change in the laws and/or the way things are done.

E.g. Real/original Great Fire of London, 1666
Plague of London, etc etc.

Hence those and other things, causes major new laws and maybe big structural changes.

E.g. Sewers to be implemented in London.

Ironically the set of new (in the 1960's and 1970's) towers, of which one has just burnt down, were actually themselves, built because some of the London Slums in the 1960's, were being knocked down and removed. So it was to provide mass housing, for the less well off, in that part of London.

The picture is trying to show the poor condition of original housing at front of picture, and what the new towers looked like (NOT in London or the one that burnt down, but the concept should be the same).

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008

Angry protesters attempt to storm town hall
Posted at16:26


Demonstrators have marched to Kensington Town Hall, and some have managed to enter the foyer, a BBC reporter at the scene reports.

I guess this is very understandable under the circumstances. Because (I would imagine), many people feel that the authorities have done a very poor job of protecting people.
I myself am annoyed about it. They have been very badly let down.

Photograph (source was BBC website and then ... https://twitter.com/i/web/status/875739417650110464) is of current protest:

 

[xthetenth]

Man, there's some old goodies that look really awful in light of this:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-i-will-kill-off-safety-culture-6285238.html

"But the key about health and safety is not just the rules, the laws and regulations - it's also the culture of fear many businesses have about health and safety."

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Man, there's some old goodies that look really awful in light of this:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-i-will-kill-off-safety-culture-6285238.html

From your link:

David Cameron: I will kill off safety culture
'We need to realise, collectively, that we cannot eliminate risk and that some accidents are inevitable,' PM says

David Cameron today said that his new year's resolution was to 'kill off the health and safety culture for good'

In the light of what happened, TERRIBLE quotes from early 2012.

I have sometimes read that safety comes in waves. There is some terrible disaster(s), so things become VERY safe.
Then over time, and with few/no accidents/deaths, the safety is gradually reduced/eroded. Getting weaker and weaker, and hence cheaper and easier, every year. Until the cycle repeats again (e.g. twenty or thirty years later), when safety gets so weak that suddenly very bad things start to happen again.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

VERY angry crowds, shouting at or near the current UK's prime minister, Theresa May. Over this terrible tower disaster.

I'm disappointed she did not address and speak to/with them, because she should be the prime minister for EVERYONE who is located within the UK, for any reason. Not who she thinks she should address.

On the other hand, they did appear very excited and potentially out of control. So if that was the reason she avoided them, then I guess it is fair enough.

Under the circumstances, I really think she should talk to people, close to the tower incident. Especially as the government (and hence her), are probably at least partially responsible or more than that.

Theresa May's situation, has been weakened by her only getting enough seats to NEARLY be in power and having to arrange to get some other seats by deals with other parties. It is quite possible, this is her last year in office, time will tell. She might stay on.

Original Source (I used youtube above as I was not sure if the videos on the BBC, play outside of the UK).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40310533/theresa-may-heckled-by-angry-crowds

 

[WelshBloke]

The death toll may now exceed 60. Apparently at least one source (TheSun newspaper), thinks it is more like 100.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473

I'll be surprised if the death toll doesn't top at least 250. Happy but surprised.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

I'll be surprised if the death toll doesn't top at least 250. Happy but surprised.

I would imagine, that the fire brigade and/or government, have a provisional figure at the moment.

I made the following figures up, to illustrate the concept. Something on the lines of between 70 and 170 are expected to be the final figures.

So they could announce that approximately 120 people (or whatever their figures are), have died. But we may have to significantly change this figure, up or down, as the inquiries continue.

Rather than leave it up in the air (initially saying 6 people had died, I think). When it was blindingly obvious the figure would be way higher than that.

I think a famous singer, Lily Allen, is controversially saying she thinks it is 150, who have died.

I hope it is as few as possible, anyway.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

London fire: 58 missing, presumed dead - police

So they are now saying the final (for now) death toll is 58.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40315194

They are warning that the total could climb further, as they search the tower, over the next few weeks.