LOL @ Chicago, striking teachers

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unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
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If the Chicago Public School teachers are so unhappy and so deserving of more money, why don't they just go somewhere else where they can get paid what they think they are worth?

Could it be that no employer agrees with the unionized teachers view of their own worth?

Or could it be that the good teachers with options have already left?

The fact is that the evaluation system for in the Chicago Public School teachers hasn't been updated for 40 years.

Does anyone think that fighting for the status quo of no accountability and more money is likely to be a winning strategy?

Or as the Chicago Tribune has put it:

"The knottiest issue in the strike is whether Chicago will stay on the national reform path. Or will Emanuel and CPS, under pressure to restore normalcy, cave to teacher demands and doom another generation of children to classrooms with ineffective teachers who are nearly impossible to dismiss?"

Me, I'm for better education for students.

And that makes me against the union and their fight to preserve the status quo.

Uno
 

JoeyP

Senior member
Aug 2, 2012
386
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So when the teachers get Moar Money, will we see test scores jump higher? Graduation rates? Is teacher salary holding back advances in these areas?
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
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And where is your proof of your claim? Do you have any? Are you even capable of posting a response with anything other than your made up drivel? Since you seem incapable of responding to any of my calls for you to back up your claims with evidence I am beginning to think that you can't back anything up and when someone calls you on your apparent lies you just ignore it - move on and make up more BS



Again - I'd like to see proof. I can tell you that the entire State of Michigan requires continuing education because it has been shown to improve teacher skill but public schools can't pay for it because it has been shown that it doesn't improve teacher skill*

(Yes - the state government does have two completely different stances on continuing education)

When a teacher that can't get fired, gets a raise just because of an advance degree, because thats whats in the union contract, thats the state/city etc paying for it.


Furthermore, where have I moved on? hmm please tell me. What Lies have I spoken?

none thats right.

You public teacher union puppets just keep repeating the same garbage thinking everyone is fooled.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
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Really? I am sure you have some sort of link to back that up? Just like the link backing up the 'for every teacher that works long hours there are 10 that dont'? Or do you consider yourself above proving your claims?

Let's see - who's word do I take on how long teacher's work? Some random idiot on the forum who can't provide links to his sources or Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation?

http://www.scholastic.com/primarysources/pdfs/Gates2012_full.pdf

It seems they found the average teacher works 53 hour weeks. (Just during the school day. Does not include any summer work/coaching/extra curricular activities etc)

Lets compare that to the BLS average america:
http://www.bls.gov/tus/charts/chart1.pdf

Ah - 43 hours.

So - lets see if that 'only works 9 months a year' holds true with some simple math:

43x52 = 2236 hours worked a year for the average American
53x39.13 = 2073 worked year for the average teacher

So - it seems you were off by 'only' 3x the correct amount under the best case circumstances for your claim. I guess thats ok. Its not like any of that information was easily available after 5 minutes of googling.

Now - consider that the average teacher in Illinois is ~43 years old. If most of them started out of college they will need to be on their way to their third renewal. If they choose one of the three grad class routes they would be anywhere from 30-66% of the way to a Masters if they do not have one already. IMO this more than covers the 8% spread vs a Bachelor's degree



I think that would be a positive program. Just imagine the outrage at people being responsible for their own kids though...

Lets use apples to apples.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/201...onals-and-were-not-counting-summer-vacations/

Teachers themselves report a mean work week of 43.7 hours, versus 44.8 hours for non-teachers with a college degree.

So lets do the math again you union sheeple

Average college degree:
44.8x52 = 2329.6 hours
Average teacher
43.7x40= 1748


Wonder what that comes out to...

drum roll. 75% less.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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any teacher reporting a work week of 43.7 hours is including only inside the classroom./building.

That is not including work from home. Another 1-2 hours a day easily.
 

Ryun

Member
Nov 28, 2008
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I don't really know anything about the situation, but there's one thing that's getting on my nerves with this thread:

...with a group that's complaining about work hours when they only work 8 months out of the year.

Sorry to single you out, Nintendesert, as other people have said similar things but my point is that for many teachers this simply isn't true.

My girlfriend (who is a teacher of about 3 years now) is shifted around to other curriculum every year. When school is out for summer she maybe gives herself a week off before she's working on her lesson plans for next year. It takes her 2 months+ just to get everything setup for the first semester, and she's constantly adding to that after school starts. Some of her coworkers have similar schedules. Probably because they're relatively new and haven't been able to lock down a curriculum yet. Just because they don't have to go to work doesn't mean they're not working.

She gets into school every morning at 7 to work on the day's lesson and leaves around 4 (sometimes 5). Then depending on the week, she's got hours or grading to do. She's a bit of an over achiever, but this schedule is not atypical. 50 to 60 hour weeks are not uncommon.

On top of that, it's next to impossible to take off if you need to take a sick day and even then (for my girlfriend's school district anyway) they only get 2 days for the year. They almost didn't let her leave school for the day when my mother passed away (not direct family but they were close).

I won't even get into how difficult the students and parents can be but make no mistake: there are many, many teachers out there that work their asses off.

Again, I don't know anything about the situation in Chicago but if the district is requiring them to work an extra month I can certainly see why there would be outrage.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
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any teacher reporting a work week of 43.7 hours is including only inside the classroom./building.

That is not including work from home. Another 1-2 hours a day easily.

read the survey.


Most teachers claiming they work more then that are lairs. And the people that belive them are fools.

Just like everywhere else in life, theres a bell curve of teachers. Those that do alot of work are somewhere in the 10% range, the vast middle 80% and the bottom 10%.

The top teachers, and top of the middle might work long hours, the vast middle averages out to maybe 40, and the bottom, put in what they have too, and dont care because unless they kill a kid, they wont get fired.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,240
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When a teacher that can't get fired, gets a raise just because of an advance degree, because thats whats in the union contract, thats the state/city etc paying for it.


Furthermore, where have I moved on? hmm please tell me. What Lies have I spoken?

none thats right.

You public teacher union puppets just keep repeating the same garbage thinking everyone is fooled.


if the school doesnt like it they shouldnt have agreed to it

many places pay employees more when they get applicable certifications/education to bolster their credentials, why would teaching be different?

hell Illinois requires you take to do XX amount of hours of applicable learning to be able to renew your certificate

the big deal with this is the merit pay per kid performance

this isnt Lake Forest, its freakin chicago

most of the schools are not in great areas, have bad graduation rates, and its NOT becuase of the teachers

its the ghettos. You want to not get a raise because your student was too busy gangbaning to come to class enough to do better on a test he doesnt care about?

sounds fair right? or maybe your classroom got stacked with some of the special needs kids, who obv wont be showing much improvement on the std test(which many of them still take) so you dont get a raise, but teacher across the hall who didnt get those kids does.....very fair

merit pay like that just won't ever work out right/fair.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
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its the ghettos. You want to not get a raise because your student was too busy gangbaning to come to class enough to do better on a test he doesnt care about?

sounds fair right? or maybe your classroom got stacked with some of the special needs kids, who obv wont be showing much improvement on the std test(which many of them still take) so you dont get a raise, but teacher across the hall who didnt get those kids does.....very fair

merit pay like that just won't ever work out right/fair.


Is your point that some of these institutions that are called schools are not about education but are really just government funded childcare?

And that some of these people that are called teachers don't teach but really function as child care workers?

Just asking.

Uno
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,348
3,426
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Wait...you are quoting numbers from the ATUS - where people self reported the hours worked?

I've seen one of those studies. A bunch of self reported hours worked. We all know that self reporting is soo acruate.

So I am confused. You deride studies using self reported hours worked but then show a study using self reported hours worked as fact? I am going to need you to make up your mind about whether self reported surveys are accurate or not

Come on - this stuff is child's play. Surely you can't be this stupid?

So lets do the math again you union sheeple

Average college degree:
44.8x52 = 2329.6 hours
Average teacher
43.7x40= 1748


Wonder what that comes out to...

drum roll. 75% less.

Perhaps you can be that stupid. That's not 75% less - thats 25% less. 75% less would be 582.4 hours

Edit: On further reading of the survey you linked used a single methodology to generate its data. It called someone and asked them about what they worked 'yesterday'. Thats it. Seems a bit thin to me...

This "designated person" is interviewed by telephone once
about his or her activities on the day before the interview

It also specifically excludes any work done by teachers related to school during scheduled breaks during the school year. It also excludes work done by the teacher for extra curricular actives, tutoring, coaching etc.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,348
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Furthermore, where have I moved on? hmm please tell me. What Lies have I spoken?

Well, you can't seem to back up the 'for every teachers that puts in longer hours, there are 10 that dont.' so I can only assume you are lying. If you would actually like to post evidence for your claim then thats a different story
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
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Well, you can't seem to back up the 'for every teachers that puts in longer hours, there are 10 that dont.' so I can only assume you are lying. If you would actually like to post evidence for your claim then thats a different story


A bit arrogant don't you think?

To accuse aomeone that hasn't done the research that you requested of being a liar?

Its not like you have citations for all the allegations that you have made.


Uno
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Well, you can't seem to back up the 'for every teachers that puts in longer hours, there are 10 that dont.' so I can only assume you are lying. If you would actually like to post evidence for your claim then thats a different story


by those standards your both a liar, and idiot because you backed up nothing.

What profession with a large population of individuals somehow has all their employees working 60 hour weeks (and not forced) and are the best and brightest in the world?

it doesn't happen.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...-strike-reaches-day-4-20120912,0,482612.story

more proof teachers and the union are just lazy SOB's

"TU chief: Deal likely today but classes may not resume until Monday"

Why not go back tommorow? Oh thats right, having a long weekend is better then working.

Remeber 'its all about the kids'....

except when it comes to working, teaching, making money. Then all those come first.

when it comes to the teachers union it is NOT about the kids. never has and never will.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,240
2
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Is your point that some of these institutions that are called schools are not about education but are really just government funded childcare?

And that some of these people that are called teachers don't teach but really function as child care workers?

Just asking.

Uno

its not necessarily what they are about, and I have no doubt alot of them try. But I also have little doubt that its what they are used for by some.

My high schools demographics were very mixed, and alot of lower income students started dropping out at age 16, why? because they could get a job. they werent at school for education, they were there because the state makes them

in large places like chicago, you cant enforce truancy very well, especially when they have real stuff going on in those hoods, like the record # of murders chicago is dealing with right now.

the real shame about cutting programs at those schools like fine arts, band, and some sports, is that its the only hook alot of kids have to even get them to go to school since there is no one at home making them go

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...-strike-reaches-day-4-20120912,0,482612.story

more proof teachers and the union are just lazy SOB's

"TU chief: Deal likely today but classes may not resume until Monday"

Why not go back tommorow? Oh thats right, having a long weekend is better then working.

Remeber 'its all about the kids'....

except when it comes to working, teaching, making money. Then all those come first.

well for one, the head of the teachers union realistically speaks for no one but his/herself

when the president speaks as the president he 'speaks for me as an american' but that doesnt mean I share the opinion

second....seriously. you think any kid is going to take a 1 day week seriously? they all know what you apparantly dont, is that its a total waste to try and do it, and opening school isnt free. might as well let it go, not waste everyones time and money when no one is going to take it seriously anyways

lets just hope they agree and get back to work

when it comes to the teachers union it is NOT about the kids. never has and never will.


:rolleyes:

its the teachers union, not the students union

alot of things that are good for teachers, are good for students, like lower class size for example

also, while thats MORE true than it should be, its simply not actually true, its a nice catch phrase though. words like never and always shouldnt really be used here

as long there are teachers that care about students, and there are plenty, than the unions views will benefit them atleast somewhat(though less so the larger they get, CPS TU is probably 90% worthless like the rest of anything with the name CHICAGO in it)
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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read the survey.


Most teachers claiming they work more then that are lairs. And the people that belive them are fools.

Just like everywhere else in life, theres a bell curve of teachers. Those that do alot of work are somewhere in the 10% range, the vast middle 80% and the bottom 10%.

The top teachers, and top of the middle might work long hours, the vast middle averages out to maybe 40, and the bottom, put in what they have too, and dont care because unless they kill a kid, they wont get fired.

I know what the survey states;

I also know how decent quality teachers operate.
There are 5 generations within my family spread all over the country in both city, rural and urban

Not one has put in less than 50+ hrs a week.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Is your point that some of these institutions that are called schools are not about education but are really just government funded childcare?

And that some of these people that are called teachers don't teach but really function as child care workers?

Just asking.

Uno

They try to teach; but the ability of the students is very limited.
How do you teach a 16yr old that has the mental capability of a 8 yr old.

You can not put him in a second/third grade class room. Disruptive.
A person that is skilled at teching a 8yr child does not have the needed skill set to work with a 8yr child in a 16 yr old boy frame
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,348
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A bit arrogant don't you think?

To accuse aomeone that hasn't done the research that you requested of being a liar?

Its not like you have citations for all the allegations that you have made.

Uno

None of my citation-less 'allegations' have been called into question. If you would like to question a statement I have made that does not have a source listed feel free to do so and I will address it.

Furthermore, he made the claims - he needs to back them up. My request was not for him to do research but to site the source of his information. He made the claim - where did that claim or the information come from? That's kinda how things are supposed to work. It would seem to me if someone wants to have a valid stance they should be able to substantiate their position beyond an appeal to authority. If he cannot provide a basis for his claims - which he has not done - then the information should be considered either anecdotal or made up (lies)

by those standards your both a liar, and idiot because you backed up nothing.

I am not sure you understand the definition of 'nothing'. I have provided links to the NEA, BLS, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation as well as a few others. All of these back up my claim

Also - where do we stand on the accepting survey results? Have you decided if they are valid or not?
 
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michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
None of my citation-less 'allegations' have been called into question. If you would like to question a statement I have made that does not have a source listed feel free to do so and I will address it.

Furthermore, he made the claims - he needs to back them up. My request was not for him to do research but to site the source of his information. He made the claim - where did that claim or the information come from? That's kinda how things are supposed to work. It would seem to me if someone wants to have a valid stance they should be able to substantiate their position beyond an appeal to authority. If he cannot provide a basis for his claims - which he has not done - then the information should be considered either anecdotal or made up (lies)



I am not sure you understand the definition of 'nothing'. I have provided links to the NEA, BLS, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation as well as a few others. All of these back up my claim

Also - where do we stand on the accepting survey results? Have you decided if they are valid or not?

I question all of the self reported survey validity. Since everyone thinks they work more then they do, and love to exaggerate, especially teachers, they are the biggest blowhards in the world.

But if we are going to do a compression, I give more weight to the BLS report that covers all/most workers in a more consistent manner then one like the NEA, who's objectivity should be questioned.


so far I have shown that teachers work less, using data that your side claims to be valid.

If you have no issues with that form & method of data, then you should accept that teachers work less, and stop calling me a liar.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
I know what the survey states;

I also know how decent quality teachers operate.
There are 5 generations within my family spread all over the country in both city, rural and urban

Not one has put in less than 50+ hrs a week.

there's your key word

for every one of those quality teachers there are tons that just show up and give worksheets, or ignore kids.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,348
3,426
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I question all of the self reported survey validity. Since everyone thinks they work more then they do, and love to exaggerate, especially teachers, they are the biggest blowhards in the world.

But if we are going to do a compression, I give more weight to the BLS report that covers all/most workers in a more consistent manner then one like the NEA, who's objectivity should be questioned.

What NEA report? I never linked an NEA report on hours worked.

so far I have shown that teachers work less, using data that your side claims to be valid.

If you have no issues with that form & method of data, then you should accept that teachers work less, and stop calling me a liar.

Actually I showed several deficiencies in the BLS report. I never claimed it was valid representation of the total work done by teachers in a year so I don't know where you got that idea from.

I'll expand on one of my points of contention for you. According to the Primary sources study 43% of teachers participate in extracurricular activities. These hours were excluded from the BLS report (By their own admission) and add an estimated 7.5 hours a week for those teachers

http://www.scholastic.com/primarysources/pdfs/Gates2012_full.pdf

Furthermore - hours worked was not my contention with you about the lying (or making shit up). Perhaps you noticed my constant mentioning of it the the below quote?

for every teachers that puts in longer hours, there are 10 that dont

If you can provide a source for that then I will stop calling you a liar
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
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None of my citation-less 'allegations' have been called into question. If you would like to question a statement I have made that does not have a source listed feel free to do so and I will address it.

Furthermore, he made the claims - he needs to back them up. My request was not for him to do research but to site the source of his information. He made the claim - where did that claim or the information come from? That's kinda how things are supposed to work. It would seem to me if someone wants to have a valid stance they should be able to substantiate their position beyond an appeal to authority. If he cannot provide a basis for his claims - which he has not done - then the information should be considered either anecdotal or made up (lies).


I haven't asked you to support any of your statements because I don't find any of them worthwhile.

My point was that a statement without a citation is different than a lie. It is, in fact, an unsupported statement.

Your position that everyone that makes a statement with which you disagree must furnish you with a citation while you don't need to support all of your own statements seems to me to be inconsistent.

And when you call someone that refuses to do your research for you liar, I think that that is arrogant.

If that clashes with your notion of "kinda how things are supposed to work," then I'm sorry.

I just find name calling unpersuasive and unattractive.

Uno